UK politics general discussion

[JAperson]

So I admit I was partially wrong however it still seems fairly minimal with dates missed out for police investigation which I don't understand. Why do you need to hide the info just because the police are investigating it?
The commons statement will be the same as always from Boris. He might give a bit of an apology and then say the matter is now closed.

 

[WillPS]

What reason does the police have to draw out the investigation beyond the absolute minimum length, out of interest? The government has nothing to do with it, so there’s no political bias influencing it.

The report is being described as “preliminary” and as an “interim” report, so I think the intent is that we will get the full thing eventually.

Who decides what funding the police get?

 

[WillPS]

Why do you need to hide the info just because the police are investigating it?

The police have a right to prevent disclosure of evidence during the course of their investigations. This means that they have the advantage of knowing (or not knowing) facts which might undermine or corroborate a suspect or witness version of events, but critically the suspect or witness does not know everything the Police will know.

 

[Matt N]

Interestingly, Boris is apparently addressing all Tory MPs separately alongside the Commons statement… could a resignation or something equally serious be coming?

 

[geo4chg]

Interestingly, Boris is apparently addressing all Tory MPs separately alongside the Commons statement… could a resignation or something equally serious be coming?

More likely just to sure up his support, make sure there is no leadership contest, answer any problems backbenchers may have with how things are run inside No 10.

 

[JAperson]

Boris may well just, wrongly, survive this but one more big blunder and he'll be gone. I think the problem the backbenchers have got is that there isn't anyone who could get them such a big majority again. Boris won all those red wall seats for the Tories and the MP's in them seats don't want to risk there position. I actually think them voting Boris out would now do them good and not bad but who knows.

 

[BarryZola]

Gotta be honest, Starmer went in pretty hard there.

 

[WillPS]

Interestingly, Boris is apparently addressing all Tory MPs separately alongside the Commons statement… could a resignation or something equally serious be coming?

One doesn't arrange a speech to the commons then a later speech to their entire party to announce their resignation.

It's more likely to pre-empt a confidence vote. A pre-hustings if you will.

 

[Matt N]

My, the Commons debate was tense this evening… I watched the entire thing, and some very interesting stuff happened. Here’s a basic summary, for those that weren’t watching.

In terms of what Boris said, it was something along the lines of:

• He is sorry for people’s pain and anguish, and understands people’s anger.
• He has agreed to make a new “Office for the Prime Minister” to better manage goings on within Number 10 itself.
• He encouraged MPs to wait for the police inquiry to conclude before making a judgement.
• He refused to make any comment on his involvement within individual parties.
• He said that he wants to leave the parties behind and focus on what the voters really care about.

In terms of notable quotes from other MPs and Boris’ response to them:

• Keir Starmer did a very long speech about how Boris Johnson “is a man without shame”, and called for him to resign. Boris responded by dismissing Starmer’s criticisms as “unsubstantiated nonsense”, citing the government’s greatest achievements and telling Keir Starmer off for his desire to talk about an ongoing police investigation, as well as his failure to prosecute Jimmy Savile when he was head of the CPS.
• Ian Blackford repeatedly accused Boris Johnson of lying to Parliament. When he refused to back down on this, he was eventually evicted from the Commons.
• Ed Davey called Boris Johnson “the worst Prime Minister Britain has ever had”, and also asked whether Boris Johnson’s government had bought any benefit whatsoever to the British public’s lives, to which Boris Johnson responded with a list of the government’s greatest achievements.
• Theresa May launched a surprisingly critical attack on Boris Johnson where she said that “[he] must have either not read or not understood the rules, or he didn’t think they applied to No 10. Which was it?”. This surprised me, as I expected Theresa May to have Boris’ back, being a fellow Conservative.
• Numerous people asked Boris about the events of 13th November 2020, but he refused to comment, telling them to wait for the police investigation.

I think it’s great that Boris is agreeing to resolve things within Number 10, personally, but I wonder if the nation will think it’s enough, as people seem pretty angry. What do you guys think?

 

[JAperson]

My, the Commons debate was tense this evening… I watched the entire thing, and some very interesting stuff happened. Here’s a basic summary, for those that weren’t watching.

In terms of what Boris said, it was something along the lines of:

• He is sorry for people’s pain and anguish, and understands people’s anger.
• He has agreed to make a new “Office for the Prime Minister” to better manage goings on within Number 10 itself.
• He encouraged MPs to wait for the police inquiry to conclude before making a judgement.
• He refused to make any comment on his involvement within individual parties.
• He said that he wants to leave the parties behind and focus on what the voters really care about.

In terms of notable quotes from other MPs and Boris’ response to them:

• Keir Starmer did a very long speech about how Boris Johnson “is a man without shame”, and called for him to resign. Boris responded by dismissing Starmer’s criticisms as “unsubstantiated nonsense”, citing the government’s greatest achievements and telling Keir Starmer off for his desire to talk about an ongoing police investigation, as well as his failure to prosecute Jimmy Savile when he was head of the CPS.
• Ian Blackford repeatedly accused Boris Johnson of lying to Parliament. When he refused to back down on this, he was eventually evicted from the Commons.
• Ed Davey called Boris Johnson “the worst Prime Minister Britain has ever had”, and also asked whether Boris Johnson’s government had bought any benefit whatsoever to the British public’s lives, to which Boris Johnson responded with a list of the government’s greatest achievements.
• Theresa May launched a surprisingly critical attack on Boris Johnson where she said that “[he] must have either not read or not understood the rules, or he didn’t think they applied to No 10. Which was it?”. This surprised me, as I expected Theresa May to have Boris’ back, being a fellow Conservative.
• Numerous people asked Boris about the events of 13th November 2020, but he refused to comment, telling them to wait for the police investigation.

I think it’s great that Boris is agreeing to resolve things within Number 10, personally, but I wonder if the nation will think it’s enough, as people seem pretty angry. What do you guys think?

Petition to have @Matt N hosting a parliament channel. A Matt N commentary with optimism might give us some hope when watching these useless people doing stupid things.

 

[rob666]

So Boris is a racist liar and cheat, has been our most divisive leader since Thatcher, and is a fine example of how rotten the Eton old boys network has become in dominating the corridors of power.
But things are great because Boris has decided to resolve things within number ten???????????
Who exactly put us in the "situation" that needs resolving I wonder?
I think our Matt is being naively overoptimistic.
Again.

 

[Rob]

Theresa May's question was brilliantly put and rather scathing.

 

[rob666]

Yesterday in parliament, the one MP caught telling the truth was thrown out for his honesty.
Our great democratic government is a beacon to the world.

 

[Alsty]

Sixteen known breaches of regulations, twelve being investigated by the police, three the Prime Minister was at, one in the Prime Minister's flat, the Gray report says there was a "failure of leadership" and yet Johnson lives to fight another day...

He won't quit and his party just rallies around him in complicity. I don't see any reason to be optimistic.

 

[Benzin]

Sixteen known breaches of regulations, twelve being investigated by the police, three the Prime Minister was at, one in the Prime Minister's flat, the Gray report says there was a "failure of leadership" and yet Johnson lives to fight another day...

He won't quit and his party just rallies around him in complicity. I don't see any reason to be optimistic.

Well according to Nadine "the only people criticising Boris never liked him".

These people have no interest in being a voice for their people. Just money and power. Even if Boris resigns he'll have years on the publicity trail earning more money than most of us will in our lifetimes.

Yet people still perform a gold medal in mental gymnastics to defend him. Its a complete nonsense.

 

[Matt N]

Out of interest, can Boris be removed without a Tory vote of no confidence in him or a vote of no confidence in the government? If he is ultimately found to have broken ministerial code or the law, do the police have powers to forcibly remove him, or does he just stay as long as the Conservatives still like him?

I know that Boris himself has little desire to go and privately believes that he did nothing wrong (he has privately said to Tory MPs that he is “bravely taking the blame for others”); he wants to stay in power longer than Margaret Thatcher, so I think he’s very unlikely to go unless something very serious happens or he’s forced out for whatever reason.

But things are great because Boris has decided to resolve things within number ten???????????

I say this because I believe that it’s a very positive step, personally.

When Boris was presented with feedback, he took it on board and has agreed to drastically change procedure in Number 10 in spite of his own personal beliefs, which is no small thing to do. For that, I do applaud him; he’s agreed to make changes based on the Gray report, which should hopefully improve the way in which Downing Street is run.

And I don’t say that as a hardcore Tory supporter or anything; if an election was called, I’d almost definitely vote Labour. I do genuinely think that Boris announcing change is a good step on his part that should hopefully have a really positive impact.

 

[WillPS]

Sixteen known breaches of regulations, twelve being investigated by the police, three the Prime Minister was at, one in the Prime Minister's flat, the Gray report says there was a "failure of leadership" and yet Johnson lives to fight another day...

He won't quit and his party just rallies around him in complicity. I don't see any reason to be optimistic.

If you want a party other than the Conservatives to win the next general election your best chance is to have Boris Johnson leading the Conservatives at the next general election.

In the meantime any rebellion within the Conservative party will vastly reduce their ability to pass motions without opposition assistance.

Play the long game.

 

[Rojo]

Yesterday in parliament, the one MP caught telling the truth was thrown out for his honesty.
Our great democratic government is a beacon to the world.

I don't usually listen all that much to Ian Blackford but his speech was great. A part from the bit where he went all Father Ted on BoJo.

 

[jon81uk]

Well according to Nadine "the only people criticising Boris never liked him".

These people have no interest in being a voice for their people. Just money and power. Even if Boris resigns he'll have years on the publicity trail earning more money than most of us will in our lifetimes.

Yet people still perform a gold medal in mental gymnastics to defend him. Its a complete nonsense.

It probably won't do a lot, but I would suggest those who have a Tory MP write to them expressing that their MP should be representing their constitiuants and as one of them you find the actions of the Prime Minister to be unreasonable and you ask for them to make a vote of no confidence. Or something.
Can't do any harm to email your MP. Don't forget to put your full postal address in the email or they will ignore it.

 

[Craig]

Out of interest, can Boris be removed without a Tory vote of no confidence in him or a vote of no confidence in the government? If he is ultimately found to have broken ministerial code or the law, do the police have powers to forcibly remove him, or does he just stay as long as the Conservatives still like him?

Nope, the police can't forcibly remove him. The Queen could in theory get rid of him but that would kick off an unprecedented constitutional crisis, so wouldn't happen.

On the subject of the Ministerial Code, if he is seen to have broken the law or knowingly misled, he's broken the Ministerial Code:

The Ministerial Code should be read against the background of the overarching duty on Ministers to comply with the law and to protect the integrity of public life

Ministers who knowingly mislead Parliament will be expected to offer their resignation to the Prime Minister

It's worth noting as mentioned above, the Ministerial Code is overseen by the Prime Minister, so he is essentially the judge of his own actions. The whole thing was written with the assumption that whoever was Prime Minister would have the moral authority to never be in that position themselves.

I say this because I believe that it’s a very positive step, personally.

When Boris was presented with feedback, he took it on board and has agreed to drastically change procedure in Number 10 in spite of his own personal beliefs, which is no small thing to do. For that, I do applaud him; he’s agreed to make changes based on the Gray report, which should hopefully improve the way in which Downing Street is run.

Has he took it on board though? All I see is words to try and appease the Conservative Party. Even his apology yesterday referred to "we". There's zero personal responsibility there, it's always deflection as though he's surprised that it's happened.

No.10 Downing Street is the heart of government, they are not kids in school. It should not need an "Office for the Prime Minister" to manage adults working in a professional environment. No.10 is already officially known as "The Prime Minister's Office", so we would now have an "Office for the Prime Minister of the Prime Minister's Office"?! I don't need an office to manage my office, a competent leadership team has got the right people in place to do that already. If Boris Johnson took some personal responsibility and had done that at No.10 in the first place, we wouldn't be in the position that meaningless additional departments were having to be created purely to try and appease his own party.

If you want a party other than the Conservatives to win the next general election your best chance is to have Boris Johnson leading the Conservatives at the next general election.

Play the long game.

On the face of it, I would agree with you. But, this is now going far beyond party politics and into the way the United Kingdom is run as a whole. We currently have a government who appear to be more than happy to have even the most basic standards of public life thrown out the window.

Yes, it's easy to say "play the long game" and we'll be fine at the next election. But I would also say consider the even longer game. If we allow the government of today to set a precedent that this sort of behaviour can go without punishment, then where does it end? How do we guarantee that come the next election that someone else comes into power and doesn't do the same thing, or worse? We are actively demonstrating that the current checks and balances we have in place for public servants can be ignored simply by saying "sorry"...repeatedly. That should never be the case, when previous governments have seen such actions to be nothing less than a resigning matter.

The more the consequences for failing to uphold these standards are watered down or outright ignored, the more dangerous this could become. The UK has sat back on the view that it's the "Mother of Parliament" for a long time, and watched as other countries descend toward becoming more autocratic with the view that "it could never happen here". We're in danger of sleepwalking into that exact situation in the UK, which may sound overdramatic to some, but it's a very slippery slope!