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The Brexit Thread

Britford said:
But as above, article 50 is the democratic will of the people and can't simply be overturned.

By leaving our country dead in the water...
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The "will of the people" was to leave, but no one said how... What was termed as the easiest deal in history, or something like Norway instantly turned into no deal once the result had been announced...

There in lies the issue, Leave was all things to all people, and in reality Article 50 could've been activated now after 3 years of actually organising things... Instead the rush to do it led to the current chaos, rather than taking the future of the country seriously (not helped by May calling a snap election, or those tasked with negotiation being generally useless)...

Plus it's been proven that one of the Leave campaigns cheated, that's not very democratic if you really think about it...

The entire country has been dead in the water for 3 years of this nonsense as well... But given that we were saved from recession after the vote by the Bank of England being proactive, something major will have to be done to continue that...

How the country can actually move forward is questionable regardless of leaving or revoking... That some in parliament are attempting to at least safeguard against no deal whatsoever at least a barrier towards things going completely up the creek...


We tried to reform voting procedure, but that went down badly... Turning what was a purely advisory referendum (and many prominent leavers including Farage and JRM both mentioned having second ones to confirm a departure) into a thing that must happen lest the country fall apart hasn't helped...
 
Im self employed.
Already decided not to vote in the next election, all the major parties come out looking like arseholes.
And postal votes round here are notoriously abused...have been for years.
I won't pay your fines!
 
rob666 said:
Im self employed.
Already decided not to vote in the next election, all the major parties come out looking like arseholes.
And postal votes round here are notoriously abused...have been for years.
I won't pay your fines!
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Fines are extreme but there has to be a better way than this prehistoric system we currently have

As you say their all arseholians
 
The issue is that now we have lost the right to no deal, there is genuinely nothing to negotiate with.
Why should the EU allow us the Theresa May deal when they can just demand full dictatorial control of the country? (For example obviously)

The EU dont want anyone to leave, so now they have full control over brexit, they can just not give us a deal.

The other option is that they either give us an enslavement deal or give us a punishment deal...I'm sure that I dont have to explain why that is 10x worse that any damage no deal could do.
 
I'm hoping it gets delayed out of time (the correct term escapes me) or rejected by the queen but even then, Im not sure I'm 100% comfortable with those means...its just a shame that our mps were so undemocratic, underhanded, treacherous and selfish that it got to this point!
 
The thing is, using the threat of no deal doesn't really wash with the EU... brinkmanship only works when your opponent has something equal or greater to lose than you. That's not the case here where the UK will suffer more than the EU.

The EU have already said they are not prepared to reopen the negotiations. Now, they might u-turn on that, but they won't give up the backstop or make changes that threaten the single market's integrity just to stop the UK from leaving, no matter how much you threaten to walk out.
 
Alsty said:
The thing is, using the threat of no deal doesn't really wash with the EU... brinkmanship only works when your opponent has something equal or greater to lose than you. That's not the case here where the UK will suffer more than the EU.
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Not true we will only get a temporary economic hit but the EU has SO much more to lose...
There has been exit movements growing all across the board, all of which have held off to observe brexit.
If we leave with with a deal that deal would obviously include more payments but when they end...do you think the EU are just going to accept that they have less funding now, NO! They are going to demand that money be made up by everyone else, which will only increase anti EU sentiment and fearing another exit, the EU will make it clear that any more exits will be met with harsh fines and punishment...Hopefully the other members will think twice about exiting lest they face the wrath of the EU!

But if we leave with no deal, and are fine...what kind of message will that send, it will be proof that an exit can be done, so the next country who tries it, will, obviously, get a punishment deal right off the bat, but if they look at us and see that we can just refuse and just leave bypassing that punishment deal...why not do that?
After this the EU will demand more funding to cover the loss, seeing where this is headed even more member states will start the exit process, and so on and so forth, until there is no one left...

Do you really think the EU want to take that risk?
 
Forgetting all the grandstanding, how is the Ireland problem going to be solved?

How will we stop Scotland voting for independence once the UK leaves?

Heaven forbid, but what happens in the future when the EU institution has changed for the better and we think it's better back in, only to have to comply with all the regulations, replace the pound with the euro and don't get farming subsidies back?
 
Why should we block Scottish independence?
If that's what they want, what right do we have to lock them into an empire?


That sounds bizarrely familiar somhow ...probably nothing...
 
Sounds familiar, not actually addressing the problem just fluffy words around the problem
 
I just encountered a very good point, no deal isn't just a bargening chip...its also the simple but invaluable right, to walk away.
So if they start just taking the **** with deals, we can still minimize damage by just refusing!
(I realise that it's still the same argument but I never considered it in that context...
Mind, mildly blown)

Anyway, the main reason for posting.
I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how anyone can think this new law is good in any way, or even how it could be less damaging than no deal. It seems that there is a fundamental misunderstanding somewhere, so can someone explain that opinion to me?
 
@Britford Surely the whole Brexit argument is that parliament should be "sovereign" (quote not accidental) and have the final say on all matters, without interference from anywhere else. There's no parliamentary majority for no deal therefore if the UK parliament is "taking back control", it's all working as it should and as was promised. No?

Also what kills me is that the 31st October date was decided by the EU. People in favour of Brexit are arguing for us to accept an instruction from Brussels.
 
Britford said:
I just encountered a very good point, no deal isn't just a bargening chip...its also the simple but invaluable right, to walk away
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Because ripping up 50 trade deals, as well as the ability to trade without any tariffs or customs checks with 27 other European countries, is a great way to take control. That'll teach the pesky EU not to negotiate with us!
 
It shouldn't really matter how bad anyone thinks it may turn out in the short or long term, the simple fact of the matter is that the public were asked to give an instruction to parliament which they would then carry out. That was stated clearly in the official literature and by politicians in the media including the Prime Minister at the time. The result of the vote was that we should leave the EU. Three years on and they still have not taken us out of the EU due to MP's getting together after deciding that they did not like the answer and then endlessly putting blocks in the way and rushing through new laws to make it harder to leave at every opportunity. Those are the simple facts. They could always have implemented it and then in several years looked at the situation and looked at reversing the decision if possible if things were going terribly.

As a leave voter, I can suck it up and accept that this is the way politics is and I didn't expect much different. Let's not seriously try to defend the way politicians have acted in these last three years though. They've been nothing short of an absolute disgrace. At least when Brexit doesn't happen at all, or happens in name only, I can enjoy myself by blaming every set of job losses or any other negative thing that happens to our economy on the fact that we didn't leave the EU :)
 
@BarryZola There's something in what you say but it's not as black and white as is often described. A large number of those who were key figures in the Leave campaign(s) voted against Mrs. May's deal, the only tangible opportunity there has been to 'leave' - including the present PM and key members of the cabinet.

I think it's also true to say that the phrase "leave voter" means very little, as does the phrase "leaving the EU" because there are so many shades of grey, each with their own hugely different consequences.

Had Labour secured a majority in 2017, it's quite likely we'd still be in EU, but if we had left, what was in their manifesto was almost as far from No Deal as you could have, without remaining.

Also, lost in the fog - the bill that went through this week doesn't prevent No Deal, it prevents No Deal on 31st October.
 
Rick said:
@BarryZola
Also, lost in the fog - the bill that went through this week doesn't prevent No Deal, it prevents No Deal on 31st October.
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Yes, but as the majority in the commons are remainers, they'll just put through a bill for every single deadline stating that we can't leave with No Deal. This just means that we have absolutely no clout in any negotiations with the EU as they know we can't walk away. It's basically check-mate against any leader trying to negotiate with the EU as they are constantly undermined by our own politicians. The only way that will change is if there is a wholesale change in the personnel in the commons, but that's not going to happen any time soon. If I were a remainer I'd be pretty happy with how it's going right at the moment.
 
Rick said:
@Britford Surely the whole Brexit argument is that parliament should be "sovereign" (quote not accidental) and have the final say on all matters, without interference from anywhere else. There's no parliamentary majority for no deal therefore if the UK parliament is "taking back control", it's all working as it should and as was promised. No?
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I would, on all other circumstances agree, fully...But...its plainly obvious to most of the country that this is just a way to cancel Brexit, they have been trying to prolong brexit for the past 3 years so its obvious that all they are going to do is vote down all deals and keep us in a permanent extension effectively cancelling brexit!
Since this is the case, then, in my mind, parliament is compromised and can no longer be trusted to adhere to democracy.

I can't invission any way that locking us in the EU with no right to walk away, will result in anything, both acomplishing brexit, while also being less damaging than no deal.
I can't fathom any reason they would allow us a deal, that wouldn't destroy us as an example to other member states...when, they can just make us pay 5 bil a day for extension.

Since they rushed through a bill that leaves us no viable option but to revoke article 50, then, as far as I'm concerned, they have betrayed the democratic will of the people and need to be stopped by any means necessary!

Rick said:
@Britford Also what kills me is that the 31st October date was decided by the EU. People in favour of Brexit are arguing for us to accept an instruction from Brussels.
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...so?
We are much too mature to burn everything down just so they can't have the last word.

Alsty said:
Because ripping up 50 trade deals, as well as the ability to trade without any tariffs or customs checks with 27 other European countries, is a great way to take control. That'll teach the pesky EU not to negotiate with us!
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Your missing the point!

Imagine that you were stranded somewhere, and found a car dealership, sensing that you are desperate, a salesman informs you that he will only barter with you for £2000 upfront...with no other choice you agree, just then he offers you a car for £5000 and you have to kill your family...what would you do...I'm assuming, walk away and find a different way home... Your still stranded and you lost £2000 but at least you don't have to kill your family...
Now, imagine that same scenario, but he ties you to a chair and tells you that he will only let you leave once you accept a deal, he then offers you the same deal to kill your family...what now?

That was my point, that with no deal, we can cut our losses and leave before it gets worse, regardless of how much the EU fear it or now!
 
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