The Brexit Thread

[Alsty]

You might be wondering why I say this. I say this because the government recently revealed a list of things they’re planning on doing now we’re out of the EU, and among them were things such as returning the crown to pint glasses and returning to solely using the imperial system (interestingly, Britain’s move to metric actually pre-dated Britain joining the EU by 8 years, in spite of the metric system often being seen as EU red tape imposed upon an unwitting British public).

These two examples are just things put out for the right-wing press in this country to lap up, providing a nice distraction from the actual crises in the country. They won't actually come to fruition.

Firstly, you could always print whatever you wanted on pint glasses anyway (and can any of the Brexit voting members of society honestly say they even noticed the Crown had gone, let alone cared?).

Secondly, the weights and measures systems won't force units to be in imperial. They'll just allow imperial to be used without requiring it to also be metric. After all, everything we import from the EU is in metric. Will they print imperial on their packaging just for us? (Spoiler: no). Will manufacturers in this country print solely in imperial? No, not if they want to limit their export market. The manufacturers in the UK will probably just use imperial and metric, like they could do before anyway. Perhaps the only thing that could change is some market traders, greengrocers and the like could choose to sell only in imperial, but it would mean paying for new scales etc so I can't see many doing it except for some hardcore 'metric-martyrs'.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that voted for Brexit on the basis of these trivial things because they are symbolic of us having control. The problem is, while people may prefer blue passports over red, it does nothing to help bridge the economic deficit Brexit has caused.

When it comes to Brexit, a lot of people (and it seems to include the Government) are guilty of something called bike-shedding.

The term comes from a fictional example of a committee approving the plans for a nuclear power plant, and the committee spends significantly more time discussing trivial things like the design and colour of the bike sheds rather than the more complicated things such as the reactor core. This is because it's easy for people to understand and make contributions to the trivial things they understand, less so for things they don't.

Blue passports, imperial measures, Crown glasses, UK instead of GB stickers all amount to bike-shedding in my opinion, whereas things such as trade policy and trade agreements, resolving the supply chain and labour shortage issues, resolving issues relating to fishing and farming, and resolving the contradiction of the North Ireland border are examples of the things that get unresolved.

 

[WillPS]

Thats the problem we are now seeing. I acknowledged when I voted out that the next few years after would be tough for this very reason.

Gas we need to rebuild our storage capabilities we once had again - or start investing in green solutions but given China and Russia are looking more like our adversaries in the not too distant future it would be crazy to rely on them to heat our homes in the winter!

They fuel crisis was not a crisis. A handful of stations ran dry for a day or two and the media caused panic.

I do think we as a nation have become so hard to having everything we want and when we want it we just panic when something isn’t available, even if it’s just for a day. We want our clothes cheap and delivered the same day - but then we also say we care about our planet and all things eco - but don’t care that my item was made thousands of miles away by someone on a tiny wage, then shipped by a boat using diesel, then driven by a lorry using diesel, then delivered to my house by a van using diesel, but we don’t care then, we just want the item quickly and cheaply and out eco concerns suddenly go out the window.

Surely of Brexit means in the long term we start making things here again and growing things here again resulting in less transport of goods then that’s a good thing not only for us but the planet too.

It’s not just endemic to the U.K. but it still beggars belief that most of the stuff we buy is still made in China and it’s cheaper to make it there and transport it so far than to make it in the U.K. I bought a new toothbrush the other day in Boots - even the majority of those were made in China when I looked before I found one that wasn’t. I mean seriously - have things got to the point in the U.K. where we have decimated our engineering, industry and production so much that we can make a frigging toothbrush here?!?! We have some great engineers, inventors, scientists in this country - why are we not using them?

So midterm solution is that we have to put up with it and look forward to brighter days ahead once we become more independent. And if the pack of strawberries we usually buy isn’t on the shelf in Tesco in the middle of December then so be it, adapt and buy something else for the time being.

One final comment , thinking about being in a global world - can we even do this on the future? While money can be sent digitally between countries people cannot. We are constantly having it hammered in to us we should be travelling as much as we are around the world due to emissions, use our cars less, blah blah blah so in the future, isn’ if people are more restricted to how much they can travel then again, the U.K. becoming more self sufficient can only be a good thing?

And I’m no way anti EU. I’ve been around most of the EU countries in the past and loved visiting them, for me Brexit was more about Britain being a stronger country in the long term without its reliance on others

I hear your point on the permitted/encouraged run down of British manufacture being a long term mistake in policy, and I agree that was a poor decision and/or bit of indecision. It seems strange to suggest this was an unavoidable bit collateral with being members of the EU though given that other EU nations - notably Germany - seem to have no such issue.

Let's go with your desire to scrub your teeth with a rod of plastic injection moulded in Britain with no external dependencies - where does the plastic for the injection moulding machine then come from? Perhaps there is some plastic production in the UK, but like all fossil-fuel derived product you are inevitably going to then have a supply chain which involves a global market.

Same goes for gas storage - I can totally agree that it was a stupid to leave it to the free market to determine whether a gas storage facility is provisioned or not, but ultimately you have to fill those tanks with something and we do not have enough domestic production to cover demand.

Even if we get to the (probable) ultimate destination of everything used at consumer level being powered by electricity, the only way we would be able to have that sort of capacity domestically would be if we immediately started building several high capacity nuclear power stations right now, ready for production in about 20 years time. It's not a hill I see many willing to die on when put in those terms.

 

[GaryH]

We are building more power stations… but again… nothing using British companies, I believe French and Chinese. Mostly Chinese. Which… when you consider we are sailing war ships in to the South China Sea and warning of conflict just seems absolutely crazy to give them access to our National infrastructure!!

That’s one of the reasons I’m not looking to buy an electric car anytime soon. The National grid won’t be able to cope once everyone gets home and plugs in!

While I agree the U.K. Will have a tough few years ahead I don’t think it will just be the U.K. with the EU also heavily reliant on gas supplies from Russia for example, other countries heavily dependent on others will struggle. I think it will be a worldwide issue for many in the next decade.

 

[AstroDan]

I don't recall any of the Brexit propagators saying "Britain will have a tough few years" if we leave. I am glad, GaryH, that you were well aware of that when you voted to leave. Unlike the liars who told us it was a land of milk and honey with no adverse effects.

I do feel that if the public at large had been told there'd be a "tough few years", it would never have been voted for.

It still amazes me this great country allows such huge constitutional change with barely half the vote.

 

[Benzin]

"Oven Ready" was the term.

Which is why agreements keep being kicked down the road to be dealt with at a later date.

 

[GaryH]

I don't recall any of the Brexit propagators saying "Britain will have a tough few years" if we leave. I am glad, GaryH, that you were well aware of that when you voted to leave. Unlike the liars who told us it was a land of milk and honey with no adverse effects.

Honestly, did people really think we would exit the EU and there wouldnt be some bumps in the road along the way? Maybe some did, but I think the majority of people did expect some disruption. However - we also have to remember that at the point the UK left the EU we were hit by Covid. Every country in the world has been hit by Covid, and Covid & Brexit together couldnt have come at a worse time.

But its easy to point everything going on at the moment to Brexit when it isnt purely the cause.


Gas and Electricity Prices - not Brexit. EU also affected. Caused mainly by an extended colder winter in Asia using up stocks in the West, but also by Russia throttling supplies to try and get the West to agree to its new Nord-2 pipeline. UK Government policy over the years hasn't helped in which gas storage was reduced significantly, and too much focus on "green" energy. Lack of wind in the North Sea lately has resulted in less power being supplied. Fire on undersea cables linked to the EU has also reduced electricity supplies.

Lorry Drivers - part Brexit, part Covid, mostly UK fault. Some drivers left due to Brexit, but the majority left to go home to loved ones over the global pandemic. Covid also resulted in stacks of applications for HGV licences being delayed in the DVLA as offices shut down, training centres closed down across the county. Too much reliance on foreign drivers over the years by UK businesses rather than train UK based workers.

Petrol Prices - not Brexit. Global demand for oil is skyrocketing as economies start to recover, but supplies of oil cant keep up with the demand, thus why fuel prices are expected to reach potentially £1.60 this winter. Middle Eastern countries need to provide more oil while we need to explore other means of transport for the future and reduce reliance on oil (which we are doing).

Food Prices - part Brexit. While Brexit no doubt has has some impact on food prices, as indicated by the CEO of Kraft foods yesterday, that food prices across the world are going up not just in the UK. As he said, while the number of people on the planet has grown hugely, the space available to grow crops to feed them all has not. Personally since Brexit I cant say that items I bought pre and post Brexit which come from the EU havent increased much and I’ve still been able to buy the majority of items I usually buy (bar the odd pack of crisps).

Medical Staff - part Brexit, part Covid, mostly U.K. - A lot of discussion about this on the radio this morning actually with one of the senior nurses from the BMA speaking. Even pre-Brexit there were close to 40,000 vacancies in the NHS.

The U.K. government over the years made it harder and less attractive to train to be a medic. Grants and bursaries reduced and we introduced a reliance of medics from overseas (particularly the Philippines) as and when we needed them. EU medics also came and worked in the U.K.

Many left when Covid hit to go and work in the medical establishments in their home countries where many continue to do so as demand due to Covid persists. Brexit also removed some of these workers from the NHS.

However the shortages now are mainly due to the years of underfunding in graduate training in the U.K. and the pressures from Covid, with many medics either on sick leave, off with stress or just quit the professional altogether.


I’ve just picked on some small areas which are hitting the news right now which people could attribute solely to Brexit but where I feel - yes - Brexit hasn’t helped… but if Covid hasn’t hit at the same time, perhaps we wouldn’t be in the position we are in now, even with Brexit.

 

[Benzin]

"EASIEST DEAL IN HISTORY" I believe was the term used (or similar).

Given the claims from those in power its no wonder some are surprised it wasn't so simple. Then putting people like Raab in.

 

[Alsty]

Honestly, did people really think we would exit the EU and there wouldnt be some bumps in the road along the way?

Let's remind ourselves what leading Brexit supporters said...

“The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want”. Michael Gove, 9/4/16.

“British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; and buy homes and settle down. There will continue to be free trade and access to the single market”. Boris Johnson, 26/6/16.

“Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy - the UK holds most of the cards”. John Redwood, 17/7/16.

“There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside”. David Davis, 10/10/16.

“The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history”. Liam Fox, 20/7/17.

 

[WillPS]

Gas and Electricity Prices - not Brexit. EU also affected. Caused mainly by an extended colder winter in Asia using up stocks in the West, but also by Russia throttling supplies to try and get the West to agree to its new Nord-2 pipeline. UK Government policy over the years hasn't helped in which gas storage was reduced significantly, and too much focus on "green" energy. Lack of wind in the North Sea lately has resulted in less power being supplied. Fire on undersea cables linked to the EU has also reduced electricity supplies.

Lorry Drivers - part Brexit, part Covid, mostly UK fault. Some drivers left due to Brexit, but the majority left to go home to loved ones over the global pandemic. Covid also resulted in stacks of applications for HGV licences being delayed in the DVLA as offices shut down, training centres closed down across the county. Too much reliance on foreign drivers over the years by UK businesses rather than train UK based workers.

Petrol Prices - not Brexit. Global demand for oil is skyrocketing as economies start to recover, but supplies of oil cant keep up with the demand, thus why fuel prices are expected to reach potentially £1.60 this winter. Middle Eastern countries need to provide more oil while we need to explore other means of transport for the future and reduce reliance on oil (which we are doing).

Food Prices - part Brexit. While Brexit no doubt has has some impact on food prices, as indicated by the CEO of Kraft foods yesterday, that food prices across the world are going up not just in the UK. As he said, while the number of people on the planet has grown hugely, the space available to grow crops to feed them all has not. Personally since Brexit I cant say that items I bought pre and post Brexit which come from the EU havent increased much and I’ve still been able to buy the majority of items I usually buy (bar the odd pack of crisps).

Medical Staff - part Brexit, part Covid, mostly U.K. - A lot of discussion about this on the radio this morning actually with one of the senior nurses from the BMA speaking. Even pre-Brexit there were close to 40,000 vacancies in the NHS.

The U.K. government over the years made it harder and less attractive to train to be a medic. Grants and bursaries reduced and we introduced a reliance of medics from overseas (particularly the Philippines) as and when we needed them. EU medics also came and worked in the U.K.

Many left when Covid hit to go and work in the medical establishments in their home countries where many continue to do so as demand due to Covid persists. Brexit also removed some of these workers from the NHS.

However the shortages now are mainly due to the years of underfunding in graduate training in the U.K. and the pressures from Covid, with many medics either on sick leave, off with stress or just quit the professional altogether.


I’ve just picked on some small areas which are hitting the news right now which people could attribute solely to Brexit but where I feel - yes - Brexit hasn’t helped… but if Covid hasn’t hit at the same time, perhaps we wouldn’t be in the position we are in now, even with Brexit.

So, other than global commodity prices, Brexit is making everything a bit worse?

 

[AstroDan]

Lord Frost makes he laugh. He signed the bloody deal in relation to GB/NI, and now look at him. What the hell is he playing at!? Why did he sign it off if it's SO bad!?

 

[GaryH]

So, other than global commodity prices, Brexit is making everything a bit worse?

I would say the pandemic has made everything worse

 

[Plastic Person]

The COVID-19 pandemic is the best thing that ever happened for Brexit voters, better even than the result itself. It'll capably help defer any responsibility for this obvious and already occurring disastrous economic and social decision for at least another decade. Maybe two, for the particularly stubborn.

 

[GaryH]

So you are saying that covid has had no impact? Because from what I’m seeing around the world, it’s impacted the economy of nearly every country in the world.

Even China is struggling to supply power to its own people at the moment due to huge demand for it, wouldn’t of happened if it wasn’t for covid. Oil is in huge demand around the world due to economies starting back up again because of covid.

Like it or not, the pandemic has added additional problems in to the mix which would have not existed before - or least not to the severity we are seeing now.

 

[WillPS]

So you are saying that covid has had no impact? Because from what I’m seeing around the world, it’s impacted the economy of nearly every country in the world.

Even China is struggling to supply power to its own people at the moment due to huge demand for it, wouldn’t of happened if it wasn’t for covid. Oil is in huge demand around the world due to economies starting back up again because of covid.

Like it or not, the pandemic has added additional problems in to the mix which would have not existed before - or least not to the severity we are seeing now.

I'm not sure anyone is going to disagree with what you're saying.

The point is that Covid makes it much harder to assess the true impact of Brexit.

 

[rob666]

As a Brexit voter, I must say I have been dancing with glee since the Covid outbreak.
I celebrated the deaths of three clients and a close family friend who I have known for fifty years by partying non stop for months.
Absolute bullshit.

 

[GaryH]

I'm not sure anyone is going to disagree with what you're saying.

The point is that Covid makes it much harder to assess the true impact of Brexit.

Yes, very much agree with you.

 

[Plastic Person]

COVID has obviously had a massive impact around the world, but the fact is, issues such as the emerging food crisis, shortage of workers (NHS and truck drivers, for starters) are both directly Brexit related, and yet everyday I read Pro-Leave politicians and institutions explaining that the pandemic has "complicated things", or some such. It's true, it has, but it's an enormous amount of passing the buck. The UK is pursuing fundamentally isolationist policies at a time in which the world needs to cooperate in order to restore something resembling normality.

Obviously I did not vote for Brexit, but for a while after the result, the civil instinct in me attempted to maintain the "it's happened, now let's see what we can make of it" perspective; something approaching ambivalence. The fact is, I am genuinely struggling more and more each day to see what that "best of it" might resemble. None of us can predict the future, but the course of the country and the quality of life of its citizens is too important to be steered simply by keeping the faith. Especially when everything promised to Leave voters, who I do think are owed what they were promised, has been chipped away at beyond recognition, or vanished, sometimes under the guise of the pandemic.

Nonetheless, sorry for making such an emotive/snide post yesterday. I have also lost family during the pandemic and need to separate the personal and the political in this case.

 

[rob666]

Firstly, no need to apologise, I love the debate on here, but I didn't want to leave the comment unchallenged.
Next, Britain "persuing fundamentally isolationist policies"...just no.
We have been actively seeking out new trade partners, not pulling up the drawbridge.
Are we still members of NATO, UN, World Bank, IMF, World Trade Organisation, and the Commonwealth?
Have we quit the Council of Europe?
Has foreign travel and trade been discouraged by those in power?
We have just made new military links with Australia and the US.
They are the ones literally off the top of my head.
Isolationist my arse.

Moving on, and I really wish we could, could I make a genuine suggestion here.
Following the actions of my own sister, who had had enough of Britain back in the days of Blair, she emigrated to another nation, first France, then Canada.
If after a couple of years, you still can't get your head round Brexit, and dread what the future holds, vote with your feet and get the hell out!
Continued citizenship is not compulsory.

 

[Alsty]

We have been actively seeking out new trade partners, not pulling up the drawbridge.

The UK has made 68 trade deals plus one with the EU. Of those, 63 of them were rollovers from our EU membership. One of them is with Japan, which the EU has also subsequently made a trade deal with on more favourable terms.

The government seem to be employing an "anybody but the EU strategy". For example, the Australian deal will bring in an extra 0.01% of our GDP. Leaving the Single Market has cost over 13% of our trade, yet there seems to be no effort to improve relations with the European Union.

If after a couple of years, you still can't get your head round Brexit, and dread what the future holds, vote with your feet and get the hell out!

This is something I have genuinely thought about. However it's now much more difficult as our freedom of movement has been taken away. Apparently this is a benefit?

 

[Craig]

Ahh was wondering when the “If you don’t like it then leave” argument would crop up . It’s possible to criticise and disagree with Brexit and still love many elements about where I live and the wider country I was born in. I have my roots here - my friends, my family, my job and the places I love to visit. Why should I leave when there’s still plenty about the UK that I appreciate and enjoy? I can still dread some of the things the future holds thanks to this government, I can still fundamentally disagree with where things are heading, but in no way does that mean I should up sticks and leave.