[The Smiler] Marketing discussion

[Dave]

Guy who played Gerry?

Are you saying Dr K is a real person and Gerry is his secret identity?

No.... i'm just an idiot

 

[Fredward]

Got my hopes up then!

 

[TheMan]

Guess who is currently looking after the kids in wobble world?

Dr Kelman!!!!!!!

Don't know how to upload a photo to prove it though

The guy who plays Dr K worked for Alton Towers entertainments team before he was Dr K, ents run wobble-world so he is often in there.

Don't expect Dr Kelman to be wandering around the Smiler, I get the feeling those videos where intended to move the story away from The Sanctuary.

I have said it before and I will say it again. That is stupidity.

Not using Dr K for this is just being obstinate. He is by far the best character Alton Towers have and they MUST use him for it! It will increase the impact of the queue and introduction 10 fold.

It seems a role he was just born to play in this case.

Dr K. FTW!

 

[Dave]

Guess who is currently looking after the kids in wobble world?

Dr Kelman!!!!!!!

Don't know how to upload a photo to prove it though

The guy who plays Dr K worked for Alton Towers entertainments team before he was Dr K, ents run wobble-world so he is often in there.

Don't expect Dr Kelman to be wandering around the Smiler, I get the feeling those videos where intended to move the story away from The Sanctuary.

I have said it before and I will say it again. That is stupidity.

Depends really, Dr K and the Sanctuary story make for a good back-story but by not having them as part of The Smiler (obviously they are mentioned on the screens) it returns some of the Oblivion esque mystery to the power behind the Smiler in much the same vein as Oblivion has.

Sort of a best of both worlds, you get some back-story but that story is only one part of the bigger mystery. Depends how much thought you want to invest in ride themes really.

 

[TheMan]

Depends really, Dr K and the Sanctuary story make for a good back-story but by not having them as part of The Smiler (obviously they are mentioned on the screens) it returns some of the Oblivion esque mystery to the power behind the Smiler in much the same vein as Oblivion has.

Sort of a best of both worlds, you get some back-story but that story is only one part of the bigger mystery. Depends how much thought you want to invest in ride themes really.

Ok, what you say makes sense I can appreciate it but you are wrong

Dr K rises above logic, reason, back story - he is a character that people invest in, and will really have a positive impact of peoples experience of the day. Forget everything else, just GET HIM IN.

OH, and it is fantastic to hear he is presently marmalising children by way of pre-school Sanctuary haha!!

"Where is Dr K. Today" is becoming quite brilliant.

 

[electricBlll]

Dr K rises above logic, reason, back story - he is a character that people I invest in, and will really have a positive impact of peoples my experience of the day.

Just 'correcting' you there. :twirly:

The Smiler, being a huge long term investment, was surely designed way before The Sanctuary ever was. I'm sure, since it was so well received, that they want to drop little hints to Dr Kelman and the like, but it's probably not encompassing enough to prop up such a major ride.

It has been repeatedly proven that the average British theme park visitor cares little for stories and characters, especially on rollercoasters. If they devote some time to introducing the characters and making them interesting, then it could be effective. However, I'm sure most people would much rather hurry up and get on the ride rather than have the context explained to them.

As Dave said, it's much more fun to fuel people's imaginations!

 

[TheMan]

Dr K rises above logic, reason, back story - he is a character that people I invest in, and will really have a positive impact of peoples my experience of the day.

Just 'correcting' you there. :twirly:
It has been repeatedly proven that the average British theme park visitor cares little for stories and characters, especially on rollercoasters. If they devote some time to introducing the characters and making them interesting, then it could be effective. However, I'm sure most people would much rather hurry up and get on the ride rather than have the context explained to them.

People love a character no matter where they are, or grown men would not still visit comicon or whatever it's called so that's not true.

It suddenly becomes irrelevant in a roller coaster? Alton is a park based on theme and character, and the success of the wraiths also prove this is not true.

It is not story, it is interaction, and like it or not queues will be long, so having a character representing the ride, and getting involved in the theme just creates more immersion.

I am standing firm by Dr K. being a stupid decision not to include if they don't. There's a mass of experiences that prove characters go down well. It is about interaction and entertainment whilst hanging around.

I honestly do not understand how anyone can think him being around would not draw interest. Everyone knows the park comes to life when scarefest & fright nights are around. Why? It brings an energy that no theme by itself ever will.

It's just so bloody obvious

 

[electricBlll]

People love a character no matter where they are, or grown men would not still visit comicon or whatever it's called so that's not true. It suddenly becomes irrelevant in a roller coaster? Alton is a park based on theme and character, and the success of the wraiths also prove this is not true.

You are talking as if Doctor Kelman is a persona that people can dress up as and have meet-and-greet shows with. The wraiths lasted a few months, just to promote the ride, then disappeared. All they did was walk up to people and make them react (which is fun but not worth spending £££ to hire the actors), and Thirteen is at no greater loss without them.

Doctor Kelman is different, they can't employ the same actor to forever roam around X-Sector. Realistically, he might feature in a preshow video, or something like that. But even then, I find that videos are very difficult to get right:

Look at the Oblivion preshow videos. Now, personally I think they are really well-made, original and very funny, but hardly anybody pays attention to them. It doesn't matter too much, since the ride experience doesn't totally rely on the Lord of Darkness character.

The Sub-Terra queue video, on the other hand, simply exists for exposition rather than entertainment, and people quite rightly ignore it. What's worse, it just plays on a loop outside without any context, unlike Oblivion's videos which have their own "briefing" rooms. There's also random rubbish like Zufari, which is simply an obstacle for getting on the ride.

It's pretty certain that The Smiler will feature some kind of visual pre show. If it features Dr Kelman, I hope the pre show doesn't try and explain his character or his backstory too much, since that would serve little purpose other than to satisfy fans of The Sanctuary. After a long queue, riders will want something that actually adds to their experience, not just having a story forced on them. Personally I think that big indoor queue building has a lot of potential for a great build up. We'll see, shall we?

When I say the British public don't react well to stories, I'm referring to rides like The Fifth Dimension, Terror Tomb and Hex 1.0 - all of which had to be modified because the riders didn't engage in the story enough. It's cool to release a few promotional videos with them, but if Miles Cedars, Trish and Doctor Kelman make it into the finished product, they will probably become dated and tiresome quite quickly. That's not my opinion, it's generally the rule.

 

[TheMan]

All they did was walk up to people and make them react (which is fun but not worth spending £££ to hire the actors), and Thirteen is at no greater loss without them.

Au contraire my good man, much research has proven what you said there to be a fallacy.

Experiences are worth more long term than anything materialistic. People gain MORE joy and and more willing to spend again, when there is an overall experience so it is indeed worth spending the money.

It is also, a reason why the likes of Disney et al are much lauded. You can relate to something living, easier than something that just provides thrill.

The evidence, shows that experience is actually more important. The better you make that, and the closer you tie those experiences to relationships, things that move, exist, interact - the more memorable they are.

The Wraiths were anything BUT a waste of money. Long term of course, different matter, it would indeed get tiresome after a while.

This why I think they should be going all out with characters for interaction.

 

[Dave]

All they did was walk up to people and make them react (which is fun but not worth spending £££ to hire the actors), and Thirteen is at no greater loss without them.

Au contraire my good man, much research has proven what you said there to be a fallacy.

Experiences are worth more long term than anything materialistic. People gain MORE joy and and more willing to spend again, when there is an overall experience so it is indeed worth spending the money.

It is also, a reason why the likes of Disney et al are much lauded. You can relate to something living, easier than something that just provides thrill.

The evidence, shows that experience is actually more important. The better you make that, and the closer you tie those experiences to relationships, things that move, exist, interact - the more memorable they are.

The Wraiths were anything BUT a waste of money. Long term of course, different matter, it would indeed get tiresome after a while.

This why I think they should be going all out with characters for interaction.

The three rides ElectricBill mentions are all rides that guests reacted badly too, primarily because the story was to complex. If you want to take Disney as an example they rarely have complex stories to their rides. The ones that do have such a story have a strong IP behind them to help.

For example

Haunted Mansion - No story, its a haunted house
Phantom Manor - Some story added but its very light (jilted bride tormented by a phantom).
Space Mountain - No story other than your going into space
RocknRoller coaster - No story
Pirates of the Caribbean - Before the films was a journey through a few random pirate related scenes.
Expedition Everest - Mountain journey.... Maybe there is a Yeti.

The difference between a good theme story and a bad one is best shown comparing Expedition Everest, Th13teen and 5th Dimension.

EE has a vague story, there is a lot of hints to what you are going to see but its not spelled out for you, it's hinted at and if you want to get involved in the story its possible, and it helped create a coherent theme. Th13teen has no story so its got a jumbled theme with no atmosphere. 5th dimension confused riders with complexity, so riders turned off.

Rides are dynamic pieces of machinery that don't give the rider much time to think about complexity. Few rides have successfully incorporated a strong story into the ride and they are always dark-rides and then they are rare.

 

[Plastic Person]

The difference with Disney though, is that people are already predisposed to their brand, characters and world. Universal are doing amazing things with Harry Potter, but Disney have the mouse. And unfortunately, they can't have a walk around Daniel Radcliffe.

Alton actually had an incredibly strong brand of characters and magical imagery in the early 90s, which they chose to kill off. Efteling have managed to update their branding and style repeatedly but kept their mascots on board.

The Smiler is about an all encompassing force, a sinister schematic. I think the theme is very strong, clear and everyone will get it. I actually think it would be hampered by a bloke walking around, pretending to be a mad Doctor, as much as I like the Kelman character for the role he has already served.

 

[TheMan]

I'm not about themes and rides though, I am talking about ways rides interact and extend their theme into reality more in a human fashion.

Having a few people wandering round, creeping people out, and having Dr K talking to people in the way only he can, is only going to add to the experience vs not being there.

That's my opinion, I am sticking with it, and there is a fair bit of research into what the human mind reacts well to that led me to forming it.

 

[KingNemesis]

RocknRoller coaster - No story

Well.. A very light one.. A story for stories sake.. (Aerosmith in recording studio, they have to get to a gig, You are aloud to go see them so you get in a fast limo to go to see aerosmith (with backstage passes) the ride then takes place as you are 'driving' round the city)

But I have to agree with your points

 

[Plastic Person]

I do think it's something that could definitely happen for a few weeks or months, but I don't think it's integral to the ride or the theme at all, is my argument. As in, I agree it'd be a nice bonus, but the whole thing makes enough sense without his presence.

 

[Scott]

I'm not about themes and rides though, I am talking about ways rides interact and extend their theme into reality more in a human fashion.

Having a few people wandering round, creeping people out, and having Dr K talking to people in the way only he can, is only going to add to the experience vs not being there.

That's my opinion, I am sticking with it, and there is a fair bit of research into what the human mind reacts well to that led me to forming it.

Im under the impression though that you think that Kelman should be some kind of walkabout character for the ride - which is set long after The Sanctuary has closed... That doesn't make chronological sense and it also isn't possible anyway. The character can only be played by one man and you cant have him walking about at all times...

I still think its impossible to judge the effect or lack of effect the theme will have until we turn up and experience it all for ourselves.

 

[KingNemesis]

It will be interesting to see if they are any walk about characters on opening day!
Do what N:ST did and pick people out the queue at random.

But make it relevant to the theme and story

"You look miserable, You need to be corrected sooner!"

 

[TheMan]

I'm not about themes and rides though, I am talking about ways rides interact and extend their theme into reality more in a human fashion.

Having a few people wandering round, creeping people out, and having Dr K talking to people in the way only he can, is only going to add to the experience vs not being there.

That's my opinion, I am sticking with it, and there is a fair bit of research into what the human mind reacts well to that led me to forming it.

Im under the impression though that you think that Kelman should be some kind of walkabout character for the ride - which is set long after The Sanctuary has closed... That doesn't make chronological sense and it also isn't possible anyway. The character can only be played by one man and you cant have him walking about at all times...

I still think its impossible to judge the effect or lack of effect the theme will have until we turn up and experience it all for ourselves.

LOOK! If Harold from Neighbours can come back after apparently losing his memory all those years ago, we can get away with a bit of Dr K. wandering round!!

*Not an entirely serious post as, with respect, bored of it*

I like Dr K. He works well with the public. I'd like him to be around for the first few weeks to entertain rather than him be in the queue for bloody Ice Age or Wobble World.

 

[Scott]

I would only want him to be around if it makes thematic sense. I'm not sure it would... However, it's impossible to judge until we experience it

 

[Fredward]

Disney rides have a story, pre shows, theme and a consistent background so for those who enjoy story can be entertained, but its not essential to know the story, so for those who want just a ride can be entertained.

Most rides at Disney have a well thought out and complex background stories, but the main story the ride is built on is simple.

RnRC (paris) for example.

Basic story:

a roller coaster based around Aerosmith.

Complex story:

Welcome to tour De force records, today with have Aerosmith in the studio putting the finishing touches on their new rollercoaster soundtracker system thingy. Join them in the studio. To experience this ride, walk this way...


Enjoyable for both parties, same goes for ToT, Expedition Everest, ext.

 

[Harv]

I mean this in the greatest respect, TheMan, but I do feel that sometimes your adoration of The Sanctuary and Dr. Kelman in particular has seeped into your interpretation of the theme. If Dr. Kelman's persona has ticked your box, and the theatricality of his character has swayed you into enjoying the whole idea more, then that's great news and I'm pleased that Towers has had such an effect - it proves that The Sanctuary was triumphant in its purpose..

Nonetheless, for 99% of visitors, it really won't be that big a deal. Some people will refer to The Smiler as 'the big black one - no, the one with loops' and that'll be it, some will subconsciously recognize the theme but won't really need to say it, and only a minority will ride the attraction and predominantly relate it to the Sanctuary whilst recalling the theme explicitly.

It may seem a tad deep and a fickle argument for me to pursue, but in my honest opinion, Dr. Kelman just won't have the desired effect if he's stood next to a colossal, 14-inversion rollercoaster. The rollercoaster is the show in itself, it isn't as personal as a scaremaze. It doesn't work that way as far as I can see it.