The Nemesis retrack; will it be a fluke?

[JAperson]

I disagree, Wicker Man could easily be retracked (and probably will) in the future with GCI titan track.

There is absolutely no reason for it to be titan tracked, Alton Towers have wanted a woodie for a long time, they are hardly going to turn it into a steel coaster. They'll just replace wood that needs replacing.

 

[Mikw]

You would first have to understand the reasoning to re-track the rides. Nemesis still rides beautifully for its age. This is being re-tracked before it is essential and becomes either rough or unsafe. We don’t have the full details behind it other than it’s arguably the best rollercoaster in the UK (still). The big one has had a lot of re-track work, but let’s look at other older rides like Vampire which haven’t. Ironically also an Arrow designs coaster.

Thirteen is not likely to require one due to the lack of strain on the track. This would likely need work to the drop section rather than anything else. Would it be worth it? I could see them removing this one eventually. Would be just as effective to replace the whole ride. Maybe more so as it’s becoming troublesome.

Rita is nothing special, I agree, it will be sold off when the time comes I expect. Perhaps making way for a bigger project if 13 went also?

Wickerman is constantly having work done and is now their most popular ride at the towers (you can’t argue that point) while it is no world first it appeals to the masses and is a great deal of fun. I think this has overtaken Smiler which appears to get longer queues perhaps because of the throughput.

Oblivion would be a shoe in, short ride and B&M are ready and able to do it when needed.

Galactica is a rare ride, is it one of only 3 in the world? People never put this in their top 3 rides at Alton but it’s always got a decent sized queue. The area it takes up is huge and something bigger could go in it’s place. Given the quality of B&M coasters, I think it’s still got plenty of life left in it yet.

Smiler…. well, let’s be honest there are parts of that track that need sorting now. While they are there they should alter the layout in places to make the transitions smoother and the likeliness to stall much less. Currently still a world record holder, has a baffling fan base but if you move on in 10 years time perhaps we all would have moved on and it won’t be getting any smoother. Big one is still tallest coaster in UK (about to be broken) which is perhaps why it was kept so long. The area for Smiler is a small foot print, hard to see what replaces it, might sway the decision? My impression is that it would be removed as it stands when the time comes. Watch to see what happens with Saw.

I take issue with the claim that the Smiler's fan base is "baffling" - i've been on loads of coasters and The Smiler is still right up there in my favourites list, it's great fun. The amount of people who come off it and say "That's the best one here!" is tantamount of it's popularity with the general public - and the USA coaster nuts love it too.

As for the "poor" build quality of the manyfacturer there's actually a few Guersts around the world that are quite a bit older, and not falling apart.

 

[Trooper Looper]

The smiler getting re-tracked in the future just wouldn't be worth the cost as it will be jolty again in no time. As somebody else said above.....there's no build quality to these Gerst coasters. They age terribly.

Blivvy probably wouldn't need much of the track replacing either as there's not much of the actual track that is put under that much stress. They could do that in no time.

I miss The Smiler when it was smooth


I remember it being my first upside down ride when I went on it in 2017 scarefest, still one of the best coaster experiences I've had on any roller coaster. But The Smiler now... easily the worst Secret Weapon there. Its horrendously rough and more painful than SAW. At least the indoor inversion on The Smiler is still mostly smooth. Merlin really don't think of the long term of their rides, do they? Wicker Man is already getting a little jolty, and Smiler is only 9 years old and makes me appreciate Colossus loads more nowadays when I visit Thorpe Park.

I miss the Smiler being great, it truly was the 2nd best there just under Nemmy.

I makes me wonder though, if Merlin wouldn't want Gerstlaur to retrack the smiler and would overall prefer the ride to last longer in smoother conditions, would they approach another Roller Coaster manufacturer, or a Steel manufacturer like Blackpool has done with the Big One?

 

[Alastair]

I makes me wonder though, if Merlin wouldn't want Gerstlaur to retrack the smiler and would overall prefer the ride to last longer in smoother conditions, would they approach another Roller Coaster manufacturer, or a Steel manufacturer like Blackpool has done with the Big One?

Not a hope. In the incredibly unlikely event that they did ever consider a retrack, they'd simply ask Gerst given that they a) manufactured the ride and b) still exist.

The Taziker work simply looks to be a deal of convenience to me, being based relatively locally. And let's be honest, Steve the local welder could probably do a better job than Arrow did originally.

 

[rob666]

Funnily enough, Steve is my local welder, and I would not trust him on the Big One.
Back on topic, has the reopening date been announced yet.
Is the full season closure actually known, or speculation?

 

[Rob]

I miss The Smiler when it was smooth

Those few days when it first opened in 2013? Agreed!

 

[Matt N]

A lot of people cite Smiler’s “poor build quality” as a reason why it wouldn’t be retracked. I have a few counter points to that.

Firstly, retracks aren’t necessarily done based on smoothness. If they were, I don’t think Alton would necessarily be doing Nemesis. They’re often done based on the ride’s structural integrity, and the state of the track and supports. Even though Smiler may not be the smoothest coaster, that’s not necessarily a sign that the track and supports are in a state that warrants a retrack. That point will likely take a lot longer to reach. Hence, if they did retrack it, it would last for another 20-30 years or whatever, and it would certainly be a long term investment.

Secondly, Gerstlauer have made improvements to their ride profiling since Smiler was built, from what I can ascertain. Many of their newer coasters are apparently glass smooth, so maybe they would reprofile some of the rougher bits of Smiler in the event of a retrack? That would solve the smoothness issue cited.

Thirdly, I also hear the expense involved with Smiler’s supports being cited. My counter point there is; wouldn’t Nemesis’ supports be equally problematic to replace, if not more so? That pit is a very complex structure and causes definite issues for ride supports, and I believe that Nemesis has already had some support replacement done due to subsidence. Surely Smiler’s supports would be no more complex to deal with than Nemesis’ in that regard?

 

[RIPCorky]

A lot of people cite Smiler’s “poor build quality” as a reason why it wouldn’t be retracked. I have a few counter points to that.

Firstly, retracks aren’t necessarily done based on smoothness. If they were, I don’t think Alton would necessarily be doing Nemesis. They’re often done based on the ride’s structural integrity, and the state of the track and supports. Even though Smiler may not be the smoothest coaster, that’s not necessarily a sign that the track and supports are in a state that warrants a retrack. That point will likely take a lot longer to reach. Hence, if they did retrack it, it would last for another 20-30 years or whatever, and it would certainly be a long term investment.

Secondly, Gerstlauer have made improvements to their ride profiling since Smiler was built, from what I can ascertain. Many of their newer coasters are apparently glass smooth, so maybe they would reprofile some of the rougher bits of Smiler in the event of a retrack? That would solve the smoothness issue cited.

Thirdly, I also hear the expense involved with Smiler’s supports being cited. My counter point there is; wouldn’t Nemesis’ supports be equally problematic to replace, if not more so? That pit is a very complex structure and causes definite issues for ride supports, and I believe that Nemesis has already had some support replacement done due to subsidence. Surely Smiler’s supports would be no more complex to deal with than Nemesis’ in that regard?

Not all retracks no, but if your rollercoaster is jolting and vibrating more than usual it means either something is worn or a track element or support is being put under greater pressures and stress than it would be if the ride was smooth. Steel, although very strong is still liable to stress fracturing and of course rust. In other words it doesn't last forever. Part of the reason Corkscrew and Black Hole were rough was because they were essentially not a fixed ride with supports concreted into the ground. Smiler is and it's as rough as Corkscrew and much longer.

Not all of Nemesis supports are being replaced, from what I gather it's the ones around the Helix which if you look closely have had work done to them over the years. You're not far off ground level with these anyway.

 

[Matt N]

Not all retracks no, but if your rollercoaster is jolting and vibrating more than usual it means either something is worn or a track element or support is being put under greater pressures and stress than it would be if the ride was smooth. Steel, although very strong is still liable to stress fracturing and of course rust. In other words it doesn't last forever. Part of the reason Corkscrew and Black Hole were rough was because they were essentially not a fixed ride with supports concreted into the ground. Smiler is and it's as rough as Corkscrew and much longer.

Not all of Nemesis supports are being replaced, from what I gather it's the ones around the Helix which if you look closely have had work done to them over the years. You're not far off ground level with these anyway.

That is true, but that is not the only reason for roughness. Roughness can also be caused by jolts in the track profiling, which I’d say is a more likely reason for Smiler, seeing as it has a fair few notable jolts in its track profiling.

There can be often a correlation between roughness and structural need for a retrack, but correlation does not necessarily equal causation. You might have a smooth ride that has great structural need for a retrack, and you might also have a rough ride that’s has no structural need for a retrack at all.

Besides, even if roughness does correlate with structural need for a retrack in Smiler’s case, that might not necessarily stop them from doing it. As I said before, Blackpool Pleasure Beach are still retracking The Big One even though that ride is arguably just as rough as The Smiler, if not rougher, and arguably has worse build quality than The Smiler what with its many track reprofilings, botched supports and track connections, bolts flying off, wheels flying off and other structural ailments over the years.

As for Nemesis’ supports, 89 of the 117 support columns are being replaced as per the planning application, so the vast majority of Nemesis’ supports are being replaced. That basically lines up with the track being replaced; most of the support columns seem to be going apart from the ones for the lift hill, brake run and station:

 

[WVG]

I miss The Smiler when it was smooth


I remember it being my first upside down ride when I went on it in 2017 scarefest, still one of the best coaster experiences I've had on any roller coaster. But The Smiler now... easily the worst Secret Weapon there. Its horrendously rough and more painful than SAW. At least the indoor inversion on The Smiler is still mostly smooth. Merlin really don't think of the long term of their rides, do they? Wicker Man is already getting a little jolty, and Smiler is only 9 years old and makes me appreciate Colossus loads more nowadays when I visit Thorpe Park.

I miss the Smiler being great, it truly was the 2nd best there just under Nemmy.

I makes me wonder though, if Merlin wouldn't want Gerstlaur to retrack the smiler and would overall prefer the ride to last longer in smoother conditions, would they approach another Roller Coaster manufacturer, or a Steel manufacturer like Blackpool has done with the Big One?

I don't understand how anyone can still think The Smiler is rough? Compared to the rides I've had on Rita I still find Smiler quite smooth. Same with Colossus for me (I've only ridden it once) however I also found Colossus to be smooth.

 

[Matt.GC]

I think the "roughness" of coasters gets too much air time on this forum. A coaster can be as smooth as silk and be crap, another can be as rough as nails and awesome can it not?

The Smiler really isn't as smooth as it should be for a ride that's less than a decade old and it seems to be deteriorating fast (because it's not well built), but it's hardly "rough", just more uncomfortable than it should be. Nemesis is not as smooth as it used to be, and can even smash your ears about in places, but it's never been "rough".

If either coaster is so unbearable that people feel the need to talk about it all the time then may I suggest that theme park and coaster enthusiasm might not be for you? I've even seen complaints about Wickerman being "rough" and even before they did some re-tracking work on it, it was still the smoothest woodie I've probably ever ridden.

 

[Matt N]

I think the "roughness" of coasters gets too much air time on this forum. A coaster can be as smooth as silk and be crap, another can be as rough as nails and awesome can it not?

The Smiler really isn't as smooth as it should be for a ride that's less than a decade old and it seems to be deteriorating fast (because it's not well built), but it's hardly "rough", just more uncomfortable than it should be. Nemesis is not as smooth as it used to be, and can even smash your ears about in places, but it's never been "rough".

If either coaster is so unbearable that people feel the need to talk about it all the time then may I suggest that theme park and coaster enthusiasm might not be for you? I've even seen complaints about Wickerman being "rough" and even before they did some re-tracking work on it, it was still the smoothest woodie I've probably ever ridden.

For some people (myself included), it can be a factor in how much they enjoy the ride. Not the sole factor by any means (if it were, then many would have tiny kiddie and family coasters as their #1), but certainly a factor. For me, I don't enjoy being beaten up on a coaster that's past a certain level of roughness regardless of how good its layout might be on paper. I don't disagree that there are smooth coasters that I don't rank that highly, but comfort and rerideability are two key factors in how highly I rate a coaster. I also rate things that have an overall fun factor, and I'd argue that excessive roughness definitely takes away from that for me.

It's all about personal preference. I rate coasters that are fun, thrilling and rerideable rather than coasters that are purely intense, personally.

 

[Donkey]

Hi guys. As most of you probably know, Nemesis is being retracked in preparation for its 30th anniversary in 2024. This is a rather unusual event in the history of Alton Towers; as far as I’m aware, no ride has ever had a full retrack or like for like replacement. Nemesis was deemed special enough by the park to warrant rebuilding it like for like as opposed to replacing it with a brand new ride.

But that does call one thing into question for me. Will other rides receive the same treatment when their time comes, or will Nemesis be unique? It’s an interesting question… Nemesis is both the oldest SW and the first to be “removed”, so we’ve never had this question answered about any of the other SWs.

With that in mind, my question to you today is; do you think that the Nemesis retrack will be a fluke? Or do you think that other rides could receive the same treatment in the years to come?

Personally, I don’t think the Nemesis retrack will necessarily be a fluke. I think other rides could well receive the same treatment; certainly not all of them, but I think that some of Alton Towers’ current crop could receive the retrack treatment when their time comes.

In terms of which ones; my prediction for each of the non-Nemesis big coasters, I’d predict the following:

• Oblivion: Yes , this could get a retrack. The ride doesn’t take up an overly big area, and it’s similar to Nemesis in that removing and replacing it would be expensive and complicated. Given the complexity of the hole and how little track under stress there would be to replace, I think Oblivion could well be a fair bit easier to retrack than remove.
• Galactica: No, this probably won’t get a retrack. It doesn’t strike me as an overly popular ride, it takes up a considerable area (the largest area of any coaster on park, actually), and it would be a relatively easy ride to deconstruct and replace (it didn’t involve any major terraforming like Nemesis and Oblivion did, as far as I’m aware).
• Rita: No, this is extremely unlikely to get a retrack. Given that it’s only 17 years old and folk are already taking measurements of its area for an Intamin Blitz, I think Towers are unlikely to retrack it, personally. As much as I really like Rita, I’ll concede that there are more universally revered things they could do with the land.
• Thirteen: No, I don’t think this will get a retrack. Even now, only 11 years after its opening, there are considerably more advanced drop track coasters about, and I gather that the ride is not overly well liked aside from the drop track. It’s also becoming somewhat of a liability maintenance-wise as it ages, what with the whole “can’t run in the rain” thing and the other problems it’s been having.
• The Smiler: Yes, I think that this could very well get a retrack. I know that that might be a controversial opinion, but I’d argue that The Smiler is Alton Towers’ most famous and revered ride among the general park visiting populace, and it is similar to Nemesis in that it’s a very unique and compelling proposition on the worldwide roller coaster stage. I also think that given its high density and obscenely tightly packed layout, the possibility of them replacing it with something more revered is quite low. Say what you will about it, but I think that it’s the most well known and iconic ride at Alton Towers at present for the average visitor (and that’s not because of the crash, either), and it’s also quite possibly the most famous worldwide rollercoaster export the UK has to offer among the general populace. It’s constantly appearing in those “most insane roller coasters” videos and articles, and a lot of people know about it.
• Wicker Man: No, I don’t see this getting retracked. As much as I love Wicker Man, I’ll concede that it’s not an overly groundbreaking woodie on the world stage, and never was even when it opened. While it’s popular among the general park visiting populace now, time will tell as to whether it stands the test of time enough for a retrack… given that as I say, it’s not exactly a groundbreaking woodie from a track and train standpoint, I’m not sure I see it.

So all in all, then, I could see Oblivion and The Smiler both receiving retracks in the future, but I’m not sure about the others.

But do you agree with me in thinking that other rides might receive this treatment some day? Or do you think the Nemesis retrack will be a one-time event?

I think one of the factors with the Nemesis retrack is that coaster technology, CAD design, fatigue simulation and engineering methods have improved a lot in the last 30 years. If B&M designed the ride now they would probably have reprofiled some of the sections like the helix to be kinder for the ride's longevity. Hence why we see them adding an additional support to the helix and tinkering with the support structure in the tunnels a bit. Also they might not have factored in at the time how long they thought the ride would last and how it would transform the park's popularity (at the time mosts of the coasters were portable coasters which could be thrown up and down or moved quickly). It will be interesting to see if they tweak the track/support construction in certain places. I can't find it now but for the Incredible Hulk retrack someone did some comparison photos which show B&M using thicker box track sections in places like the bottom of the cobra roll and I-box supports instead of round columns in some random places.

Oblivion would be a curious one. I do wonder how long the track in the drop section and turnaround will last. If you look at the cross-ties in the hole entrance you do see that they collect a lot of water from rain and the mist so I wonder how well it is protected from corrosion. It does pull some strong G forces in places which are difficult to access and probably puts a lot of pressure on the footers in a few places. If you stand directly underneath the drop it is amazing how much the track bends when the shuttle comes over the drop as there is a long span of track which acts as a truss. It has fairly complex machinery as well on the lift/holding brake as well which will probably have a finite life as well. The shuttles could definitely do with some TLC at some point, especially the restraints which have become very sunbleached and mismatched in colour and I wonder if the chassis will be prone to cracks at some point from the forces. I can see them retracking it as it is an iconic ride and they would have issues getting another big ride approved in that area of the park although it might be quite a construction challenge to replace the track in the tunnel.

Galactica no, it is an maintenance pain, not that popular these days, at risk of the model being discontinued/unsupported by B&M (no new flyers built since 2016) and is a prime site for another development at some point in the future (especially expanding into more of the car park). I think they will try to get as many more years out of it as possible but at some point (10 years aged 30, possibly a bit optimitistic?) but will then go to be replaced by whatever the newest and greatest product on the market is.

Rita no, like above a maintenance pain and the hydraulic launch coaster is unofficially no longer supported by Intamin (none opened since 2010 and some have been removed). I doubt it would get an LSM treatment because it is nowhere near as iconic/popular as Top Thrill Dragster (which Intamin apparently have no involvement with the 'reimagining' anyway). I can see a similar sized Intamin Blitz or Mack launch coaster replacing it with the launch track in the same place. Gets big queues but only because the capacity is terrible. These newer models would have way better capacity.

Thirteen no, I can see it being run until it develops a major issue and potentially being down for a long time whilst the park decides whether to fix it or not. The track lifespan will not be the issue, it will be the other complicated machinery that will cause headaches. It is a popular ride for a particular audience of the park so I can see the park wanting to run it for as long as possible.

The Smiler no (despite its popularity). It is crazy how much some of the track and supports move when trains go by, it seems like it is trying to shake itself apart. It has a lot of trains moving on the track constantly when on 5 train operation and has a lot of places with strong forces so the track is probably under a lot of stress. I have my doubts about the overall build quality of the ride (remember when they were struggling to actually connect the final piece of track?) so not sure how long it will last. I think they will try to run it for as many years as possible and do repairs when necessary but when it becomes uneconomical to fix they will just tear it down and try to get planning permission to use the pit for something else.

Wicker Man yes/no, a bit of a moot question as it has already had a bit of retracking in places during one of the off-seasons just like most wooden coasters. I doubt it will ever get a full re-track as it will just be done in phases whenever one section gets particularly rough. It is one of their most popular rides for all demograhpcis so if they look after it properly it should last for a long time.

 

[MattyH]

Funnily enough, Steve is my local welder, and I would not trust him on the Big One.
Back on topic, has the reopening date been announced yet.
Is the full season closure actually known, or speculation?

All the press releases state it will reopen in 2024

 

[Skyscraper]

Back on topic, has the reopening date been announced yet.
Is the full season closure actually known, or speculation?

Someone's not been paying attention, have they?
The reopening date has yet to be announced and probably won't be until late 2023/early 2024. Towers have said in many press releases that it will reopen in 2024, and it was unsurprising as it will coincide with Nemmy's 30th (makes sense).

 

[rob666]

Someone's not been paying attention, have they?
The reopening date has yet to be announced and probably won't be until late 2023/early 2024. Towers have said in many press releases that it will reopen in 2024, and it was unsurprising as it will coincide with Nemmy's 30th (makes sense).

Sorry mate, there have been so many duff comments in so many duff topics recently, I have been struggling to filter out the actual facts.
The dark ride reopens next year, nemesis the year after, and we don't really know what, or when, only where, with the new shed at the top behind the towers.
Facts over... back to the bullshit and new bench.

 

[STEJENT]

I’ve been considering this for a while. I can’t see that any other rides would get the same treatment. It’s only happening for Nemesis because when someone mentions Alton Towers, this is the ride that people think of first. It’s almost what you would say as “culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant” and its removal would have a negative impact on the park and its status.
I look forward to riding it again in 2024 as it was 2004 when I first went on so never got to experience it as a new attraction.

I would be very interested to see if any of the old track will be used as theming and I pray for the return of the red rivers.
I’m not having it that it’s not possible to achieve that in an environmentally sound way.
Would love to hear what other people think will be done as part of this revamp as JW has said we can expect some positive changes, although the overall experience of the ride as we know it will be the same.

Hopefully it won’t become another Valhalla.

 

[Altonadvocate1]

Retracking Nemmie was essential. It's Iconic, world class/ beating, a queu gobbler and uses all of the restrictions placed upon Alton Towers to it's advantage in a way that I don't think could be improved.

I don't find The Smiler rough, and whilst a distant second to Nemmie, it's still a great coaster.

The only AT coaster I ever found rough was The Corkscrew in the last few years of its life.

Rita however! I hate her. Not rough, but really uncomfortable. Always have bruised shins as the leg room is insufficient for the launch G forces and a boring layout to boot.

I think Oblivion will receive a retrack eventually and I expect Wicker Man to be largely replaced in small stages over the years.

 

[Matt N]

With Thorpe Park now retracking Colossus, do we think that that could raise the chances of some of Alton’s other coasters being retracked?

 

[Altonadvocate1]

With Thorpe Park now retracking Colossus, do we think that that could raise the chances of some of Alton’s other coasters being retracked?

It's got be wondering if this could happen. I don't consider Colossus to be in any way iconic, world class or irreplaceable, but it's getting the treatment.

Personally, I want additional coasters, not replacement coasters (apart from Rita... Time for the scrap yard).

Forget RMC... B and M to retrack everything... Even Octonauts lol. (Actually with the tiny B and M boomerang at Chessington (I hate boomerangs.... Capacity wasters), who knows (serious, not serious).