UK politics general discussion

[BigT]

The lack of new policy was a bit weird, it’s almost like she wasn’t expecting to win the leadership contest.
Look she had a torrid first two weeks in the job that wasn’t her fault, I gave her the benefit of the doubt then but now she is starting to come across as completely out of her depth.
I only heard it on the radio but it sounded like a six form debating chamber speech.

 

[AstroDan]

We have seen a shift in the Tory party over the years. What were 'fringe' ideas and discussions, have been ushered into mainstream Tory party politics: Brexit has really forced it into the mainstream. A culture of low-level attack of Europe - making out that Europe is, to a degree, a problem to us here in Britain. One we can't work with and one we have to disagree with at every possible moment because to do otherwise is 'against Brexit'. Secondly, the movement on refugees and so on. It gets some of the hard right gammon clapping - but when you have a black guy as chancellor and a Home Secretary of Indian ethnicity - both of which are great things to see in modern Britain - it makes it even worse to see them backing this ideology.

There was some anti Europe and anti immigration rhetoric in her speech today - disgusting.

 

[Alsty]

The European Research Group (ERG) within the Conservative party seem to be at the reins at the moment and I think that's where a lot of these populist ideas are coming from. I don't think they represent mainstream Conservative views. I'd even say I don't think the Conservative party itself was anti-EU either, it was just this force within the party that wanted to make it into a big deal. This infighting is what led to the referendum to try and finally put the issue to bed. When Leave won the vote it just empowered the ERG and now they're steering the party under the pretense of "it's what people voted for" and there's little balance left in the party to counter it. Indeed Boris Johnson got rid a lot of dissenting voices in 2019 which means the party finds itself in an echo chamber.

Ultimately I don't think the ERG represent what most people want, and the Conservative party will need to steer a less populist agenda if they wish to keep power at the next election. Maybe they will realise although I don't hold out any hope until they lose at least one General Election.

 

[Craig]

It's just an incredibly lazy argument, and I agree it's something that just seemed to be something to please a minority rather than the public at large. They've literally gone down the road of "it worked before, so it'll work again" in trying to disrupt things and pull people to their line of thinking. The problem though, is that the public's perceptions of the most important issues affecting the country has changed substantially since the Brexit vote. The concern over immigration has plummeted after people stopped being absolutely hammered with rhetoric from the likes of UKIP and Vote Leave. Concern over leaving the EU has settled too.

Overwhelmingly, people are now incredibly concerned about the economy - only this time there's not the high concern over immigration which was sued to stir things up last time. Even with some fairly extensive news coverage in recent months, immigration is still only the most important concern for 21% of the country.


Source: YouGov

Saying that Labour would be the "status quo" versus the Tories is a hard sell to the general public these days. Previously they were just about getting away with blaming the previous labour government and/or their opposition to the eventual EU withdrawal agreement. A leader with the personality of Johnson helped sell it before the scandals helped finish him off. Now though, those scandals coupled with the actual physical issues that've been caused by the decisions of Tory governments are now having a serious impact on people's day to day lives.

There's zero appetite for the sort of rhetoric that's being pedalled at the moment. Right now no one cares about "woke lefty lawyers" stopping flights to Rwanda, no one cares about the European Court of Human Rights "interfering" and no one cares about "cutting EU red tape" when many even in government couldn't even pinpoint a single piece of said tape that's having a major impact on them at present.

Perhaps said rhetoric might work at another time, but right now when people are concerned about how they're going to be able to stay in their home as their fixed term comes to and end and their energy bills jump - not so much. They want reassurance and actual answers to the very real problems they're facing.

Under the Tories we've seen a complete watering down of government oversight in recent years. Ministers skipping committees, refusing to publish independent advice, announcing things away from the Commons and rushing through legislation without proper time for scrutiny. Of course all of this this culminated in their decision to skip OBR forecasts and chuck out their tax cuts, resulting in a massive pension crisis and the spike in interest rates which has severely disrupted the housing market. "A little turbulence" they called it, but for many of the general public it's been completely devastating.

If that is their idea of moving away from the status quo, is that really what we want right now? Does such an approach really get things done or does it just create further problems down the line? Is it not better to have experts to properly scrutinise these decisions, who would be in a much better position to calm what are already jittery markets? Perhaps after years of the populist gung-ho approach we need someone who can be methodical, with an organised approach who can bridge the gap between both sides rather than further widening it?

I completely agree with @Alsty that there are many in government who are completely out of touch with the public's concerns at present. Take Suella Braverman at a fringe event yesterday:

“I would love to have a front page of The Telegraph with a plane taking off to Rwanda, that’s my dream, it’s my obsession,”

Source: Independent

Is that really an achievement for someone holding a Great Office of State? To me it's more of a ridiculous obsession that's the equivalent of winning a petty argument. Making a real difference to crime statistics, reducing reoffending, that sort of stuff is a real achievement - not a pretty much empty plane taking off which has cost the taxpayer a fortune for very little actual impact to people's lives.

Or then there's Jake Berry, who just suggests everyone who's struggling just go out and get a better job. A completely pointless argument, when many of those lower paid jobs are essential to a functioning country.

I can honestly see the party splitting at this point, I don't see how the sensible members in the party can even remotely align their views to some of the stuff being said lately.

 

[Jonathan]

Regarding Suella Braverman’s remarks yesterday, I found them to be completely callous and disgusting. How on earth is that an acceptable thing for anyone to say, let alone a high-profile politician?

 

[tayspru]

The only thing I’m truly surprised about from this week, is that people seem to be genuinely surprised that Truss had nothing of substance to say. People convictions really make them blind to what’s in front of them. But hey ho at least she isn’t Corbyn, right ?

 

[Craig]

The only thing I’m truly surprised about from this week, is that people seem to be genuinely surprised that Truss had nothing of substance to say. People convictions really make them blind to what’s in front of them. But hey ho at least she isn’t Corbyn, right ?

Have people been genuinely surprised? From what I've seen the reaction to her has been mainly negative, and the only surprise was that she didn't manage to completely crash the markets (again).

Interesting you mentioned Corbyn, as I thought he was also out of his depth as a party leader and I say that as a Labour supporter. A great activist, but not suited to being a party leader. There were too many left wing policies at once, and it ultimately spooked a hell of a lot of voters - even forgetting the bad press about Corbyn himself. It's impossible to go from one side of the political spectrum to the other in one election. You've got to appeal to the many, not the few (badum tsssh) so policies have to be eased in progressively. Just look at where the Tories are from the Cameron years in comparison to now...

 

[Matt N]

The interesting thing is; I’m not sure that Corbyn’s policies in themselves were the cause of his downfall.

I actually remember him being pretty popular in 2017 (if I’m remembering correctly, wasn’t his actual vote share nearly as high as Theresa May’s?), and I think that his lack of clear stance on Brexit (I personally thought Labour’s policy was a good compromise, but it was ultimately harder to explain to the electorate than a simple “Remain” or “Leave”), as well as the undeniably strong electoral force that was Boris Johnson, caused him to suffer in 2019 rather than his policies alone.

I think that it could also be argued that Corbyn’s controversial past worked against him to an extent. I remember lots of negative PR from the opposing side talking about how he’s wanted to abolish NATO, abolish the army etc in the past, and I remember this being a significant reason why many wouldn’t vote for him.

I don’t know if any of you would agree, but I actually reckon that Corbyn’s 2019 manifesto could have done quite well in an election had it been fronted by a different party leader who had a less chequered past and took a more decisive stance on certain things (e.g. Brexit). If I’m remembering correctly, much of his actual manifesto wasn’t too far left, and the comments about “Communism” were mainly based on things he’s said and done in the past rather than the policies presented.

 

[Benzin]

Regarding Suella Braverman’s remarks yesterday, I found them to be completely callous and disgusting. How on earth is that an acceptable thing for anyone to say, let alone a high-profile politician?

Unfortunately there are no repercussions for those in power (or anyone) to say these things. As there's this weird and wrong rhetoric of "My FrEeDoM oF sPeEcH!" and crying about being "cancelled" when people call them out for being an awful human being.

 

[Alsty]

On a slightly more frivolous note, do you think anybody in Truss's team has actually listened to the lyrics of M People - Moving on Up?

 

[Matt N]

On a slightly more frivolous note, do you think anybody in Truss's team has actually listened to the lyrics of M People - Moving on Up?

Funnily enough, many Labour MPs picked up on this already and pointed out some of the lyrics about “packing your bags” and “moving on out” that didn’t play when Truss walked on stage…

 

[Craig]

The interesting thing is; I’m not sure that Corbyn’s policies in themselves were the cause of his downfall.

I actually remember him being pretty popular in 2017 (if I’m remembering correctly, wasn’t his actual vote share nearly as high as Theresa May’s?), and I think that his lack of clear stance on Brexit (I personally thought Labour’s policy was a good compromise, but it was ultimately harder to explain to the electorate than a simple “Remain” or “Leave”), as well as the undeniably strong electoral force that was Boris Johnson, caused him to suffer in 2019 rather than his policies alone.

I think that it could also be argued that Corbyn’s controversial past worked against him to an extent. I remember lots of negative PR from the opposing side talking about how he’s wanted to abolish NATO, abolish the army etc in the past, and I remember this being a significant reason why many wouldn’t vote for him.

I don’t know if any of you would agree, but I actually reckon that Corbyn’s 2019 manifesto could have done quite well in an election had it been fronted by a different party leader who had a less chequered past and took a more decisive stance on certain things (e.g. Brexit). If I’m remembering correctly, much of his actual manifesto wasn’t too far left, and the comments about “Communism” were mainly based on things he’s said and done in the past rather than the policies presented.

Of course the manifesto alone wasn't the cause of his downfall, but it was the final nail in the coffin as it was absolute gold for the opposition. Corbyn was popular as a figure of change, but sadly an activist doesn't necessarily translate well into a statesman-like figure needed as PM. Past controversies as you mentioned (some of which admittedly were just slurs against him) worked in the opposition's favour, but the problem was I never really remember him vigorously deny or defend much of the things said against him either. The public also saw a party at outright war, something the tories are experiencing now, and a warring party is not an appetising prospect for any voter.

I'm still not so sure that manifesto could be sold under any party leader though - softly softly is the approach that was needed. Have one or two headline policies, prove they work and develop others as time goes on. Forecasts and costings can only go so far, you've got the demonstrate to the wider public that you can be trusted before you can go all out.

 

[GaryH]

Anyone else find Truss as difficult to listen to as the woman of the Vodafone adverts? I just have to switch off everytime they come on

 

[D4n]

The thing is you can’t just look at the salary when judging a career, you have to look at the whole package in the round, Teachers enjoy extended holidays and a very good pension amongst other benefits like school hours generally fit around family life.
Yes I know some work long hours but there aren’t many still in the actual school at 17:00.

Not many in the school at 5pm hahahahahaha.

I work 7:15 to 6:30 in the school building, plus additional in evenings and at weekends when necessary. I'm far from alone.

 

[AstroDan]

Didn't realise I was part of the Anti-Growth Coalition until today, but if it's ******* off Liz Truss then I am all for it.

 

[Alsty]

You can buy your mug here

 

[BigT]

Not many in the school at 5pm hahahahahaha.

I work 7:15 to 6:30 in the school building, plus additional in evenings and at weekends when necessary. I'm far from alone.

The empty school car parks after 17:00 tell a different story, I’m sure there are some that are there later but majority seem to take the “marking” home.
As for weekends I have never seen a school around me open at weekends except my daughter’s school which is private, they have normal lessons most Saturday’s.
Anyway I think we are going off subject now.

 

[AstroDan]

The empty school car parks after 17:00 tell a different story, I’m sure there are some that are there later but majority seem to take the “marking” home.
As for weekends I have never seen a school around me open at weekends except my daughter’s school which is private, they have normal lessons most Saturday’s.
Anyway I think we are going off subject now.

Yeah - pay them less, make them work real hours. The hour long socials at lunchtime and teachers out the gate at 4pm needs to stop.

Teachers don't know how easy they've got it.

9-3.30 for 39 weeks a year. What a hoot.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

 

[Benzin]

Don't forget the doss ups that are so called "teacher training days"!

Teachers, no matter the age group, do far more work than is perceived. Weekends are often filled with marking or lesson planning. Holidays usually entail the last part with similar.

It's a weird bone to pick on. Much like how train drivers get paid loads for their work. But gotta punch down I guess.

 

[Matt.GC]

The lack of new policy was a bit weird, it’s almost like she wasn’t expecting to win the leadership contest.
Look she had a torrid first two weeks in the job that wasn’t her fault, I gave her the benefit of the doubt then but now she is starting to come across as completely out of her depth.
I only heard it on the radio but it sounded like a six form debating chamber speech.

We are in agreement here. This is exactly the point I was making when you went on the "politics of envy" rant. The events of the last 2 weeks, up to and including this conference, are raising serious concerns about the competence of the top 2.

If we forget political views for a moment, the fortnight we've had seems to scream out that she really is not fit to hold her position. She seems wedded to a certain ideology, fine if that's her genuine belief, but it's almost as if she's cocooned into it. This speech did little to calm those concerns. It was almost as if she was still campaigning for the leadership. Loads of sound bites that you'd expect a Tory to make to get a room full of them frothing at the mouth, but seemed out of tune with everything that appears to be going on around her.

If we think about Thatcher with the poll tax, Blair invading Iraq and Cameron over the EU referendum, these were all massive blunders of incompetence from PM's who had a few years experience behind them and had grown confident. You can imagine MP's cabinet ministers and some advisors throwing newspaper headlines on their desks lobbying hard for them to reconsider.

But in just one month, Truss already seems like she's somewhere else. Tonnes of MP's briefing against her, some of them cabinet ministers! She had a lot riding on this speech, but didn't seem to do much other just repeat what she's been saying all summer in the most flat and boring way. And whoever made the M People decision should be sacked.

Sixth Form debating chamber speech indeed.