UK Politics General Discussion

[Slugjc]

Well I was considering voting reform as I am not a fan of any of the main 3 parties, but I will now probably vote green.

The Putin comments from Farage did it for me. Even Putin himself doesn't claim he invaded Ukraine because of NATO aggression. His excuse was to get rid of Ukrainian Nazis, but we all know the real reason is because he wants the soviet union back.

As for far right candidates , that is a real problem for the party, and with reform being the furthest right of the main stream parties it will inevitably attract some from the far right. So for that reason and the Putin comments , they wont be getting my vote.

Farage loves to distance himself from those, like In that clip, with the "those views are not in line with mine." He must know what he does and says attracts them. He's not that daft.

Listening to a book on Hitler these last few weeks. It's brought up time and again that Hitler would never say publicly his more extreme views. He would allow others in the party to do it for him. He allowed Goebbels to publicly slate Jews and start attacks on businesses etc.(Like crystal nacht) But would never do it himself. Farage plays that same tactic.

 

[shakey]

Farage loves to distance himself from those, like In that clip, with the "those views are not in line with mine." He must know what he does and says attracts them. He's not that daft.

Listening to a book on Hitler these last few weeks. It's brought up time and again that Hitler would never say publicly his more extreme views. He would allow others in the party to do it for him. He allowed Goebbels to publicly slate Jews and start attacks on businesses etc.(Like crystal nacht) But would never do it himself. Farage plays that same tactic.

You can't compare him to Hitler !!

We only have his public comments to go on. So I am happy to take that at face value until there is evidence to the contrary. As far as I am aware Farage has not made any racist comments but please correct me if I am wrong.

But as I have said before , I don't agree with everything he says, it troubles me that he is a trump supporter and some of his views I definitely do not agree with.

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[tayspru]

You can't compare him to Hitler !!

We only have his public comments to go on. So I am happy to take that at face value until there is evidence to the contrary. As far as I am aware Farage has not made any racist comments but please correct me if I am wrong.

But as I have said before , I don't agree with everything he says, it troubles me that he is a trump supporter and some of his views I definitely do not agree with.

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Nigel Farage is a racist through and through. Whole publicly campaigning he avoids using slurs (so far) but that doesn’t me he isn’t racist, in fact, Farage has a long history of racism—it defines his politics.

In 2008, in an interview with a magazine, Farage named Enoch Powell, whose 1969 “Rivers of Blood” speech has been a touchstone for racists and fascists ever since, as his political hero.

He said, “Whilst Enoch Powell’s language may seem out-of-date now, the principles remain good and true. I would never say that Powell was racist in any way at all.” In 2014 at the Ukip conference, he said that “parts of Britain are now unrecognisable and look like a foreign land” because of migration and that “having whole areas taken over is unacceptable”.

Farage said on LBC Radio in 2014, “Any normal and fair-minded person would have a perfect right to be concerned if a group of Romanian people suddenly moved in next door.” When asked in a 2014 interview with Newsweek Europe who he thought should be allowed to come to Britain, he said, “People who do not have HIV to be frank. That’s a good start. And people with a skill.”

During the 2015 general election, Farage suggested Muslims in Britain “lack British values” and described them as wanting to form “a fifth column and kill us”, and trying to “change who we are and what we are”.

During the Brexit referendum campaign, Farage focused almost exclusively on demonising migrants. He fought relentlessly to link migrants and Muslims to violence and social decline. He unveiled a poster with the slogan “Breaking Point” along with a photo of Syrian refugees. It was the same design as propaganda used by the Nazis.

In 2020, in response to Black Lives Matter protests in London, Farage said, “A new form of the Taliban was born in the UK today. Unless we get moral leadership quickly our cities won’t be worth living in.” And this month he defended his claim that Muslims “do not share British values”, giving Oldham as an example. “I could take you to the streets of Oldham where no one speaks English,” he said.

 

[shakey]

Nigel Farage is a racist through and through. Whole publicly campaigning he avoids using slurs (so far) but that doesn’t me he isn’t racist, in fact, Farage has a long history of racism—it defines his politics.

In 2008, in an interview with a magazine, Farage named Enoch Powell, whose 1969 “Rivers of Blood” speech has been a touchstone for racists and fascists ever since, as his political hero.

He said, “Whilst Enoch Powell’s language may seem out-of-date now, the principles remain good and true. I would never say that Powell was racist in any way at all.” In 2014 at the Ukip conference, he said that “parts of Britain are now unrecognisable and look like a foreign land” because of migration and that “having whole areas taken over is unacceptable”.

Farage said on LBC Radio in 2014, “Any normal and fair-minded person would have a perfect right to be concerned if a group of Romanian people suddenly moved in next door.” When asked in a 2014 interview with Newsweek Europe who he thought should be allowed to come to Britain, he said, “People who do not have HIV to be frank. That’s a good start. And people with a skill.”

During the 2015 general election, Farage suggested Muslims in Britain “lack British values” and described them as wanting to form “a fifth column and kill us”, and trying to “change who we are and what we are”.

During the Brexit referendum campaign, Farage focused almost exclusively on demonising migrants. He fought relentlessly to link migrants and Muslims to violence and social decline. He unveiled a poster with the slogan “Breaking Point” along with a photo of Syrian refugees. It was the same design as propaganda used by the Nazis.

In 2020, in response to Black Lives Matter protests in London, Farage said, “A new form of the Taliban was born in the UK today. Unless we get moral leadership quickly our cities won’t be worth living in.” And this month he defended his claim that Muslims “do not share British values”, giving Oldham as an example. “I could take you to the streets of Oldham where no one speaks English,” he said.

Some muslims in Britain do lack British values. Absolutely no doubt about that at all.

I heard his Oldham comments and while I don't know Oldham, I am well aware of areas not far from me where nobody speaks English.

I have no issue at all with the idea of net zero migration, although it will never happen.

 

[Slugjc]

You can't compare him to Hitler !!

We only have his public comments to go on. So I am happy to take that at face value until there is evidence to the contrary. As far as I am aware Farage has not made any racist comments but please correct me if I am wrong.

But as I have said before , I don't agree with everything he says, it troubles me that he is a trump supporter and some of his views I definitely do not agree with.

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I wasn't comparing him to Hitler.

I was comparing one small aspect to similarities of how the propergander surrounding both is similar. You only have to look at language used by supporters to see this kind of similarity.

It's also startling that the former leader of reform, would be less tolerant to this behaviour than farage is. Reported 110 people prospective MPs and staff for reform have been dismissed for this behaviour under twice. None under farage.

 

[Mick]

Big Nige found himself facing the wrath of the Loose Women today. Apparantly it’s acceptable to be homophobic because the individuals had drunk a bit. Oh and that racist bloke was a stitch up by channel four.

One thing Farage can never do is accept responsibility.

 

[shakey]

Big Nige found himself facing the wrath of the Loose Women today. Apparantly it’s acceptable to be homophobic because the individuals had drunk a bit. Oh and that racist bloke was a stitch up by channel four.

One thing Farage can never do is accept responsibility.

Just watched it. He didn't handle it well but to be fair he said the individuals were drunk and wrong .

More importantly, what the hell has happened to Gloria Hunniford !!!

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[Benzin]

Apparently it was "chaps down the pub talk".

And the main guy who's been thrown under the bus by Farage has played the "I've had X girlfriends and friends" card too.

Racists always hate being caught out.

 

[tayspru]

Apparently it was "chaps down the pub talk".

And the main guy who's been thrown under the bus by Farage has played the "I've had X girlfriends and friends" card too.

Racists always hate being caught out.

And their supporters love to ignore any evidence that shows them up as the racists they are, only replying to the parts they think they can refute and ignoring the rest

 

[Matt N]

The comments leaked were not good at all, and I’ll admit to being quite shocked that individuals associated with a mainstream political party in 2024 are allowed to say those sorts of things. Sometimes, offensive comments could be put down to ignorance rather than intended malice, but I think that with many of these, particularly the “just f***ing shoot them” one with regard to illegal immigrants, there’s little way that the intent could be anything other than malicious.

I think Reform UK evidently has an issue with attracting candidates who espouse this sort of rhetoric given the amount of stories we’re hearing about individuals associated with them, and this does need sorting.

However, I’m marginally uncomfortable with the way that everyone who supports Reform is often painted as racist/sexist/homophobic etc. Like any political party, it will be a broad church and people will vote for them for a variety of reasons. Farage and Reform will appeal to plenty of people for reasons other than racist views, and I would argue that having concerns about immigration is not in itself an inherently racist view. Besides, not everyone who votes for Reform will do so because of immigration. They’re the only real viable right-wing alternative to the Tories, so plenty of people with right-wing views on things other than immigration who don’t want to vote Tory will vote for them.

I should add that I say all of this as someone who will not vote Reform and vehemently disagrees with what they stand for, and as someone who thinks that the issue of immigration has been massively blown out of proportion by both the Tories and Reform.

 

[AT86]

I think Reform UK evidently has an issue with attracting candidates who espouse this sort of rhetoric given the amount of stories we’re hearing about individuals associated with them, and this does need sorting.

My humble opinion is that these kind of candidates are exactly what Reform represents and believe. However they try and give themselves mainstream legitimacy by dressing it up and toning down their racist/homophobic/sexist views in public.

When they get any kind of power the ‘real’ Reform will be presented to us and it will be too late. They are dangerous and under estimating that is scary.

The impact of the Far Right and their attempts to ‘clean up their image’ in France now means they are on the brink of wining the elections, which is quite frankly terrifying and I fear a repeat in the UK in years to come if people don’t wake up and see Reform for what they are.

 

[Tom]

Well since Farage or no one else will answer the question of why certain people are attracted to Reform UK, the answer is here:

A mantra of controlling/reducing immigration will be appealing to many different standpoints, including, on a scale of decreasing extremity:

1. Neo-Nazis
2. Fascists
3. Racists
4. Authoritarians - both left and right economically
5. Social conservatives - both left and right economically

They try and turn a blind eye to (1, 2), deny (3), while trying to actively cohort the (5), and some of (4). Their target very similar to the appeal base of the Conservative Party, which is why they have gone after them far more so than Labour.

After the election, the Tories will not be able to out-Reform Reform, there will need to be an agreement to amalgamate Farage and/or the Tories into one, or the Tories will need to return to the economic leftish populism of Johnson to have a chance at a recovery.

If, as some predict, they Tories are knocked into Third place, their recovery becomes infinitely more complicated. Labour and the Lib Dems could diverge slightly to separately occupy right and left of centre ground in our two-party system.

If the Tories hang on to be the official opposition, they will need to diverge from whatever Labour actually ends up being in office, which I suspect will be considerably more left wing than what is being said in the campaign and manifesto. This makes for a more natural recovery for the Tories, but hopefully they don't get that chance.

 

[Slugjc]

I think he did answer it on question time (which he was appalling on) last night.

He takes credit for dismantling the far right groups like the BNP, be stealing there support. Which is fine Nigel. Those opinions don't change no matter which box they put a cross in. When your main political point is stopping immigration, you are going to attract racists. Near where I live, a village is having to scrub off reform UK graffiti off its buildings and signs. Which are also accompanied by tye NF logo.

It was alarming when Fiona Bruce read out some quotes from candidate's, standing for reform. And he had no idea who they are or what they have said. Practically had to sack them live on air because he clearly, either is blind to all this or hasn't got a clue what is actually going on at reform.

But good news people. Reform is not a racist party. They have a Muslim doing a talk at a rally this weekend.

 

[Ryan]

However, I’m marginally uncomfortable with the way that everyone who supports Reform is often painted as racist/sexist/homophobic etc.

That would be a rather extreme, hyperbolic viewpoint, I agree.

But being fully aware that the group you are lending support to harbours racists, sexists and homophobes, and stomaching all that simply because it might mean you end up getting what you want in life - I don't know if that is much better than actually being racist, sexist or homophobic yourself. "Yes I know they are scum, but they might make my life better", I dunno man, seems a bit gross.

If a party showed up that offered to irradicate all my tax responsibilities, maintain and improve public services, fix our relationship with the EU, reduce our environmental impact, make our country a positive and happy place to live...but they were infested with puppy killers....I'd rather we keep the lil puppos around and find another way to achieve all of the previous.

You don't get to put on the ballot which elements of a party you support, and which you abhor, it's completely binary - support, or no support. It's why choosing who to vote for is so difficult for people who want to make a good decision for themselves, their community and their country - you have to stomach things you might not like, you have to give all of your vote, or none of it. Reform could clean themselves up, and take "we are often scum" out of the equation completely, if they were interested in the people just wanting a right-of-Tory option. But they choose not to.

I think the question is - why can't any party find a way to be super-tough on immigration into this country, without waves of racists showing up? If there's a huge economic benefit just waiting for the drawbridge raise, a massive influx of cash and wealth and public service capacity ready to be unlocked the moment our borders close, why are all mainstream parties struggling so much to implement policies that achieve it? Why, when racism and xenophobia are removed, does immigration loose it's appeal? Because from here, it looks like without the emotion (usually hate), the maths falls apart. Just a thought.

 

[Slugjc]

He was questioned about the small boats. The idea he as is to simple and won't work. The idea is to get the royal navy to take them back to France. When the question was asked "what if France say no?" Nothing. His plan is, tow back and bully the French Into accepting them back.

 

[Ryan]

He was questioned about the small boats. The idea he as is to simple and won't work. The idea is to get the royal navy to take them back to France. When the question was asked "what if France say no?" Nothing. His plan is, tow back and bully the French Into accepting them back.

He doesn't need a plan, he doesn't need to answer questions. "Send them back to France" is all that's needed, he got it out there, millions cheered at the thought, end of story.

In too many circles in this country, applying thought, looking ahead at repercussions and weighing up a strategy is sneered at. "They should just..." can't be argued with. You can't ask who They are, you can't question what that action would mean, it's consequences, it's repercussions, it's alternatives, evidence of it's benefits. It's a full stop, always.

 

[BigT]

That would be a rather extreme, hyperbolic viewpoint, I agree.

But being fully aware that the group you are lending support to harbours racists, sexists and homophobes, and stomaching all that simply because it might mean you end up getting what you want in life - I don't know if that is much better than actually being racist, sexist or homophobic yourself. "Yes I know they are scum, but they might make my life better", I dunno man, seems a bit gross.

If a party showed up that offered to irradicate all my tax responsibilities, maintain and improve public services, fix our relationship with the EU, reduce our environmental impact, make our country a positive and happy place to live...but they were infested with puppy killers....I'd rather we keep the lil puppos around and find another way to achieve all of the previous.

You don't get to put on the ballot which elements of a party you support, and which you abhor, it's completely binary - support, or no support. It's why choosing who to vote for is so difficult for people who want to make a good decision for themselves, their community and their country - you have to stomach things you might not like, you have to give all of your vote, or none of it. Reform could clean themselves up, and take "we are often scum" out of the equation completely, if they were interested in the people just wanting a right-of-Tory option. But they choose not to.

I think the question is - why can't any party find a way to be super-tough on immigration into this country, without waves of racists showing up? If there's a huge economic benefit just waiting for the drawbridge raise, a massive influx of cash and wealth and public service capacity ready to be unlocked the moment our borders close, why are all mainstream parties struggling so much to implement policies that achieve it? Why, when racism and xenophobia are removed, does immigration loose it's appeal? Because from here, it looks like without the emotion (usually hate), the maths falls apart. Just a thought.

But all parties contain a few of these people with maybe the exception of the green’s but there’s probably a few peado’s in there as well.
With a party system it’s very hard to clean them out, the only way is to change the party system where you vote for the PM and then also your local MP on what ever they stand for but that’s unlikely to happen.
I bet if you ask 1000 people who they were actually voting for 990 wouldn’t even know, scroll down the ballot paper and tick the box with the party they want.

 

[Matt.GC]

I'm sorry but this is far more than a few bad eggs like every party struggles with. I know some hard core Reform fans, all of them say racist things.

This is completely intentional. Not everyone who votes or stands for Reform is racist. But their hard core supporters are. And it's intentionally designed this way.

Nige hated the EU for years. He used foreigners as the platform to get what he wanted. That's why we never had a mature debate about the EU. Nige, true to form, wants power to feed his ego. Different situation, using foreigners again to gain it. Same tactics.

He knows what he's doing. He knows there are a core of politically homeless racists and homophobes out there with no one to vote for. So he rounds them up to make himself more powerful. If he gets caught in the act, he just makes up conspiracy theories. And yesterday's actor theory, which was debunked by Channel 4 before he even took the BBC stage last night, is the most egregious.

If you spend years dog whistling, you'll find yourself surrounded by dogs. Now he just needs a plan to excuse why the dogs are there.

 

[BigT]

I’m certainly not defending him, can’t stand the bloke but I was just pointing out no party is whiter than white if you looking for somewhere to put your x that didn’t have some rouges in there.
Personally I wish Reform would just do one and I consider myself quite to the right whatever that even means these days.

 

[Ryan]

But all parties contain a few of these people with maybe the exception of the green’s but there’s probably a few peado’s in there as well.

Sometimes humans are terrible wasn't really the point I was making, I didn't think it needed to be.

This isn't about "a few, until now secret, racists hidden in Reform" - this is about the fact that racists feel safe in this party. Safe enough to publicly spout hate under the parties banner, run for election with social media profiles prefilled with racist bile - when racists are choosing a vehicle for the change they want, they turn to Reform.

There is nothing about the Green Party's identity, policies, manifesto, beliefs or structure that would specifically attract paedophiles.
There is lots about Reform's identity, policies, manifesto, beliefs and structure that would specifically attract racists. And, voila, attracted they have been.

Is Labour a natural home for a homophobe? Are the Lib Dems a natural home for racists? Are the Green Party a natural home for paedophiles?

For whom is Reform a natural home?

With a party system it’s very hard to clean them out, the only way is to change the party system where you vote for the PM and then also your local MP on what ever they stand for but that’s unlikely to happen.

Dissuading racists from standing for you is not difficult. Would an oil drinking, energy wasting, ecology destroying tyrant stand for the Greens? Would a UK unionist stand for the SNP? If you have aims that match with those of racists, you're gonna get racists.

Reform could be against immigration, from an economic point of view. They could go to great lengths to explain to potential voters how these terrible brown tax payers (the UK's immigrants now of course, mostly being from outside of our immediate neighbourhood, because of....Farage(?!)) are less able to support increased spending on public services to match a growing population, yet the same increase in population of white Engerlish people would suddenly allow an increase in hospital beds, police officers, road repairs etc. to be able to keep that population healthy, safe and economically useful. They could find ways to sell reduced immigration that wasn't about hearing FORREN languages on trains, or the horror of finding out your neighbours weren't born here and don't know the joys of black face Morris dancing, or the pain of having to walk past 3 EFFNIK food shops before reaching the very British, very English, stiff-upper-lipped ALDI.

They could do that, and water down their pool of supporters and candidates with non-racist, "just a bit concerned" economy focused people. But they can't, and they won't, and therefore the mixture is THICK with racists. There is nothing there for anyone else to be attracted to.

Oh, and, you know, vetting. Like everyone else manages to do.

I bet if you ask 1000 people who they were actually voting for 990 wouldn’t even know, scroll down the ballot paper and tick the box with the party they want.

Exactly, so the only real argument for voting Reform whilst pretending you're open minded about people with funny voices and shades of skin different to yours - "I know the party is stuffed full of tw**ts, but actually our local candidate is alright" - is weak.