The Queen dies, aged 96. The future of the monarchy

[DistortAMG]

I think a reasonable protest against the concept of a monarchy seems fine including the “not my king” stuff, as it is generally about the position not the individual but the heckling of Prince Andrew feels like the wrong time. I’ve no idea if he is guilty or not, but this doesn’t feel like the right environment to shout allegations in the street.

I would argue that the trafficking of children was the wrong time also. But he still (allegedly) did it. So I fail to see why there is a wrong time to shout nonce at him. He made his bed.....

 

[Plastic Person]

If anything has cemented my position as a Republican, something I was once on the fence about, it's the madness of this week. The whole country and media grinding to a temporary halt in parallel with a leadership change in government, an emerging energy crisis and well, everything else chaotically brewing in the UK right now, feels deeply off to me.

Nonetheless, I can respect the legacy of the Queen as an individual, as well as those who wish to pay their respects. If I look at it charitably, the (enforced) mourning period is in honour of the legacy of 72 years of a woman doing a job very well, a unifying and crucially, neutral force. Unfortunately, I find it impossible to extend that same courtesy to her heirs, who already have a reputation of meddling where they shouldn't, or seemingly, committing and then covering up sex crimes. Besides, I find the whole concept of a family having the god given right to rule absolutely archaic and the sort of thing we'll hopefully chuckle about with incredulity in a time to come, just as many other countries with imperial legacies already do. When we can still coin off the iconography in our gift shops.

Personally, with that aforementioned begrudging respect in mind, as well as realising that people seemingly do feel invested in these god given rulers, I wouldn't heckle a funeral procession, even one that lasts a week and temporarily halts the economy. But I can fully understand why others might. There has been a healthy strain of royal scepticism and satire in British society for centuries. The BBC might have briefly banned 'God Save The Queen' by The Sex Pistols back in 1977, but despite calls from certain quarters, they certainly weren't arrested for it. And nor should a lone student with a placard.

Still, try as I might to imagine her as the Nation's Cuddly Grandmother, you just can't depoliticise the death of the Queen. She is, after all, the actual Queen. But her passing comes amid a perfect cultural storm. We have the most nationalist government in recent memory looking for any excuse to crush the saboteurs, and institutions like the BBC and the police under pressure to prove their relevance or else suffer more marionette lines cut from their funding.

 

[Shaggy_Dog_]

The man was well within his rights to shout what he did.

What is the world coming to when one of the biggest sex trafficking scandals has been uncovered under our nose and we let people (potentially) involved walk near our schools and children because mommy has alot of money. Sorry no.

That’s absolutely true, the man was well within his rights to say what he did about Prince Andrew, and he said it with good reason.

However just because something is well within your rights it doesn’t necessarily make it a good idea to do so given a specific context and the police were well within their rights to arrest him. If the police hadn’t have taken him he may well have have had an angry and emotional crowd deal with him themselves perhaps with fists and feet as well as words.

But like I say, if you choose to go to what is essentially a funeral procession and shout something controversial you may well be perfectly within your rights to do so, and what you are saying may be perfectly true, but you have to accept and deal with the consequences of doing so.

 

[DistortAMG]

I absolutely agree to be fair and I agree that a funeral should not be heckeled.

There is one single exception however, when, like in this case, they allow someone who is more than likely a child sex criminal walk near our children and our schools when in said procession. I cannot accept that. Now I know he is not going to break away from the procession to start doing unspeakable things in schools. But it is the principle, absolutely the principle in this case. The man is clearly a danger to children, so are we allowing him near the places our children get educated and stand in the street. Funeral or not, that is a huge middle finger from the royal family to ourselves, else they would not allow it, given what is still very very fresh in peoples minds...

The royal family obviously knew what they were getting into, given how the public already feel about Andrew when they allowed him to walk our streets. This cannot have come to a surprise to them. It was one of the driving reasons he was pretty much sacked from Royal duties was it not?

 

[Plastic Person]

The problem with arguing for or against any of this stuff is that owing to the nature of the Monarchy, the situation is so unprecedented. You can't say, "Well, how would you feel if your Mother/Grandmother was given a week-long state funeral and nearly a million people turned up and then somebody started shouting that your Brother/Son was a nonce?"

Aside from the basic, bleak reality of death, the whole event is unfathomable. And that's even after watching four seasons of The Crown.

 

[pluk]

As always, what you read is going to be half a story, half a truth, an edited YouTube clip...

I think it is fair to say there have been thousands of anti monarchy types protesting in one way or another, a small handful have been arrested. That rather suggests those arrested were doing something particularly ill advised requiring intervention, not that protest is being prevented.

I've not seen anything much of any particular cases because I've very much switched off to the Royal rolling news, but I did see images of the first person who's arrest made the news carrying her sign with a massive F-word written on it. A very clear public order offence in its own right that wasn't mentioned on the reports.

 

[Plastic Person]

I've not seen anything much of any particular cases because I've very much switched off to the Royal rolling news, but I did see images of the first person who's arrest made the news carrying her sign with a massive F-word written on it. A very clear public order offence in its own right that wasn't mentioned on the reports.

I know that you tend to rely on your faith in and knowledge of the law in these instances, but do you honestly believe that the motivation to arrest the person wielding the explicitly anti-Monarchy placard at the Queen's death procession was their use of foul language? To once more quote Stewart Lee back at you, here's hoping "the court throw out the charges, on the grounds it's not 1508."

 

[pluk]

I know that you tend to rely on your faith in and knowledge of the law in these instances, but do you honestly believe that the motivation to arrest the person wielding the explicitly anti-Monarchy placard at the Queen's death procession was their use of foul language? To once more quote Stewart Lee back at you, here's hoping "the court throw out the charges, on the grounds it's not 1508."

Arrests don't rely on motivation, they rely on necessity.

(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he—

(a)uses threatening [F1or abusive] words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or

(b)displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening [F1or abusive],

Then comes necessity. Important to note that no officer can be instructed by any other, regardless of rank, to arrest someone. It is the officers decision alone based on the circumstances presented to them.

I can assure you that police everywhere spend a lot of time and effort defending the rights of people they fundamental disagree with. That's not to say that officers don't make mistakes or misjudgements of course, but to liken anything here to the actions of dictatorships is drastically wide of the mark.

Again, I know nothing of this case or any of the others, but officers don't get to pick and chose what laws they uphold. It's just the law and would be a neglect of duty not to uphold it.

 

[Matt.GC]

The republican view of what happened would be that the police are suppressing freedom of speech and ones right to protest. The pro-monarchy view would be that ghoulish people are being abusive and disrespectfully trying to breech the peace and thus should be locked up.

Stories like these sell newspapers and keep chat radio phone in hosts busy. So no one really has an incentive here to look at the situation objectively. As per usual, the truth of the circumstances will probably have far more to them than meets the eye.

There were always going to be protests, abuse, assault and high running feelings so it's likely this is another situation where any police officers decision on the day was going to be damned either way. This won't be the last of it either.

 

[DistortAMG]

It is very simple for me. Keep pedophiles away from our children and our schools.

While not convicted, the evidence is pretty strong.

Andrew was walking the streets, near children. It IS that simple.

The issues surrounding what the people did whom were arrested is more complex however.

 

[John_P]

It's interesting how protesting the idea of a monarchy is seen as not being the right time due to the period of national mourning.

However its in tradition for Charles to immediately take oaths and be seen as the King and go around to the different countries of the UK to show he's now in charge.

 

[Plastic Person]

Andrew was walking the streets, near children. It IS that simple.

Counterpoint: No it isn't.

While I agree that the case against Andrew seems pretty cut-and-dry to me, he has not been convicted of anything. And even if he had, a convicted sex offender would likely be able to pay respects to his mother. He is free to walk the streets as he pleases, even if he has to endure to odd heckle ("Sick old man", apparently, which feels almost polite!)

Granted, most sex offenders aren't in the societal and financial position to buy their way out of trouble, adjacent to the public purse. But then, most sex offenders don't have access to a man responsible for a global child sex trafficking ring with his own private island, either. Revisiting my earlier point, the very nature of the royal family make having an even-handed discussion about any of this stuff tougher than usual. It's an unprecedented situation.

 

[rob666]

Could I add that as a simple risk assessment, I do not think any adult would have left the prince alone with any person under the age of eighteen, at any time, during the procession.
No child or young person was put at risk in any way whatsoever.
They are putting his mum in a box, then in a hole.
Give him a bit of space.
Verbally abuse him from next Tuesday.

 

[DistortAMG]

Could I add that as a simple risk assessment, I do not think any adult would have left the prince alone with any person under the age of eighteen, at any time, during the procession.
No child or young person was put at risk in any way whatsoever.
They are putting his mum in a box, then in a hole.
Give him a bit of space.
Verbally abuse him from next Tuesday.

He has done inhumane things to people, ruined their lives. He gave his rights away for "a bit of space" from his actions. Could not care less if he is burying his mother to be honest. He does not deserve people to care, he does not deserve space from how he chose to treat other people.

So people should give him a break, do his victims get a break aswel?

 

[BigShadowtinytree]

I don’t know how Andrew can show his face and not feel embarrassed and ashamed of himself, vile man.

 

[pluk]

This has all got a bit hysterical.

Prince Andrew is accused of sexually assaulting a 17 year old. Horrible, yes, but a pedophile that does not make.

 

[Benzin]

This has all got a bit hysterical.

Prince Andrew is accused of sexually assaulting a 17 year old. Horrible, yes, but a pedophile that does not make.

It goes far deeper than a solitary 17 year old does it not?

Otherwise spending £12m of funds to cover it up seems a bit excessive no?


And yes, things have gotten very hysterical. From Centre Parcs, to M&S closing all stores (except the ones near where people will be), BBC live streaming the coffin at rest. All very "normal".

 

[DistortAMG]

Yeah I was going to say. There are much much more than a single person. Estimated in the hundreds.

 

[jon81uk]

This has all got a bit hysterical.

Prince Andrew is accused of sexually assaulting a 17 year old. Horrible, yes, but a pedophile that does not make.

I agree, while there might be more to Andrews relationship with Epstein none of that is known right now and shouting at someone in the street probably isn't the right place to debate that.

It goes far deeper than a solitary 17 year old does it not?

Otherwise spending £12m of funds to cover it up seems a bit excessive no?

Who knows, there have been no public allegations or charges and again I don't think shouting at someone outside a cathedral is the right place.

This thread isn't the right place to discuss what may or may not have happened either.

And yes, things have gotten very hysterical. From Centre Parcs, to M&S closing all stores (except the ones near where people will be), BBC live streaming the coffin at rest. All very "normal".

Most places are closing on Monday, why should only office workers and similar benefit from the bank holiday I don't see the issue with supermarkets and similar being closed similar to Christmas Day.
Also don't see the problem with the BBC livestreaming the lying-in-state (not on a main channel its a red button or iPlayer only thing), some people who can't make the trip to London may wish to see the crowd and the coffin and pay their respects in their own way. The last major similar thing was the Queen Mother lying-in-state in 2002 and I don't think offering a similar live-stream back then would have been as easy as technology has made things easier.

I agree the center parcs debacle is crazy though. Giving a majority of staff the day off makes sense, but forcing people out of accommodation for a day made no sense if they are in the middle of a seven night trip.

 

[DistortAMG]

There have been many more public allegations than that single girl.....loads infact. Including a couple who worked on Epstiens sex island making some very disturbing allegations against Prince Nonce.

There is no smoke without fire. To many people have stepped forward for it not to be true, then you had that BBC documentary by Andrew himself which turns out was total lies. Then his millions covering stuff up, when he claims he is innocent?

Nah.