The Fifty Shades Fad.

[TheMan]

The same can be said about my household Harvey. And I also have no issues with sex being taught in schools.

Instead of debating me about what I know to be true, why don't we measure it against society in general.

Working well eh?

 

[Plastic Person]

So tell me then, what is the problem with having this in adult fiction - not "adult" fiction, but a section where grown ups know where grown up books will be, and we leave front of house not riddled with adverts and big signs shouting EROTIC FICTION - which is not on the display that Andrew pointed out.

This display I refer to, took up the whole of the front of the shop, had loads of signs, and was frankly ridiculous. You had to walk THROUGH it to get in.

And yes, the adverts for it everywhere DID as I keep saying, and you repeatedly ignore, result in kids far too young getting hold of a book that is firmly aimed at adults.

If there is shame in adults going into an adult section to chose adult books, then there exists the issue in society of "prudish" NOT as a parent going into a FAMILY BOOKSHOP (and yes Sam, it is A FAMILY STORE because I had to walk THROUGH THE EROTIC FICTION TO GET TO THE CHILDREN'S BOOKS) and being hit with marketing for for this particular book.

I choose not to judge the issues that you face every day in your fight for gay rights, so I find it shockingly abhorrent that you pay so little care to the fact that society today pays little heed to a child's right to remain a child!

Kids are growing up way to fast, and missing out on the innocence of youth, BECAUSE of our present culture, not in spite of it. Kids are given sexual education lessons very young nowadays, and rather graphically as I had to view as a parent - this is scientific, biological, and does not involve unrealistic expectations of girls/boys men/women as this literature does, as well as general media. It is a huge social issue, creates issues into teenage life far more than it ever did before, and it is getting continually worse.

Those who disagree, only care for their own "liberalism", no one else, and that is more right wing than those who like everyone to have choice available to all.

When did this book get into the wrong hands of children? Sorry TheMan, but you keep justifying your arguments by virtue of having a daughter without providing any actual anecdotal evidence. Sam can be boorish as he well knows, but this is a totally different argument to his 'fight for gay rights'. I have grown into a mature, loving adult largely capable of sexual relationships of all sorts because I was fortunate enough to have had a childhood and then have elders who could explain and quantify sex and the culture around it for me. Despite that, I still encountered sexual material occasionally and the facade of youth didn't feel to collapse around me.

I suppose I'm just baffled that for all your outspoken liberalism and the general sense you speak on here, this relatively minor advertising campaign has caught you up in arms. Of course I've never met your daughter, and true, I have no experience parenting or in the reflexes that undoubtedly accompany it. But often when I see posts like the above in relation to some sort of laughably damaging cultural phenomenon, the kind society encounters and largely emerges from unscathed again and again, are parents protecting their offspring's 'right to a childhood', or are they more concerned with upholding it for themselves?

 

[TheMan]

In terms of it getting into the wrong hands

When did this book get into the wrong hands of children? Sorry TheMan, but you keep justifying your arguments by virtue of having a daughter without providing any actual anecdotal evidence.

I know for a fact that young girls had gotten hold of this and read the material, the pressure on young girls now to confirm to sexual stereotypes is ridiculous and getting younger and younger, it's quite laughable how Meat Pie you somehow manage to separate this from misogyny. In this case I find you to be hugely hypocritical and I have lost a great deal of respect for your general views.

Look at the vast increases in depression, bullying, self-harm etc to the degree (moving onto boys) that suicide is the biggest killer in young males - a shocking fact.

Why do you think this is exactly? Is it some kind of coincidence that the pressure applied to children and young adults in this world is perhaps, a little over the top? There are hugely complex issues surrounding this of course, I'm not stupid.

What I do NOT understand, is why so many of you are so dead set against having books of such obvious adult nature moved away from the bloody sweet counter?

Someone please tell me, why it is then so important that we allow erotic fiction to be advertised so profusely (as this point, in particular that I am referring to)? Again I am not talking not selling it, or hiding it away even on top shelves, but just in the age appropriate sections of a shop.

I find it utterly incomprehensible that some would wish to take their own "libertarian" views to the degree they would argue for this to be advertised to such degrees.

Anyway, some have their heads buried in their own beaches so far they are unable to stand back and see a bigger picture, one that is putting undue pressure on children in our society.

I can tell you one thing, those other kids may have sneaked off to read fifty shades, but they have not got the depth of world knowledge, politics, religion, self investigation and openness that my daughter has got, because their parents are too busy ramming their stubborn minded views into their kids to.

The most precious gift you can give to a child, is critical thinking, and the ability to step back from some widely accepted viewpoint and not take it as a given. She found the advertising, the fact her friends were so enticed by it, and the way they have to sneak around equally as ridiculous. She values the time she has a kid where to a degree, you are permitted insulation from what is a damn crappy world at times.

Doesn't mean she doesn't know what is going on though, there is a big, BIG difference.

 

[Plastic Person]

In terms of it getting into the wrong hands

When did this book get into the wrong hands of children? Sorry TheMan, but you keep justifying your arguments by virtue of having a daughter without providing any actual anecdotal evidence.

I know for a fact that young girls had gotten hold of this and read the material, the pressure on young girls now to confirm to sexual stereotypes is ridiculous and getting younger and younger, it's quite laughable how Meat Pie you somehow manage to separate this from misogyny. In this case I find you to be hugely hypocritical and I have lost a great deal of respect for your general views.

Look at the vast increases in depression, bullying, self-harm etc to the degree (moving onto boys) that suicide is the biggest killer in young males - a shocking fact.

Why do you think this is exactly? Is it some kind of coincidence that the pressure applied to children and young adults in this world is perhaps, a little over the top? There are hugely complex issues surrounding this of course, I'm not stupid.

First of all, I'm not Meat Pie, so you can let him off the hook and direct your massive lack of respect towards my views instead.

Secondly, the links you are making are so tenuous that I don't know where to start. I am not a libertarian. There is no misogyny on the cover on 50 Shades, and depending on your perspective, there's not really any inside it either. What are the common sexual stereotypes perpetrated inside the frankly ridiculously melodramatic study of a young woman who enters a poorly written BDSM relationship and then concludes by giving it up anyway for a 'normal' life (unlike, say in the much more heartfelt and interesting drama, 'Secretary). Kids should not be reading 50 Shades, but by and large, they're not, nor are WHSmith attempting them to.

You only quoted one part of my post, where as I'm interested in all of yours. I figure your daughter got hold of some erotic fiction, and as her Dad, it's freaked you out a bit. You're right that issues of gender and sexuality are ever complex, so I don't know why one incredibly tepid example of marketing the sort of saucy blue book that's been around for centuries has sent you all Helen Lovejoy.

Look at the vast increases in depression, bullying, self-harm etc to the degree (moving onto boys) that suicide is the biggest killer in young males - a shocking fact.

Why do you think this is exactly? Is it some kind of coincidence that the pressure applied to children and young adults in this world is perhaps, a little over the top?

Yes, 100%, but I think you'd have to have a seriously conspiratorial perspective of literature to make such a strong link.

 

[Meat Pie]

I'm not being a hypocrit, I just don't agree with you.

In college when I studied Graphic Design, I wrote a dissertation about the impact of sexualised imagery on the sales of products and the social impact on people, including the happiness and body-image of children. If you had cared to take even a cursory look at the social studies, you would know that it is not all sexual material that has a damaging effect. The problem is where it casually puts cultural importance on pyschical attributes in a casual setting. So for example the awful tagline at the end of those cosmetics adverts: “Maybe she's born with it? Maybe it's maybeline" which implants the notion that everyone is always judging you for your sexual appeal.

But outside of that, material that talks about sex is not damaging for children to find out about. We shouldn't hide it all away as if Sex is a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. We should just have the maturity to explain to kids in a frank way about any curiosity they have about the world of sex. If you don't, then you could be leading them to have years of self-loathing. This all smacks more to do with you being too embarassed to carry out your duty as parent, rather than protecting your child from anything 'dangerous'.

A book, on a shelf, which doesn't have explicit material on the front, is not harmful.

 

[Tarin Maria]

Sorry, I totally disagree, if some poor six year old kid picks up something like Fifty Shades and reads it, that's bad.
At the end of the day, you have to be a certain age to be exposed to the images of naked people on film, sex scenes and the like. Why shouldn't that exist for books? If children are interested in talking about sex, then the parents should be doing it, they shouldn't be learning from erotic novels or sex scenes on films, or pornography. All of those are far too unrealistic, they need to learn the true facts, and that can only come from real life, not some lurid fantasy.

And on top of that, I read one page of this book over a friend's shoulder, I wanted to throw it. Grammar and spelling didn't exist.

Why can't erotic novels only be sold in 'adult shops'? You have to be eighteen to even LOOK at the back of an Ann Summers shop, why should you be able to read about how the sex toys you can't even look at, are used?

 

[Nick]

Sorry, I totally disagree, if some poor six year old kid picks up something like Fifty Shades and reads it, that's bad.

Assuming, of course, that this is actually a common occurrence.

 

[Plastic Person]

Sorry, I totally disagree, if some poor six year old kid picks up something like Fifty Shades and reads it, that's bad.

At the end of the day, you have to be a certain age to be exposed to the images of naked people on film, sex scenes and the like. Why shouldn't that exist for books?

Why can't erotic novels only be sold in 'adult shops'? You have to be eighteen to even LOOK at the back of an Ann Summers shop, why should you be able to read about how the sex toys you can't even look at, are used?

What six year old is going to be able to take anything from 50 Shades of Grey? Where are these sexually and culturally informed six year olds I keep hearing about? There's no point comparing adult literature to film, television or outright pornography, because it's a completely different cultural form.

On the subject, I think it's very telling that Ann Summers can plaster the front of their shops in near nude imagery but their actual utensils for sexual expression are hidden away. The UK is a fundamentally prudish society.

 

[Arpy]

Sorry, I totally disagree, if some poor six year old kid picks up something like Fifty Shades and reads it, that's bad.
At the end of the day, you have to be a certain age to be exposed to the images of naked people on film, sex scenes and the like. Why shouldn't that exist for books? If children are interested in talking about sex, then the parents should be doing it, they shouldn't be learning from erotic novels or sex scenes on films, or pornography. All of those are far too unrealistic, they need to learn the true facts, and that can only come from real life, not some lurid fantasy.

As much as i understand your point i would also like to point out that no six year old would understand what is happening in these books...
I have a six year old sister and her age group just about understand the biff and chip books never mind what some middleaged sexually frustrated woman thinks is an 'erotic novel'.
I highly doubt that anyone under the age of 11 or 12 is going to fully understand or be affected by these books and even at that age i doubt they will actually understand it. I certainly havent heard any stories of any children who have read this book and commited themselves to a dominant/submissive relationship.

Althougth the books are just a piece of extremely badly written rubbish i still dont see what peoples problems are with them being advertised after all are they not a best selling book series?

 

[Pixie-Ro]

Sorry, I totally disagree, if some poor six year old kid picks up something like Fifty Shades and reads it, that's bad.
And on top of that, I read one page of this book over a friend's shoulder, I wanted to throw it. Grammar and spelling didn't exist.

I wish the six year olds in my class were capable of reading 50 shades. Oh, and quality narrative and storyline may not exist, but in an internationally published best seller, the spelling and grammar would at least be accurate.

 

[Tarin Maria]

Sorry, I totally disagree, if some poor six year old kid picks up something like Fifty Shades and reads it, that's bad.

Assuming, of course, that this is actually a common occurrence.

It was just for example, an exaggerated example. Then again, when the books are easily found in any book shop or supermarket, how do we know its not a common occurrence?

I don't think its any different to film, and I don't think any child should be reading it, its not suitable. And on top of that, its utter crap. Like, seriously, I think I've seen children write more coherent stories.

No, seriously, its not at all well written. Its just a Twilight fan fiction that somehow gained recognition.

 

[TheMan]

We should just have the maturity to explain to kids in a frank way about any curiosity they have about the world of sex. If you don't, then you could be leading them to have years of self-loathing. This all smacks more to do with you being too embarassed to carry out your duty as parent, rather than protecting your child from anything 'dangerous'.

Clearly you have ignored the parts where I told you I agree with proper sex education, that I have discussed it with my daughter as SHE bought up how ludicrous she found it that her friends were reading it, how they found out about it etc.

Erotic Fiction is not a way to teach children about sex ffs. Your point is totally moot. I don't disagree with teaching sexual education to children, along with self respect, self confidence, and maturity around the subject - these books in the hands of minors do the total opposite, and they found out about it, because of the OTT marketing that sparked EXACTLY the curiosity you are on about, but in totally the wrong manner.

First of all, I'm not Meat Pie, so you can let him off the hook and direct your massive lack of respect towards my views instead.

I was responding to Meats points, not yours, that is why I directed the comments at him. There are multiple responses going on, I am trying to reference everyone individually as is polite in debate.

Let me be absolutely clear as certain members are warping my views, which I just won't tolerate. I am NOT against this literature, I believe in freedom of expression and behaviour so long as it does not affect others, I know FIRST HAND that children far too young are getting hold of this book because it was marketed to openly - that is how they knew about it, I speak openly and honestly with my daughter, I believe teaching self confidence, self respect, and sex education is very important for children to learn appropriately.

Some of the way my argument has been twisted around is quite ridiculous. I have evidence of it happening and why, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping books for adults, in books for adults sections of a store - not hidden away in a back room like some XXX high street shop, but like any other genre - in the relevant bloody section, not brazenly in your face at the front so you have NO CHOICE but to walk through the section.

It is irresponsible liberalism to believe we can do what we want, when the hell we want, and sod everyone else.

Anyway, I do not like side-tracking debates, I've made my points and will stop hogging it now.

EDIT:

If children are interested in talking about sex, then the parents should be doing it, they shouldn't be learning from erotic novels or sex scenes on films, or pornography. All of those are far too unrealistic, they need to learn the true facts, and that can only come from real life, not some lurid fantasy.

Absolutely spot on! Kids of the age I am talking about, are in the "modeling period", where kids are more influenced in matters like this, and wish to begin "trying things" etc. It really isn't rocket science, nor is anyone suggesting anything other than not ramming it in peoples faces. It is about recognising the importance of development at that stage, and ensuring it is managed responsibly for the development of the individual.

Anyway, only added that out of courtesy to Tarin.

 

[Nick]

It was just for example, an exaggerated example. Then again, when the books are easily found in any book shop or supermarket, how do we know its not a common occurrence?

Read my posts over the last few pages, I've sort of tried to counter this.

I don't think its any different to film, and I don't think any child should be reading it, its not suitable. And on top of that, its utter crap. Like, seriously, I think I've seen children write more coherent stories.

No, seriously, its not at all well written. Its just a Twilight fan fiction that somehow gained recognition.

I'm not sure the book's aim is to be well written, rather to arouse women. And I'm not sure why sex should really be censored more than violence, bad language or drug use. Surely sex is much less harmful and much more natural than all of the these- when done tastefully at least? And I would think that children would be more influenced by the aforementioned three, rather than sex. And, also, there are books that feature sex that are much more well revered than Fifty Shades of Grey, possibly due to the sex being of a subtler taste, but they aren't campaigned against. So, where do we draw the line?

 

[Tarin Maria]

Woah now, don't twist my posts. I didn't say BAN THE BOOK, I said it was awfully written and not suitable for children. The sex isn't at all realistic, and is not going to help youngsters learn about sex. They can do that through family members and sexual education.

Once more, its just a published fanfiction. Its awfully written, but as it would seem, none of you have actually read a single page, so wouldn't know. Also, the original fanfiction is available online, so you can find it, and you can see how badly its written.

Plus, last time I checked, things with swearing, violence and drugs were also aimed at adults. Tv and film which include them are rated either fifteen or eighteen, and the same with games.

And with film and tv, you can get 'parent guides' that tell you how much swearing, violence, sex and drug use is included in the feature.

 

[Martin]

The difference between a film and a book is, obviously, that you can see what's going on. If a child doesn't understand the words on the page, it can't form a picture of it and lose their 'innocence', whereas in a film, they can actually see what's happening.

 

[Tarin Maria]

A lot of books about sex have been banned in the past. For instance Lady Chatterly's Lover. So, actually, its not the first book about sex to cause controversy.

But children of thirteen or fourteen years old will understand, and they will be affected by it? Why should we allow children to grow up so fast? Being an adult sucks. But glamorizing BDSM to a young teenager? Is that really any good?

 

[Plastic Person]

Also, sorry for double post, but a lot of books about sex have been banned in the past. For instance Lady Chatterly's Lover. So, actually, its not the first book about sex to cause controversy.

But children of thirteen or fourteen years old will understand, and they will be affected by it? Why should we allow children to grow up so fast? Being an adult sucks. But glamorizing BDSM to a young teenager? Is that really any good?

Well, many psychologists and hack authors alike would argue that the roots of a preference for BDSM are established at a much younger age than thirteen or fourteen, disturbing as that might be for a parent, brother or sister to think about. A thirteen or fourteen year old might understand 50 Shades in the sense that they can read words on paper, but I don't necessarily think that means they'll be establishing a 'red room of pain' any time soon. Protecting young teenager's from implied sexuality of any sort is an absolute losing battle. Trust me, I remember. The best parents can do is have a decent relationship with their children that contextualises sexuality. Given that TheMan and others are quite proud, and I'm sure quite correct to claim they manage that, I fail to see how a sign saying EROTIC FICTION near the front of a mainstream book shop could be a sign of anything much other than a limited time 3 for 2 offer.

 

[Tarin Maria]

As I had previously stated, parents and other family members should talk to their children about sex, I had my older sister for that, and later, my dad and aunt. But children should be allowed to be children, I had to grow up very fast after my mum passed away, and I miss the childhood I should have had.

 

[James]

By the age of 13 most kids will know about sex. The minute you enter high school education you will start to be taught sex education (unless you were in a crap school like mine and you learnt bugger all).

Most kids will get interested in sex from 13 and up. I knew of BDSM and the likes around that age. I'm 21 now and I'm pretty sure it never damaged my mind.

---

As I've already said, this topic is picking out a book when there are far more evils out there - modern life is living in a sexualised world. Like my tongue in cheek comment on a previous page, the only way you can protect a child from it is by locking your child in a cage or just don't have children. Unless you're living in the countryside with no television, no tv, no access to media and no contact with anyone else then there is no way to 'protect' your child. That's the end line of it.

 

[Martin]

13? We were 10/11 when we got taught in Primary. Most of us knew it all already. By 13 we were all already horny, raging porn fiends, some of us had already had actual sex by then.

You can't protect children. The best thing to do is to be proactive and teach them well. It's like with 'violent' films and games. Can't hide them from it, and trying to will make them more curious and potentially damaging. Be proactive and explain things properly and there won't be any issue.

50 Shades did well because people like sex. We should embrace that and allow society to develop in a way where we're more comfortable with it, so that it's not hidden away most of the time, and the only like it isn't hidden it's "OMG, SEX!!!". That's what's not natural or healthy