The Smiler - General Discussion

[TheMan]

I've just deleted some off topic posts - contact me for questions/queries! feel free to re-post in The Tavern.

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Spoilsport

*Sticky out tongue*

Most rides shed bolts (certainly know Swarm and Oblivion have). But it does seem to be happening regularly.

Trouble is the ground work is so pants the track is probably being put under stupid stresses. Suppose they just have to hope it holds out the next 14 days so they can get it sorted properly in the closed season.

I was thinking about this, let's look at other ride designs, checking out Mack/B&M and even Intamin modern track, they all appear to me at least, to have more substantial connectors with multiple bolts.

That Gerst track just doesn't seem to be in the same league. If a bolt flies off one of those mack/B&M connectors for example, there are multiple bolts holding it together in a very strong way.

One or two clearly know more about this than I do, perhaps I am missing something, but it would not be such a major issue with those other manufacturers. That being said it seems obvious it isn't the track design, but it can be argued that it doesn't help matters.

 

[Rob]

The Smiler is somewhat of a laughing stock. It is an embarrassment. I don't like to have to say things like that but it's true.

In my opinion; Alton Towers, TG Cruise and Gerstlauer all have to take some responsibility in the shortcomings on this ride. Alton Towers left it far too late to plan and build this ride, resulting in a rushed job and insufficient time to survey the site properly and construct the ride. TG Cruise clearly did a shoddy job of the groundwork. Gerstlauer must have agreed to said shoddy groundwork plans, they can't have just said "yeah plonk our coaster on whatever concrete you like". There are probably other unknown parties who have to take some responsibility also.

That may all seem overly harsh to some but it is how I see it.

 

[GaryH]

Gerst will plonk their coaster anywhere when the ground works have been signed off by the company doing them. Their job and expertise is in building coasters, not pouring concrete. I think the rush job and poor timing by AT was highlighted by John Wardley when he talked about the coaster and the very short timescale it was to be built given its complex design.

I think come closed season, parts of the track may have to be dismantled, and even some of the ground work having to be dug up and re-laid. Alton seriously cant go through 2014 with this many breakdowns. Sure, Air broke down a lot during its first year, but that was due to computer problems, not bolts flying off the track.

I agree with Rob, it is a laughing stock and an emarrassment to Alton, and to some extent I know many working at Alton are just as frustrated with it as us.

 

[Rob]

I just can't imagine B&M for example allowing one of their coasters to be plonked on shoddy groundwork. I know there are many differences between B&M and Gerstlauer though.

I'm sure people at Towers are very frustrated with all the problems. Mark Kerrigan did admit to us all at the TT@10 event that they need to learn to start projects earlier so that they are not rushed. So Towers themselves do accept the problem. You'd like to think that the problems with The Smiler will make them seriously address the problem.

 

[BigDave]

Slightly off topic, but we were talking about some of the stuff the park have told us in these talks. According to the parks research, wooden roller coasters are seen as being unsafe and are hard to maintain. This is why the park refused to have one. I find it slightly amusing that now we are stuck with a steel roller coaster, that is often shut due to safety concerns and must be costing them a fortune to put right now and in the future.

 

[Scott]

Interestingly enough though the bolt didn't actually cause that much downtime. Obviously it shouldn't be sheering them at all (though it does happen on coasters from time to time) but at least this time the issue didn't cause any serious closures.

What is actually worse to me is the days that the ride has spent down due to the wobbly supports and resetting of concrete. That is far worse in my opinion than a piece of track under immense forces losing a bolt.

Equally shoddy were the stalls at the start of the ride's opening period but those seem to have been stopped now.


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[Benzin]

Shame it has these problems because the ride itself is fantastic...

Ran especially well last night, so clearly the issue in the middle of the day was rather moot...

Even the Cobra Roll wasn't awful...

Although, Air's retracting bar did snap, so that's the equivalent of a popping bolt...

 

[Dave]

I was thinking about this, let's look at other ride designs, checking out Mack/B&M and even Intamin modern track, they all appear to me at least, to have more substantial connectors with multiple bolts.

That Gerst track just doesn't seem to be in the same league. If a bolt flies off one of those mack/B&M connectors for example, there are multiple bolts holding it together in a very strong way.

One or two clearly know more about this than I do, perhaps I am missing something, but it would not be such a major issue with those other manufacturers. That being said it seems obvious it isn't the track design, but it can be argued that it doesn't help matters.

Nearly all tri-track coasters use 6 bolts to connect two pieces together. B&M use more but their track is heavy (though they use smaller bolts). And as already mentioned all coasters shed bolts (just not as regular).

To be honest i would guess coaster manufacturers specify foundations and thats about it, it's upto the park to ensure they are done right (indeed in an interview about Nemesis Walter Bolliger said that they get undue praise for the complexity of Nemesis's site as it was the park that had to sort out the foundations and not them). Every problem the Smiler has had can be traced back to shoddy groundwork (except maybe the stalling). If the ground work is shifting then you put stresses on the track it wasn't designed for.

People are looking at Smiler like it's the only Gerst coaster, but there are a hundred of Gersts around the world and non of the others are doing the same, logic suggests then that something other than the fabrication of the track is the problem here.

 

[TheMan]

Shame it has these problems because the ride itself is fantastic...

Ran especially well last night, so clearly the issue in the middle of the day was rather moot...

Even the Cobra Roll wasn't awful...

Although, Air's retracting bar did snap, so that's the equivalent of a popping bolt...

The ride definitely felt a bit smoother last week to me too, there were times it actually felt genuinely smooth, not just comparatively smooth. Only in little parts, but when it did it was magnificent. I SO wish they had got this right.

ultimately though, they haven't

People are looking at Smiler like it's the only Gerst coaster, but there are a hundred of Gersts around the world and non of the others are doing the same, logic suggests then that something other than the fabrication of the track is the problem here.

Good points, to clarify my post I wasn't blaming the track fabrication, it is pretty obvious the issues are the construction, it is just a fact though that so few bolts, when one goes, it is a much bigger deal than that Mack track for example. Perhaps this, given the tightness/site/pressure on the track, was just not a wise move to use that style of tri-track? None of us know how bad the ground is moving, and again I could be totally off piste here but Oblivion's tunnel right next door isn't going anywhere - so it proves it can certainly be done on that site. It just seems the ground work is shoddy, and Gerst tri-track on such an extreme coaster perhaps was not the right choice?

If you think about the accuracy required for such a track, there really can't be very much room for error at all. With that in mind, you want everything to be able to absorb some flexibility surely?

 

[Rob]

People are looking at Smiler like it's the only Gerst coaster, but there are a hundred of Gersts around the world and non of the others are doing the same, logic suggests then that something other than the fabrication of the track is the problem here.

Gerstlauer may not be the main source of blame but I do feel that they have to take some responsibility. At the end of the day it is them that built the coaster, and things that go wrong make them look bad. Not many people are going to know that TG Cruise did the groundwork, it's much easier to see that Gerstlauer built the ride.

It's a bit like a problem I had with Amazon last week. I had paid to receive an item on the day it was being released. However it did not arrive on the day of release. It had been dispatched on time so the delay was mainly Royal Mails fault. I emailed Amazon about the issue and they gave me a full refund on delivery. The accepted responsibility as they know that delays from couriers look bad on them. I know it's a different scenario but I think a relation can be made.

At the end of the day though there are so many lessons that can be learnt from The Smiler going forward. It's just you wouldn't expect such lessons to have to be learnt at such a high profile and established theme park such as Alton Towers.

 

[Jordan]

Gerstlauer weren't paid to survey the ground. Everything they were hired to do will have a clear separation from that of T.G. Cruise and other contractors.

 

[GaryH]

^^ Agree.

Going back to the point made by someone about B&M and Alton having to sort out of the groundwork for it. B&M would have built their coaster there if the Alton groundworks team had signed off the work. B&M wouldnt know what was shoddy and what wasnt lets be honest. Their job, like Gerst, is to build the coaster on top of it.

Lets say Nemmie then started popping the odd bolt, or breaking down like this, would we then blame Alton groundworks, or B&M? While the groundworks under the Smiler are questionable however, I think Gerst also have some questions to answer, in particular that wobbly support, and if we recall, the track not fitting together properly at the very end. There could be undue pressures on areas of track which were not forseen during the design stage.

 

[Rob]

It's all a huge combination of things and we'll never know exactly who is to blame as all the juicy information will be kept internal at Towers.

One thing I have noticed whilst riding the last few times is that it just doesn't feel right going through some of the inversions, especially the ones it takes at a higher speed. You can almost feel the strain being caused by the train passing through the inversions. It's hard to explain it any better, but it just doesn't feel entirely normal. Don't know if anyone else has noticed a similar feeling?

 

[Hitch]

I would just like to throw something out there, TG Cruse have done groundwork for numerous coasters. Did Saw, Thirteen or The Swarm have groundwork issues.. Not from what I know off, there's definitely more to this than meets the eye I think all three companies have collectively messed up here.

 

[James]

Saw had some ground issues. Although it was known from the start the land where Saw sits is crap. The Swarm didn't seem to have any problems.

 

[GaryH]

Of course, we dont know if groundwork is the issue here, it may be that there are undue stresses on parts of the ride and some of the supports may need adjusting come closed season - remember that gap in the track when the final piece went in......

 

[Hitch]

Im certainly starting to consider the idea that the track might be the issue, and the fact gert use so little bolts is causing to much stress on the bolts that are already there.
Remember when they did this before the ride opened -

(picture credit to Towers Times)
I wonder if they hadn't of added more bolts to these supports would we have started seeing bolts snapping from these supports? And I will certainly be interested to see if they do more of this over closed season. there is already scaffolding lying in pit ready for use, they are obviously going to be doing something to the track.

 

[Ted]

Alton's maintenance of Smiler summed up in one video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8szWccJvb4#

 

[DiogoJ42]

It's all a huge combination of things and we'll never know exactly who is to blame as all the juicy information will be kept internal at Towers.

Exactly. If you've ever watched Airchrash Investigation, there is always a combination of factors the lead up to the accident. But ultimately, it can always be traced back to one single human error, without which the other problems would have been minor.

You are right though, Towers will do their best to keep the actual cause quiet, and pretend everything is fine. Can't really blame them tbh, even with my cinicism. I'd like to think that with all our connections, somehow word will spread.

 

[James]

Mr Twirly's done a runner!

Not the best of pictures. But it's gone!

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I'll add some longer views tomorrow on my experience of The Smiler. On the whole though, a good, solid and fun ride. My shoulders did get battered a bit but I've experienced far worse! The next Nemesis? No. But after riding it yesterday I don't even thing people should compare the two. I also love the music score to the ride. The ride music and visual material is utterly brilliant. I'd go as far as the best audio and visual material to date at Alton Towers.