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The Brexit Thread

Alsty said:
An example of new bureaucracy and red tape in action... companies delivering from the EU to the UK now have to register with HMRC and pay tax at point of sale rather than on importation. Some EU companies have decided they may as well not bother with the hassle.
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Yeah this whole thing makes no sense to me, what advantage is there for the overseas company really, more hassle. Brits are the ones losing out by no longer being able to puchase.
 
jon81uk said:
Yeah this whole thing makes no sense to me, what advantage is there for the overseas company really, more hassle. Brits are the ones losing out by no longer being able to puchase.
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The sense side of it is if importers are allowed to sell to uk customers without paying tax they are at a massive advantage over UK sellers paying tax. If you ran a UK business you'd not want your competitors with that advantage, if you ran the UK you'd not want your own businesses hindered. Understandable really.
 
But that works both ways. As many UK businesses who did exporting with the EU found out.

A lot of businesses with owners who voted to Leave have found this out to their sudden dismay.
 
pluk said:
The sense side of it is if importers are allowed to sell to uk customers without paying tax they are at a massive advantage over UK sellers paying tax. If you ran a UK business you'd not want your competitors with that advantage, if you ran the UK you'd not want your own businesses hindered. Understandable really.
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But previously if I bought from the USA then customs checked the parcel on entry and worked with the courier to collect the VAT, the courier charged a fee for this. If buying from the EU you just paid the tax of the country you are buying in. Neither of these resulted in additional work for the retailer (just the courier).
Now the retailer and courier need to do and pay extra to sell to the UK so many places will not bother, less choice of places to buy things for British people.
 
jon81uk said:
But previously if I bought from the USA then customs checked the parcel on entry and worked with the courier to collect the VAT, the courier charged a fee for this. If buying from the EU you just paid the tax of the country you are buying in. Neither of these resulted in additional work for the retailer (just the courier).
Now the retailer and courier need to do and pay extra to sell to the UK so many places will not bother, less choice of places to buy things for British people.
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Yes, I know that, that's the disadvantage, the advantage is as per my previous post. Less choice for the uk consumer, better conditions and fairness for the uk business competitors.

As a fairly regular purchaser of weird and wonderful beers from across Europe (and the world) I lose this choice but uk sellers are likely to gain my custom and the treasury gain my tax money. I might be at a personal disadvantage but overall it's probably better for the UK economy and retailers.

It's this change that allows us to abolish the tampon tax; there are minimum taxation rules across the EU to try to stop this sort of advantage, but as EU tax regulations are minimums and maximum rather than an absolute rate there has always been disparity, alcohol being a major example of this. Retailers of Europe would not be happy if everyone there could buy their feminine hygene products from the UK at a 5% tax free discount, so our retailers cannot sell to them directly, EU tax would have to be applied.

Winners and losers, but it's pretty much fair enough.
 
pluk said:
Yes, I know that, that's the disadvantage, the advantage is as per my previous post. Less choice for the uk consumer, better conditions and fairness for the uk business competitors.

As a fairly regular purchaser of weird and wonderful beers from across Europe (and the world) I lose this choice but uk sellers are likely to gain my custom and the treasury gain my tax money. I might be at a personal disadvantage but overall it's probably better for the UK economy and retailers.
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I don't think it changes things that significantly, people who like Belgian beer will still want Belgian beer and people who want British ale will probably still want British ale. Its just now a lot harder to import things.

Also there is less competition now so prices could go up even further if a seller of something no longer ships to the UK, specialist importers may jack their prices up or manufacturers of similar items might realise there is less competition and increase prices.

pluk said:
It's this change that allows us to abolish the tampon tax; there are minimum taxation rules across the EU to try to stop this sort of advantage, but as EU tax regulations are minimums and maximum rather than an absolute rate there has always been disparity, alcohol being a major example of this. Retailers of Europe would not be happy if everyone there could buy their feminine hygene products from the UK at a 5% tax free discount, so our retailers cannot sell to them directly, EU tax would have to be applied.
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Republic of Ireland already has zero tax on tampons as it was set before the EU introduced minimum VAT levels, but I don't think there was any sellers shipping them across to the UK to save that 5% tax as the cost of shipping isn't worth it.
Its not like the alcohol tax where it made it very worthwhile to do a booze cruise to get wine in France as their duty on alcohol was much lower than ours.
 
Alsty said:
Re: "tampon tax", the EU agreed that taxation on sanitary products could be reduced to zero anyway. This was a change the UK pushed for and got agreement on, as members of the EU. The timetable on this has slipped a bit due to the Brexit distraction (was supposed to be 2017) but the European Commision has still published proposals with an implementation date potentially as early as January 2022. [Source]
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Except we couldn't change it, because althogh agreed in 2016, members are still not actually allowed to do so in 2021, and not anticipated to be able to do so for at least another year. 6 years later. It might be a small fry matter in the scheme of things, but you couldn't really ask for a better example of the mess of burochrasy the EU is, and how it ties decision making of member states even when the change is so simple and so obviously the correct thing to do.


jon81uk said:
I don't think it changes things that significantly, people who like Belgian beer will still want Belgian beer and people who want British ale will probably still want British ale. Its just now a lot harder to import things.

Also there is less competition now so prices could go up even further if a seller of something no longer ships to the UK, specialist importers may jack their prices up or manufacturers of similar items might realise there is less competition and increase prices.
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It's full of mights and coulds, isn't it? The UK craft beer sales market is already highly competitive which should keep prices in check. Im not saying it's all rainbows, prices may rise with increased import costs and UK VAT, choice may fall if some dont think it's worth their while, but the playingfield should be level for UK producers and retailers. Of course there will be demand for specific products from across Europe, and if they want to sell to us and we are happy to pay what it costs them it'll still make its way here. It has more of an affect on direct to consumer imports rather than commercial distribution imports do the channel changes and we end up paying the middle man distributor/importer, although that is how the vast majority of craft beer comes here already anyway.
 
pluk said:
Except we couldn't change it, because althogh agreed in 2016, members are still not actually allowed to do so in 2021, and not anticipated to be able to do so for at least another year. 6 years later.
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To be fair it was the UK calling for the change and after the referendum the UK stopped pushing for it. Had we remained then I'm sure it would've happened sooner as we would've kept the pressure on. For whatever reason, other EU countries didn't pick it up. Maybe it's not a priority issue to them. Who knows. It does show that the UK had a voice though and could effect change as a member if it wanted to.

There is of course a bureaucracy when things operate on large scale, but conversely the aims of the single market and customs union are to remove inefficiencies. You may argue that the UK can now be more responsive and governed on a more local scale, but we have traded that with more friction when buying and sending goods and services across the Channel. Swings and roundabouts.
 
Alsty said:
It does show that the UK had a voice though and could effect change as a member if it wanted to.
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With the timescales and what little was trying to be achieved there's a good argument that this shows the exact opposite of you conclusion!

Alsty said:
Swings and roundabouts.
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I quite agree. I don't mean to come across as pro brexit because I'm not, but I don't see it as the inevitable unmitigated disaster and wall of negativity that many others do.
 
pluk said:
I quite agree. I don't mean to come across as pro brexit because I'm not, but I don't see it as the inevitable unmitigated disaster and wall of negativity that many others do.
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For me, I am disappointed that there has not been and there is still no plan that details what we can do now we have "taken back control" to borrow a phrase. Imagine some of that is down to the pandemic, but there wasn't much prior to that. Both May and Johnson set out domestic agendas that could seemingly have been delivered within the EU.

It's crippled our politics and some aspects of the country for the best part of six years and in return we've got more red tape, a devalued currency, cheaper tampons and a few more fish.

Still feels like a means without an end.
 
Rick said:
For me, I am disappointed that there has not been and there is still no plan that details what we can do now we have "taken back control" to borrow a phrase.
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I couldn't help myself ... so decided to go looking, somewhat horrified to find this:

"Then there are the regulatory barriers – everything from planning restrictions that inflate the cost of housing to staff ratio rules that give us the most expensive childcare in Europe. I could fill a longer article than this one simply by listing them. Consider, as just one subsection, the EU laws we can now disapply: the Temporary Workers’ Directive, the REACH Directive, the End of Life Vehicles Directive, the droit de suite rules and other regulations that hurt London’s fine arts market, the Alternative Investment Fund Managers Directive, chunks of MiFID II, GDPR, the bans on GM."

https://www.conservativehome.com/th...edom-and-grow-ourselves-out-of-this-mess.html

It's starting.
 
Yeah I was going to post that article, this is the Tory lobby for stripping protections that I fear. It is still just a lobby and the government are acutely aware of public opinion but I guarantee the next step will be to see the Tory controlled news outlets (everything bar the Guardian, Mirror and Independent in the mainstream) hit with some propaganda on how companies should have freedom and market forces will ensure people don’t lose their rights and see how it plays out with the masses.
 
Dave said:
Yeah I was going to post that article, this is the Tory lobby for stripping protections that I fear. It is still just a lobby and the government are acutely aware of public opinion but I guarantee the next step will be to see the Tory controlled news outlets (everything bar the Guardian, Mirror and Independent in the mainstream) hit with some propaganda on how companies should have freedom and market forces will ensure people don’t lose their rights and see how it plays out with the masses.
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It is certainly a lobby, no doubt about that, but that particular member of the lobby has just been ennobled by the Prime Minister.

Members of the ERG haven't shown their cards yet, I think that will come over time.
 
OK, I really tried to keep my gob shut on this topic, as I know I am in the minority here...but here we go.

In my mind, we are now a little bit safer from the rise of the far right nutters that are increasing their vote in Europe.

We were the first to start Covid vaccinations in Europe, we didn't have to wait for the EU machine to give the nod before we could start. Support within the European community with Covid... oh how the rest of Europe ran to support Italy at the start of the pandemic, other governments in the community simply turned their backs.
I am happy to be rid of that level of support.

We are now free from the horrors of the C.A.P., that took money from the working man and gave it to the farmers...we all know how poor the farmers are. Artificial price setting, above the real market rate, made a massive surplus of produce, that was often dumped on the world market at less than true value, affecting local economies drastically in less developed nations. I'm alright Jack, but stuff the rest of the planet.
The food mountains and lakes of the past, that rotted while millions of people starved round the world, we aren't involved in it any more. I remember the queues of people on benefits waiting for their "free" government meat, butter and cheese...that they had actually already paid for in inflated prices.

If Brexit reduces our air travel within Europe, great...we kill the planet and burn up the resources of the planet for fun, resources needed for future generations. Blair wanted to realistically tax aviation fuel when in office, to stop the crazy situation of ground transport for essentials being highly taxed, but leisure flight fuel being tax free. The bean counters in the Treasury said we couldn't do it on our own, as the airlines would stop UK refueling, and top up in Europe at a cheaper rate. He took the matter to Europe, who agreed it was a major issue and it would be addressed...still waiting a couple of decades later, absolutely nothing came of it. Glad to be rid of the nasty dinosaur that won't change, despite spouting bollocks about environmental reform...twenty years of cobblers and ever cheaper flights. Good for coaster chasing individuals, but pretty crap for the planet as a whole. I try to avoid plane shaming on here, but there you go, another plus for the planet.

We now have one less level of administrators who are non productive to pay.

If there are shortages of fresh goods from abroad, great. Less carbon miles in the food economy, get your tomatoes from Ormskirk, not Spain, less pollution, more local employment.

Things are going to get worse before they get better, and I am happy with that. We are two weeks in, and a pandemic makes the situation less than clear cut.

In the last few weeks, (including recently on here), I have been accused of being a racist because of how I voted, and I am apparently a right wing idiot who was tricked into voting the way I did.

Wrong on both counts.
 
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