Thorpe Park: General Discussion

[Smiley]

I know people think I'm nuts for my maverick ideas, but I'll say it again anyway... IF you're designing a near-stall element, have a few LIMs or trims to maintain speed to overcome a total stall. I know it's not so easy to retro-fit, so I'd have designed it in. OR design in if a rollback occurs (e.g. Stealth).

I'm no coaster designer, but I know round wheels are better than square ones. And a near stall is, er, well, nearly a stall. LIMs have the possibility to not only create a near stall (where gravity is not keeping you in your seat) to a full stall (and restart). THAT would be a cool coaster element.

 

[DistortAMG]

I know people think I'm nuts for my maverick ideas, but I'll say it again anyway... IF you're designing a near-stall element, have a few LIMs or trims to maintain speed to overcome a total stall. I know it's not so easy to retro-fit, so I'd have designed it in. OR design in if a rollback occurs (e.g. Stealth).

I'm no coaster designer, but I know round wheels are better than square ones. And a near stall is, er, well, nearly a stall. LIMs have the possibility to not only create a near stall (where gravity is not keeping you in your seat) to a full stall (and restart). THAT would be a cool coaster element.

Correct me if I am wrong, but placing LIMs or LSMs on banked track is extremely difficult / almost impossible, as the banking of the track doesnt allow proper distance between the train and motors. Something that needs extremely precise and constant distances to work.

Exactly the same reason why you almost never see transport wheels and brake fins placed on flat bends and or banked track. Very, very rare. Under train transports wheels, like the type that Oblivion use, can sort of be placed on corners (but not on that ride), pinch ones that rides like Nemesis and Thirteen use, cant really be placed on corners, they dont work well if at all, specially for the exact same reason brakes and LIM / LSMs can't be on corners / banked track.

 

[Benzin]

They will even have regularly calibrated tools I would imagine.

I'd hope so given it's generally a requirement within engineering industry to have calibration certificates readily available.

 

[flyingguitar]

Nope - all components will have torque figures supplied by the manufacturer, Thorpe will adhere to these religiously.

Mack’s area.

In fact, tightening things up willy willy to whatever tighness you want, as was suggested, is not only dangerous, it can have outright catastrophic consequences for the safety of riders and the ride. A huge, huge no no. You tighten things to specification, as outlined by the manufacturer.

The tightness I referred to is what is known as preload in the wheels, this is often able to be adjusted by the park and is essentially how tight the wheels are clamping on the track, too loose and it will wobble down the track causing extra drag, too tight and it will clamp on the track and cause extra drag.
There are usually manurfacture windows for this, but it may be between a very smooth ride, but high drag and wobbly ride but low drag.

Everything stated there boils down to the operating parameters of the ride. The ride clearly has a VERY slim operating window it can operate in without stalling, and without the park having to adjust the things you have mentioned to try widen the operating window.

That in itself, is a design flaw. In a country where you need a coaster with quite a wide operating window, due to our huge variation in weather, we have a coaster with a slim window, which again, results in the park having to tinker with the things you mention more often than usual compared with other rides, to try get it working in conditions it cannot always operate in.

That is a text book 101 design flaw! It may not be a design flaw if the ride operated in a different part of the world / climate, but it makes it a design flaw here, in the UK with UK weather.

It's operating window isn't that narrow, you have to realise 2 things:
Thorpe wanted a ride with a lot of stall elements, this means it will be more prone to stalling.
This is thorpes first ride that can stall, a lot of other rides they have would be really difficult to stall, when you have that, the park just needs to be more careful, and watch it closer this is the trade off with having a ride with stall elements, it isn't really a design flaw they would have know it would be more likely to stall, it is a trade off for getting the stall elements.

 

[rob666]

Sorry, but the ride fails in operation as planned, repeatedly and regularly.
Basic design flaw, however you try to dance around it.
Should not stall.
Should not need a couple of hours with (queue drenching) water dummies to warm up.

 

[Smiley]

Correct me if I am wrong, but placing LIMs or LSMs on banked track is extremely difficult / almost impossible, as the banking of the track doesnt allow proper distance between the train and motors. Something that needs extremely precise and constant distances to work.

It's 2025 mate! A nanometre is a huge distance But seriously, you can measure speed at any point earlier and use LIM/LSM to increase speed accordingly. Part of the design process. If you want a stall element, have an "anti-stall" element!

102 years ago (1923) engineers managed to design and build the Big Dipper (BPB) - fantastic woodie with all the issues wood has to offer. 102 years later, with fantastically fine tolerances and steel, we can't built a working coaster.

Let's blame the weather!!

 

[flyingguitar]

Sorry, but the ride fails in operation as planned, repeatedly and regularly.
Basic design flaw, however you try to dance around it.
Should not stall.
Should not need a couple of hours with (queue drenching) water dummies to warm up.

In my point of view it is more that the type of ride just has higher risk of stall, like a spaghetti bowl coaster.
Thorpe wanted high stall elements, they will increase the chance of stalling because you are getting close to stalling on purpose.

It is a trade off, either no stall elements or a risk of stalling, if you want stall elements then you will have a higher chance of stalling, thus the ride should be monitored when running test runs to ensure it is set up correctly.

It is like supper cars, they aren't as reliable as a normal car and cost more to maintain and repair, but that trade off is that you get a more powerful (and probably) faster car.

 

[flyingguitar]

It's 2025 mate! A nanometre is a huge distance But seriously, you can measure speed at any point earlier and use LIM/LSM to increase speed accordingly. Part of the design process. If you want a stall element, have an "anti-stall" element!

102 years ago (1923) engineers managed to design and build the Big Dipper (BPB) - fantastic woodie with all the issues wood has to offer. 102 years later, with fantastically fine tolerances and steel, we can't built a working coaster.

Let's blame the weather!!

You try adding the magnets to the bottom of those trains, the underside is full with seat controls, etc.

There may be a similar type operating with lim, but they don't have chain dogs, ARB's etc. There is a reason why a ride with a chain and lim launch don't exist (or are at least extraordinarily rare)

 

[DistortAMG]

It's 2025 mate! A nanometre is a huge distance But seriously, you can measure speed at any point earlier and use LIM/LSM to increase speed accordingly. Part of the design process. If you want a stall element, have an "anti-stall" element!

102 years ago (1923) engineers managed to design and build the Big Dipper (BPB) - fantastic woodie with all the issues wood has to offer. 102 years later, with fantastically fine tolerancesteel, we can't built a working coaster.

Let's blame the weather!!

Okay then. Show me a single modern rollercoastrr that uses LSMs, LIMs, brakes or transports on banked track.

Ive made it easy for you. I suppose you could install them on straight track before the element, that would not work in Hyperias case though as it would require a large re design of the track.

 

[Poisson]

I'd hope so given it's generally a requirement within engineering industry to have calibration certificates readily available.

Sounds like the industry I work in then, all equipment that goes out has fully traceable calibration certs. I would have been surprised if they hadn't, but I'm not making assumptions like some are.

 

[jon81uk]

Okay then. Show me a single modern rollercoastrr that uses LSMs, LIMs, brakes or transports on banked track.

Ive made it easy for you. I suppose you could install them on straight track before the element, that would not work in Hyperias case though as it would require a large re design of the track.

Thats the point, it should have been designed correctly from day one.

It shouldn't need to consider whether the track is banked or not, or where to add them in the future, as the elements should have been correctly designed from day one.

 

[Smiley]

FFS (said in jest ) But you've made you're own argument. DESIGN the stall out of it. Don't NOT design a near stall, but design a full stall out. Just crappy design... In the same way it could run two trains on the track with clever block design and some LIMS etc to get it out of a exceptional occurrence.


Want good coaster design - Full Throttle at 6FMM is awesome. And that's 10 years old! Still, let's be a metre taller that adds SFA to the ride....

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

It's operating window isn't that narrow,

Erm?

wheels too loose, added drag, wheels too tight, added drag, random gust, too much grease in a bearing, increased drag, etc.

It is a process of figuring out the correct tigtnesses of all the components and how to best optimise the train

The tightness I referred to is what is known as preload in the wheels, this is often able to be adjusted by the park and is essentially how tight the wheels are clamping on the track, too loose and it will wobble down the track causing extra drag, too tight and it will clamp on the track and cause extra drag.

really difficult to stall, when you have that, the park just needs to be more careful, and watch it closer

In my point of view it is more that the type of ride just has higher risk of stall,

they will increase the chance of stalling because you are getting close to stalling on purpose.

if you want stall elements then you will have a higher chance of stalling,

the ride should be monitored when running test runs to ensure it is set up correctly.

 

[flyingguitar]

Erm?

and?

I said the operating window isn't that narrow, that doesn't have any relation to the other comments,

the talk about how having near stall elements increasing the chance of stalling is just that, it may narrow the operating window, but that dosn't mean the opperating window is tiny, just smaller than a ride without near stall elements and as a result it should be monitored to ensure that if someone mis setup the ride it won't stall.

you also have to realise that wheel compounds and preload will impact the operating window, harder compunds, optimised preload it will run faster and you can have a wider operating window

it is a balance as thorpe will want the ride running as slow as possible, that was more what I was originally trying to say.

all rollercoasters will have wheel preload, that comment is correct for all rollercoasters, if you want to know more about it, this explains it a reasonable amount:

From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSUMY4ArGxk&t=1105s

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

I said the operating window isn't that narrow

...

it may narrow the operating window

You have made a lot of posts and replies here literally explaining the narrow margins of the operating window.

You have explained, in depth, how conditions have to be just right for the ride to work optimally, and how wavering outside of that will cause it to stall.

The ride is fun, and I love how brave some of the design choices were, but the ride demonstrably doesn't have as wide a range of operating conditions as required.

The requirement is not to stall and to have optimal uptime. The ride is bespoke, it was designed and built specifically for Thorpe Park. It was designed and built specifically for the environmental conditions that Thorpe Park has. It was designed and built specifically to be that height, to have those elements, to have that speed. The ride does not have as wide a range of operating conditions as required for the above considerations.

The ride had a narrow operating window. You've spent the last few pages telling us so.

Anyone have any insight on Stealth?

 

[flyingguitar]

You have made a lot of posts and replies here literally explaining the narrow margins of the operating window.

You have explained, in depth, how conditions have to be just right for the ride to work optimally, and how wavering outside of that will cause it to stall.

The ride is fun, and I love how brave some of the design choices were, but the ride demonstrably doesn't have as wide a range of operating conditions as required.

The requirement is not to stall and to have optimal uptime. The ride is bespoke, it was designed and built specifically for Thorpe Park. It was designed and built specifically for the environmental conditions that Thorpe Park has. It was designed and built specifically to be that height, to have those elements, to have that speed. The ride does not have as wide a range of operating conditions as required for the above considerations.

The ride had a narrow operating window. You've spent the last few pages telling us so.

I feel like you and I have a different definition of not that X,

to me it is essentially saying it isn't that narrow, but that doesn't mean it is amazing, e.g if it is not that small it doesn't mean it was medium sized, it means it is like in-between, so not that narrow I mean to be a reasonably widish window although on the smaller side.

what I would consider to be a narrow operating window would be Hagrid's (especially opening year) as there are timings required for each train to enter and exit precisely, and quite a bit could affect that and cause delays (especially due to how many launches there were). there was also some other principals such as BTM, if they don't sent a train every 40 secs, it will e-stop the ride if not fixed within 5 mins (or sometimes, it will do it anyway) it will require the whole ride to be shut down, tecs to arrive, evac people etc (known as a cascade failure)

 

[Matt N]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think @GooseOnTheLoose is talking more in terms of temperature and weather conditions than in terms of “things to go wrong” like Hagrid’s.

For a UK ride, Hyperia does have quite a narrow window of operation if it can’t operate when vaguely cold or windy.

 

[DistortAMG]

what I would consider to be a narrow operating window would be Hagrid's (especially opening year) as there are timings required for each train to enter and exit precisely, and quite a bit could affect that and cause delays (especially due to how many launches there were). there was also some other principals such as BTM, if they don't sent a train every 40 secs, it will e-stop the ride if not fixed within 5 mins (or sometimes, it will do it anyway) it will require the whole ride to be shut down, tecs to arrive, evac people etc (known as a cascade failure)

You are not wrong in what you say here, and make many points of interesting discussion that need more talking...

But let's specifically define what we mean by operating window, relative to Hyperia, and specifically to the point we are discussing here, just so we are all on the same page.

Keeping it simple, Hyperia needs a very specific set of atmospheric conditions, eg, a specific narrow temperature range, and a narrow wind speed range to work properly, this is proved, tried and tested. The range of conditions the ride can operate in, is very slim compared to the much larger range of weather this country has. Resulting in the issues we see.

Hagrids does have a narrow window of operation, you are correct. But there is a huge difference between that window mainly being based on the fact said window, closes from the most common weather conditions, to the narrow window being caused because so many trains are being cycled through the ride every minute.

The two issues are so far apart. I think I need to send a post card.

You are basically comparing a ride that cant operate in the climate it was designed to operate in, vs a ride that cant operate because of the sheer technical and engineering masterpiece that it is. With all due respect, this is like trying to tell a flat earther the world is not flat. Maybe its my biased engineering mindset. But it makes no sense.

Enjoy, I wont say anything else

 

[flyingguitar]

You are not wrong in what you say here, and make many points of interesting discussion that need more talking...

But let's specifically define what we mean by operating window, relative to Hyperia, and specifically to the point we are discussing here, just so we are all on the same page.

Keeping it simple, Hyperia needs a very specific set of atmospheric conditions, eg, a specific narrow temperature range, and a narrow wind speed range to work properly, this is proved, tried and tested. The range of conditions the ride can operate in, is very slim compared to the much larger range of weather this country has. Resulting in the issues we see.

Hagrids does have a narrow window of operation, you are correct. But there is a huge difference between that window mainly being based on the fact said window, closes from the most common weather conditions, to the narrow window being caused because so many trains are being cycled through the ride every minute.

The two issues are so far apart. I think I need to send a post card.

You are basically comparing a ride that cant operate in the climate it was designed to operate in, vs a ride that cant operate because of the sheer technical and engineering masterpiece that it is. With all due respect, this is like trying to tell a flat earther the world is not flat. Maybe its my biased engineering mindset. But it makes no sense.

Enjoy, I wont say anything else

to me, an opperating window is a few things, wether included, it depends on opps (if slow opps causes the ride to stop / stack on block brakes), guest requirements (e.g space mountain weighing each train to prevent it from stalling)

from what I understand Hagrid's was partially caused by weather, as essentially the whole ride was timed with specific intervals but if some wind or a gust occurred it could throw it out of whack (in addition to inconsistent guest weights, etc).

but as for weather conditions, I wouldn't consider the window to be that narrow, it is open most of the time and as far as I can tell it isn't often down for wind, I am not sure how much of its down time is due to weather, in the past 7 days it has been up 95%, in all time is 60%, it did have the large down time (a couple months if I recall correctly) due to the lift hill problem, and has had some this year for another issue, so lets say that 10% of down time is weather related (IMO a bit high but don't have any data on it so yeah) but that is then only 4% of down time is caused by weather, so essentially 4% of the time it can't run which also matches the previous number (as it operates longer, the data should get much better, and we can make less assumptions but this is the best we can do unfortunately).

if it can't operate in 4/5% of weather conditions through out is opening time I wouldn't say that is very narrow, to me very narrow weather would be like 30% or so, where there is a real chance even on a good day that it would be unable to operate.

edit: the reason I think all time down time is so high (60%!) is because of that long break down, but also I think queue times considerers a ride down if it is closed when the park is open, but as hyperia opened a couple of months into the opening period of Thorpe I think that was also counted towards the down time

 

[Smiley]

Sometimes, even with a magical shovel, you have to stop digging It's not so much of having a marginal operating window.... It's a design failure - simple. Don't design a near stall if that can translate into a full stall/rollback/valley. If only there were an example of where this might occur and hot to mitigate it... Oh - STEALTH.

If I were a Merlin lawyer, I'd be demanding a full refund.