The Brexit Thread

[Rick]

I stopped reading when you started talking about killing my family. It's the most ridiculous analogy.

If Jacob Rees-Mogg, Priti Patel, Demonic Raab, Bill Cash and Mark Francois can vote against one form of Brexit, I don't understand why other MPs cannot vote against another form (one achieved by prorogation, no less).

 

[Dar]

When I voted there wasn't an option for "leave at any cost", just in or out!

If you bought a car, got given an invoice that just said "1 car", then found out the cost was multiple times what you thought, and it didn't come with any of the features the salesman told you it would, you'd probably be pretty peeved and marching straight back to give the car back for a refund.

I hate that conversations about Brexit revolve around "leavers" and "remainers", I voted remain but could have voted leave if they'd actually told us anything about what would happen.

The EU has its faults and we could well be ok after we leave, but the way it's been handled is disgraceful. Petty point scoring by party-before-country career politicians (including those that couldn't get elected to the house of commons after a few tries).

Triggering article 50 straight away was, probably, the stupidest thing any politician has done since invading Iraq. The problems that are holding up Brexit now, are the same problems people expected before article 50 was triggered and the timer started. They should have taken the time to work out the Ireland problem, and whatever else needed figuring out, BEFORE starting the countdown. I imagine the government's childish behaviour isn't well received in Brussels and could be what's stopping progress.

 

[Britford]

I stopped reading when you started talking about killing my family. It's the most ridiculous analogy.

The thing about analogies...is that your not meant to take them literally...

You = boris
The family = the UK and its citizens
Killing = an exit deal that tanks our economy into destruction (much more than no deal could ever do)

And before you say it...Answer me this.
What incentive does the EU have, to not destroy us?
Because they have a very good incentive TO destroy us (to use as an example to anyone else thinking of leaving)

 

[Tom]

The concept of the EU wanting to destroy the UK goes against the common Brexiteer narrative that "they need us more than we need them" - although I'm not sure if you share this view, despite how commonplace it is amongst Brexiteers.

It's also worth noting that there is no more evidence that Johnson is willing to leave without a deal than May was. The same people that fell for her "no deal is better than a bad deal" lie, are now falling for Johnson's likely lie. The idea that we would exit without a deal is a bluff designed to instigate a new deal, nothing more. He's perhaps slightly more convincing than her, but he hasn't actually been tested yet.

Another point I'd make is that by Brexiteer logic, the Queen will be denying and frustrating the will of the people when she almost certainly gives royal assent to the new bill next week. Additionally, calling for elections every two years (when they're supposed to be held every five) is an affront to democracy and is not respecting the result of the vote.

 

[Britford]

The concept of the EU wanting to destroy the UK goes against the common Brexiteer narrative that "they need us more than we need them" - although I'm not sure if you share this view, despite how commonplace it is amongst Brexiteers.

I agree, they do need us more, just the same way as they need everyone else, so surely, it's only logical to make an example of us.
That said, I personally think that, as long as no one else tries to leave, they will be more interested in keeping us paying for extensions...But, if push comes to shove, I doubt they would even hesitate to make us an example.

It's also worth noting that there is no more evidence that Johnson is willing to leave without a deal than May was. The same people that fell for her "no deal is better than a bad deal" lie, are now falling for Johnson's likely lie. The idea that we would exit without a deal is a bluff designed to instigate a new deal, nothing more. He's perhaps slightly more convincing than her, but he hasn't actually been tested yet.

I agree also, but until we can vote Farage in, what choice do we have?

Another point I'd make is that by Brexiteer logic, the Queen will be denying and frustrating the will of the people when she almost certainly gives royal assent to the new bill next week.

Yes?
I'm not sure I understand that point...

Additionally, calling for elections every two years (when they're supposed to be held every five) is an affront to democracy and is not respecting the result of the vote.

while I can't remember much about the last election, so can't speak for that, I can say that even though I, in principle, agree...I would support a snap election before the 31st, in light of the current...unique, circumstances...
I'm just sad that it's got to this point.

Hopefully, we can leave soon so we can get to work, fixing democracy in this country.

 

[Eidderf]

Your missing the point!

Imagine that you were stranded somewhere, and found a car dealership, sensing that you are desperate, a salesman informs you that he will only barter with you for £2000 upfront...with no other choice you agree, just then he offers you a car for £5000 and you have to kill your family...what would you do...I'm assuming, walk away and find a different way home... Your still stranded and you lost £2000 but at least you don't have to kill your family...
Now, imagine that same scenario, but he ties you to a chair and tells you that he will only let you leave once you accept a deal, he then offers you the same deal to kill your family...what now?

That was my point, that with no deal, we can cut our losses and leave before it gets worse, regardless of how much the EU fear it or now!

That metaphor doesn't work since we are already in the EU

A more accurate metaphor is if we bought a car and agreed to monthly payments but suddenly changed our mind for whatever reason and didn't want to any more so decided to drive our car into a lamppost in front of the car dealership as a way of protest. Though it maybe inconvenience the dealership ultimately we have destroyed our own car and has to deal with the consequences and find a new car.

Now in this scenario finding a new car is possible, but it's a bigger problem for us than it is the dealership.

Also understand that even after we leave brexit isn't over, it simply locks us to a harder path, trade deals still have to be negotiated and agreements will have to be made.It will be years before we get back into the same position we are in now with all the trade deals in place. With the closures of various companies over the UK and moving of the production of various things to other countries some things may never return. The only difference is we won't have anything to bargain with really since we will have already crashed the car.

 

[Rick]

Hopefully, we can leave soon so we can get to work, fixing democracy in this country.

You've been arguing against parliamentary democracy working as it should throughout this thread.

And before you say it...Answer me this.
What incentive does the EU have, to not destroy us?
Because they have a very good incentive TO destroy us (to use as an example to anyone else thinking of leaving)

Does the withdrawal agreement 18 months in the making read like they want to destroy us? When I read each and every page of it, that didn't seem to be the case.

They want to trade with us but do so under circumstances that don't undermine decades of political union - I think that's fair enough.

 

[delta79]

One of my friends posted this on facebook. My reply
" The sad thing is micky
Mouse (disney) knows how to run thing correctly."

Sent from my SM-J600FN using Tapatalk

 

[Jb85]

It seems Boris has had a strop and refused a press conference with the PM of Luxembourg- good one Boris that’s exactly how to get them on your side

Interesting about the Lib Dem stance how exactly would that work if we have already left the EU by the 31/10 I.e before a general election

 

[Rick]

It's difficult to see path to leaving on or before 31/10 now, with or without a deal.

 

[Jb85]

It's difficult to see path to leaving on or before 31/10 now, with or without a deal.

It’s difficult to see us leaving at all now which leaves one logical outcome really

 

[Rick]

It’s difficult to see us leaving at all now which leaves one logical outcome really

Continued prosperity with core national issues caused by and solvable by national government.

 

[Jb85]

Continued prosperity with core national issues caused by and solvable by national government.

Aka revoke article 50?

 

[Rick]

Aka revoke article 50?

Potentially eventually but not convinced any government would do that without a manifesto commitment or second referendum.

I know the Lib Dems have promised to but it's a fairly empty promise unless the polls shift dramatically.

Another delay feels more likely. For reasons that should have been much clearer and vocal at the time, the best reason to remain was the complexity of leaving.

 

[DiogoJ42]

It’s difficult to see us leaving at all now which leaves one logical outcome really

Yeah, civil war.

 

[speedy]

I'll likely be voting Lib dem in the next election due to their anti-brexit stance. Hopefully all the SNP voters can get behind Lib dem this time round otherwise the Tories will win (at least in my constituency)

 

[Plastic Person]

It's bleak out there. I would never vote for the Tories, and while I appreciate the Lib Dems firmly anti-Brexit stance, they still represent a dated kind of centrism that would continue austerity and neo-liberalism that would leave a lot of people struggling. And while I like Corbyn as a person, the current, leftist incarnation of Labour have missed so many open goals in the past few years that it's unforgivable.

My parents, who spent the last decade as public servants and saw the violent effects of cuts, want moderate social change and to remain in the EU. They have just swung back from Labour to the Lib Dems, which I think is a shame, but I understand their position, similarly to how I can't quite forgive Corbyn's apathy to Brexit. I live in Germany, which was meant to be a short-term move, but I can't see myself moving back to the UK anytime soon. The mood amongst the public here has, incidentally, seems to have moved from sympathy and compassion to immigrants like myself to complete bafflement at recent events involving Boris. However, the idea that Europe or the union wants to "destroy" the UK is still completely bananas.

 

[Stuie]

Not true we will only get a temporary economic hit but the EU has SO much more to lose...
There has been exit movements growing all across the board, all of which have held off to observe brexit.
If we leave with with a deal that deal would obviously include more payments but when they end...do you think the EU are just going to accept that they have less funding now, NO! They are going to demand that money be made up by everyone else, which will only increase anti EU sentiment and fearing another exit, the EU will make it clear that any more exits will be met with harsh fines and punishment...Hopefully the other members will think twice about exiting lest they face the wrath of the EU!

But if we leave with no deal, and are fine...what kind of message will that send, it will be proof that an exit can be done, so the next country who tries it, will, obviously, get a punishment deal right off the bat, but if they look at us and see that we can just refuse and just leave bypassing that punishment deal...why not do that?
After this the EU will demand more funding to cover the loss, seeing where this is headed even more member states will start the exit process, and so on and so forth, until there is no one left...

Do you really think the EU want to take that risk?

I'm a remainer but even the most passionate EU fans can't claim that the EU hasn't made this more difficult and been at least partly responsible for this mess. What did they do when Cameron went to them with his requests? What messages have then sent out since the referendum?

Put this into business terms, if one of my three largest accounts said they wanted to leave would I say bollocks to you or would I do what I could to make them want to stay, or at least keep some of the business with me.

 

[delta79]

The flip side of the coin is, we are the first country to want to leave the EU. There are other countries watching this to see the outcome.
The EU does not really want other parts of them leaving. So will give us a bad deal to deter other member states following suit and activating article 50.

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[Plastic Person]

The flip side of the coin is, we are the first country to want to leave the EU. There are other countries watching this to see the outcome.

I think this is overstated. Support for a 'Frexit' (in France, obviously), has actually reduced since 2016. And while there are right-wing populist parties mooting the idea all over Europe, and grabbing headlines in doing so, the appetite in mainland Europe seems much more to be about reformation, than departure. The UK is an island nation, with a very specific mindset and cultural identity; one that can be delusional and even dangerous, at least in my opinion. That's not to say, Italy is the same as Sweden, but there's certainly greater unity in the Schengen zone, as well as under the Euro.

One of the underlying principles of the EU is to guarantee workable trade, as historically, that typically results in less war and invasion. That might sound melodramatic, but it's something worth standing by, even if the EU is a problematic beast.