UK politics general discussion

[BigT]

Y

You're asking me to explain the current economic crisis to you even though almost all of us can't even unlock our phone screens without it being force fed to us? I'm confused, is this a genuine question?

I’ll be honest and say if it wasn’t for the news force feeding it down our necks a lot of people wouldn’t even notice.
Go to an airport early in the morning, they are rammed with holiday makers, go to a car dealership, waiting lists nearly a year, even most boat dealers are sold out of delivery slots until 2024.
(I use the boat analogy as it’s a market I know well)

I read an article last night that stated 75% of people agreed with everything in the mini budget except removing the cap of banker bonuses (doesn’t cost the treasury anything) and scrapping the 45p tax, so yes I’m interested in your take on it.

 

[rob666]

Source for that article please, must be in the extreme right press, as it is the first I have heard of 75% acceptance. Citation very much required.
Holidaymakers, car sales and boat sales all scream out that the rich get richer, but nothing for those in the middle or lower economic groups.
Most of the coverage I have read has been absolutely damning of recent political events and fiscal policy, from the IMF down to the local rag and local radio.
Very sorry you might have to wait a couple of years for a new boat though, that must be hitting you pretty hard.

 

[Alastair]

Loving the passion in the discussion here, just a quick pre-reminder to try to keep things calm and objective. If you cite stats that you've read, please try to link a source too to back it up. Thanks!

 

[BigT]

The article was on Sky news so I guess you could say right wing if comparing to BBC.
As is the way with these articles they fall off the news feed so I can’t find it now, I remember to take a screenshot next time..

I wouldn’t call most holiday makers rich as I wouldn’t call most people buying a car rich, boats yea I get that but it’s my hobby, incidentally a lot of boat owners aren’t rich either.
Of course some people will be affected by the interest rate correction but the vast majority of homeowners have fixed mortgage rates, the government has taken the sting out of energy costs and everyone who pays it has a cut in National Insurance coming soon.
Maybe things just aren’t as bad as the media is making out or maybe I’m just a glass half full person.

 

[Matt N]

According to Levelling Up Secretary Simon Clarke, the Truss government is considering ways to shrink the welfare state: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liz-truss-benefits-cuts-austerity-b2188617.html

Clarke said that ministers were looking at how to make sure that Britain’s “extremely large” state is aligned to a low tax economy, and he said that Western Europe is living in a “fools’ paradise” by thinking that you can have a large welfare state and high economic productivity.

It appears that public spending cuts could be on the way, by the sounds of things… there’s talk of a cut to benefits.

I’ll admit that I’m sceptical as to whether this is a good idea, seeing as discontent among public service employees already appears quite high, and resources within public services already appear somewhat stretched in many regards, but what do you guys think? I fear that a cut to benefits in particular could tip many struggling families over the edge and heighten wealth inequality…

I could be biased, though, as I’ll admit that I personally like having a larger welfare state and more government investment into public services… I apologise if this comes across overly left wing, but I like the idea of renationalising some currently privatised services, investing heavily into the NHS, schools and other public services, and having a large-scale benefits scheme to help the worst off in society.

 

[Benzin]

Might as well screw the poor rather than upset their rich mates. What with their flat screen tvs and smart phones (/s).

Benefits system is screwed enough as it is. Know that all too well.

Again, you cut tax and you need to find the money from somewhere. Usually that results in cutting the local services, which reduces their capabilities, resulting in excessive issues and continuing the poverty cycle onwards.

NHS wait times don't affect you if you can afford private. Or if you're lucky enough to work for a company that gives you decent benefits. Unfortunately those in the lower end jobs (I.e. retail and food) don't tend to be so lucky.

Who's calling holiday makers rich? The queues have been down to the cuts and strikes. Plus with cheap flights still in abundance?

Same for car owners, especially given there often being a necessity to have one in areas where public transport is terrible.

Will never stop weird assumptions that having a car and going on a holiday means you're not in a low income situation. Lots of ways to extend payment on these things these days.

 

[rob666]

New car purchases were the point being made, at the lowest level of sales since the nineties...people can't afford new cars like they used to.
Cars are often necessities, especially in rural areas, but new cars never are.
Only 10% of British people have been on holiday abroad in the last year, holidays and leisure are the first items to be cut hard because of increases in living costs.
Poor people can't afford holidays...simple fact, however you prioritise your income.
Extended payment methods of reasonable cost are not available to the poor either.

 

[Benzin]

New car purchases were the point being made, at the lowest level of sales since the nineties...people can't afford new cars like they used to.
Cars are often necessities, especially in rural areas, but new cars never are.
Only 10% of British people have been on holiday abroad in the last year, holidays and leisure are the first items to be cut hard because of increases in living costs.
Poor people can't afford holidays...simple fact, however you prioritise your income.
Extended payment methods of reasonable cost are not available to the poor either.

Brighthouse fortunately seem to not be a thing anymore at least.

Things like Klarna though and other buy now pay in installments though. Granted I usually pass the tests because I do solely earn enough to get by.

New cars probably aren't helped by the chip shortage. We cancelled the Motability as we needed a larger car urgently and the dealer couldn't give us an exact time frame. Absolutely killer.

 

[BigT]

New car purchases were the point being made, at the lowest level of sales since the nineties...people can't afford new cars like they used to.
Cars are often necessities, especially in rural areas, but new cars never are.
Only 10% of British people have been on holiday abroad in the last year, holidays and leisure are the first items to be cut hard because of increases in living costs.
Poor people can't afford holidays...simple fact, however you prioritise your income.
Extended payment methods of reasonable cost are not available to the poor either.

New car sales figures are down due to availability not want, all garages have healthy waiting lists however don’t let that get in the way of your narrative that the economy is going to hell in a handcart.
We will never agree on that as we have different social outlooks, I respect your position as you should mine.

 

[rob666]

It is the IMF that has given the negative narrative in the last few days, increasing inequality through poor fiscal policy when the economy is already under stress.
The new prime minister has messed up the economy, and risked all our pensions, in a misguided take from the poor to feed the rich, via massive unplanned, unfunded borrowing.
Truss has been repeatedly reported to be the Conservative Corbyn in today's media.
Conference should be fun.

 

[Matt.GC]

I thought I'd take a leaf out of Kwatengs book and try to secure myself a new mortgage. Maybe I'll ask for £500k, sounds like a nice number. I plan on not telling the mortgage company what I'll be using the money for, how I'll pay it back, what my income is, who I'm employed by and just tell them it's for "growth" so pinky promise they'll definitely get it back. No point in them scurtinising me with a silly credit check or anything like that.

I wonder what their reaction would be?

Kwateng and Truss have a massive advantage over me with their spending plans though in that we're all the guarantors, we've entrusted them with the keys to the vault where our money is kept and we can't say no to them for another 2 years, long after they've spent it.

This really is the first Tory Party conference I'm actually looking forward to. If no one else can get answers out of these callous morons then I'm at least hoping their own side will be able to squeeze something out of them. To settle the markets and give some hope to the millions of frightened people the Dynamic Due have held in utter contempt this week, if nothing else.

 

[Mikw]

According to Levelling Up Secretary Simon Clarke, the Truss government is considering ways to shrink the welfare state: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liz-truss-benefits-cuts-austerity-b2188617.html

Clarke said that ministers were looking at how to make sure that Britain’s “extremely large” state is aligned to a low tax economy, and he said that Western Europe is living in a “fools’ paradise” by thinking that you can have a large welfare state and high economic productivity.

It appears that public spending cuts could be on the way, by the sounds of things… there’s talk of a cut to benefits.

I’ll admit that I’m sceptical as to whether this is a good idea, seeing as discontent among public service employees already appears quite high, and resources within public services already appear somewhat stretched in many regards, but what do you guys think? I fear that a cut to benefits in particular could tip many struggling families over the edge and heighten wealth inequality…

I could be biased, though, as I’ll admit that I personally like having a larger welfare state and more government investment into public services… I apologise if this comes across overly left wing, but I like the idea of renationalising some currently privatised services, investing heavily into the NHS, schools and other public services, and having a large-scale benefits scheme to help the worst off in society.

Hey Matt, it's not "left wing" to want a healthy welfare state and decent public services - it's human!

 

[AstroDan]

So, I just inputted my current teacher pay point's actual value in September 2008 into the Bank of England's inflation calculator and then looked at what that should be in September 2022 vs. what I am being paid today.

The difference was £11,000.00.

And this is why unions are balloting for strike action, people. It's not militant. It's not extreme.

It's decency and it's about the value of work.

 

[Matt N]

Not to detract from your point at all, but I do have a minor question.

I’m not sure if you are able to shed any light upon this @AstroDan… but how come the lowest paid teachers seemingly get the lowest percentage real terms pay cut? Surely they’d get the highest one based on how a pay cut of a certain amount per member of staff would typically work, because lower earnings would make that pay cut more significant?

Or was the pay cut implemented like income tax, where the highest earners got the biggest percentage of their pay cut?

Or am I completely misinterpreting the graph?

It is rather surprising just how much money public sector workers have lost out on since 2010 when you put it like that, though…

 

[AstroDan]

The government have raised the starting salary for teachers slightly more over the past 12 years than everyone else - basically, the more experience you have, the less rise you have had. However, even new starters have seen a drop of around 10%, increasing to well over 15-20% for me.

 

[Matt N]

Ah right; I’m guessing M1 is a starting teacher and U3 is a top band teacher (aka headteacher or similar) on the graph, then?

 

[IanB]

Rather than cutting taxes to boost the economy, could the government of not increased teachers/nurses/key workers salary's by 10-15% to give them more spending power and give the economy a boost?

Does not having well paid, motivated teachers not improve the skills and ability of those being taught, and helping to provide the high skilled staff to give the economy a boost?

There is a balance to be had, like with everything, but if there is money for the tax cuts we have seen, there is money for a different approach, which benefits more people and provides a better long term foundation for a high skills, high wage society.

 

[pluk]

Well, this is a fun depressing game. Just did the same for my current paypoint also vs 2008 (the year I joined up) and it's a few quid shy of £10,000 under where it should be. And the pensions have been illegally decimated in that time.

If we could strike I'm pretty sure we would have done by now.

 

[AstroDan]

Ah right; I’m guessing M1 is a starting teacher and U3 is a top band teacher (aka headteacher or similar) on the graph, then?

M1 is a starting salary (c£26k), rising to M6 ( c£34k) as your most experienced 'standard' teacher.
U1 to U3 is the upper pay scales - still for regular classroom teachers but these teachers will have taken on wider responsibilities, such as subject leadership.

Leadership is separate - but the rises are even less than M & U.

 

[Matt.GC]

So you have to go to University, get qualified, then do loads of training, then have the responsibility of looking after, nurturing and developing the most precious resource we have (children) and get the "privilege" of earning a meager £26k - £34k per year? Neither of which is a salary that you can get a decent 10% deposit mortgage on in most parts of the country (that are worth living in anyway).

I looked up teacher wages when I was waiting to see the last teacher at parents evening at my son's secondary school back in July. As someone who is still scared of schools (I hate the places) I was intrigued as to why these dedicated and intelligent people were so invested in my intelligent son and why he himself loves going to a place everyday that I personally hated so much back in the 90's.

I still don't know the answer. Because they certainly don't do this much for the 3 most important people in my life for the money.