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UK Politics General Discussion

What will be the result of the UK’s General Election?

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The two child benefit limit is tricky, but was a simple unearned income source for many to avoid work.
Next door but two have had eight kids in a row, with a strong desire for more...yet they stopped breeding about the time the limit was put in.
The good breeders then had to go out and get jobs...both of them.
The system works, but is flawed...hence all the foodbank expansion.
We need to get the people who live their whole lives on benefits back into self support.
I have personally worked with a couple of dozen such families in my previous career, one family alone was costing the state over a million pounds a year in care and benefit costs...and they still kept breeding.
Not isolated examples, but happening in every town and city, and it needs to be paid for out of general taxation.
We are a civil society and can't force sterilisation, so the matter, a real and pressing matter, has been managed to some degree economically.
Something has to be done, the underclass can no longer be funded by the workers, there are simply not enough workers!
Completely agree. Another thing I think the new government has been right to resist the pressure for. It would automatically lift many children out of poverty for sure, but it isn't a long term solution. The clue is in the name, Labour is supposed to be a party that represents hard working people. Throwing people out of work and making them dependent on benefits is a Tory thing, upping their benefits to keep Thatcherite policies going is New Labour thing.

Early days yet, but I'm liking what I'm hearing from this new government so far, it's certainly not the Blairite vehicle I was concerned it could've been. A kings speech absolutely stuffed full, resisting temptation just to get the cheque book out to fix everything, not afraid to upset NIMBY's to get houses built. The Rwanda insanity cancelled to plow money back into the border security and processing asylum claims, 20% tax on toff schools by January, and a Junior Doctors pay deal. They're spot on with their analysis of the state of things, their is no money at the treasury, we've never fully recovered from 2008 with growth and productivity being terrible for a generation, and the NHS is indeed "completely broken".

Reeves needs to be careful with all this "worst than we thought" stuff though. They were pretty candid about how bad it was before the election, so I hope she doesn't loose the good will of the public by doubling down on one of the oldest political tricks in the book. I think people have woken up to how bad everything has become, hence the election result, and are prepared to have a grown up debate about how to move forward. If people like me need to pay more taxes, then so be it.
 
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Been repeated so many times, but it was Blair who should have first increased taxes, instead he just reinforced the lurch to the right.
He just confirmed that greed is good.
 
Absolutely sickening and disgusting scenes across the country this weekend. Very disturbing but I fear has been brewing in this country for some time.

I’ve heard that some of these protestors feel dropping support for pensioners yet funding hotels for asylum seekers has prompted the riots.

Others suggest the killing of those three kids in Southport by a foreign male has sparked them.

Some say the constant influx of small boats coming across is the reason.

Some say false information is the cause on social media.

What I am seeing are young kids in hoodies looting shops, smashing car and house windows and going on the rampage just for the fun of it. I’m seeing adult males with nazi tattoos and doing nazi salutes. I’ve seen videos on Twitter of an Asian female being kicked in the face while a black man is set upon on the street.

Regardless of the reasons this is not a protest but just wanton violence and racism.

But had the previous government failed to take into account how high people’s feelings have been about this. Is starmer seen as a weak touch or has Labour lit the fuse by dropping social care support and winter fuel payments for the elderly?

Either way he is going to have to get a grip of this quick. If it means getting the army on the streets so be it - I certainly feel sorry for the police right now and would not want to be one of those in the thick of it right now.

Just watching the scenes of the hotel being attacked housing asylum seekers is truely frightening. It must be terrifying for the staff and people inside right now and the police are totally powerless to do anything. Get the army in there now before there is loss of life.

Finally, Farage is loving this. He is stirring it up.
 
Don't blame poverty and political correctness...this is all about one thing...
Scum, using a completely unrelated sad incident in Southport as a weak excuse to run riot and loot.
Send in the army, and armed police...rubber bullets required, and big hosepipes.
Chop their feet off at the ankles, to stop them running riot, and stitch up Farage's mouth for the peaceful benefit of the nation.

Though all this is of course all our fault for kicking out the Tories, the only party dedicated to law and order.
 
My opinion is that austerity cuts and political correctness has weakend our police to the point petty crimes are going un-punished. And so the brain dead feel empowered to terrorise their own neighbourhoods if there are little to no consequenses.
Absolutely. How many times (even on this very forum) have I moaned about the money being spent on HS2 and the likes instead of building more prisons and giving out proper sentences)? The government in the most stupid move ever known to man even came out a few weeks ago and told everyone that the prisons were now full and that they were even letting more people out early. Like stuntman said, it's basically common knowledge now that most low-level crime goes un-punished. It's not rocket science that in this scenario people will go out and do stuff like this when they are pi**ed off and see no real consequences at the end of it if they're caught. Terrible way to run a country.
 
The prisons were, and are, all full.
Should the state lie about it?
It has been known about for years.
Then they closed down Dartmoor because of Radon issues.
So the problem got worse.
We lock up more people per population unit than any other country in western Europe.
It costs a thousand pounds per week to lock up a shoplifter...simple sums, we can't afford to lock them all up.
Locking up all minor offenders would add massive costs to our state that we cannot afford.
Perhaps the stores should abandon self service, and go back to a counter service.
It did work ok for a couple of thousand years...self service tills didn't help store security either.
If stores cut front line staff in the chase for profits, perhaps they shouldn't scream so loud when stuff is so much easier to steal.
Chopping off feet at the ankles is quicker and cheaper.
 
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My position is that law and order should be a priority, and proper sentences should act as a deterrent as well as an eventual punishment. There's no deterrent at the moment. Redirect money from lower priority spending where needed. But like I say, this should have been done at least a decade ago. Apparently immigration is good for us but with that the amount of foreign nationals (or foreign born) in our prisons is significant but we havn't spent their tax take on adding prison places to at least keep up with them. As I said, p**s poor way to run a country, in my opinion 👍 :)
 
The Holiday Inn Hotel at the Snowdome in Tamworth was set alight last night. Rockets were being fired at Police helicopters and people generally being thugs. Smashed up the children's play park not far away and damaged our historic castle.

I am embarrassed to call myself English right now.
 
My position is that law and order should be a priority, and proper sentences should act as a deterrent as well as an eventual punishment. There's no deterrent at the moment. Redirect money from lower priority spending where needed. But like I say, this should have been done at least a decade ago. Apparently immigration is good for us but with that the amount of foreign nationals (or foreign born) in our prisons is significant but we havn't spent their tax take on adding prison places to at least keep up with them. As I said, p**s poor way to run a country, in my opinion 👍 :)
I'm really sorry mate, but locking people up would be fine if re-offending rates were low...but they aren't.
55% for short term sentences.
There are many career criminals out there who see custody as an occupational risk...at the cost of a grand a week for every last one.
They come out, and go back in within a year.
The majority!
Deterrent?
No.
And all the lower priority spending was cut decades ago, I know, I was there at the time in local government, and things have only got worse.
Thirty odd years of low taxation for the well off is now biting society in the arse.

Chopping off feet, compared to custody, is the sensible option...cheap, efficient, and an effective deterrent to the brutal thugs.

And why not just read the riot act and shoot the scum...perfectly legal isn't it?
 
Who would've thought that 14 years of austerity, lack of investment, cutting local services and blaming anyone else for these situations would result in this.

Imagine trying to defend rioting behind a "they're removing winter fuel payments" when that is a complete untruth (means tested is not the same thing).

Complain about police wasting time with non-important things when now they're going to spend ages going through countless bits of CCTV and knocking on doors to arrest the countless numpties.

What doesn't help is calling these events "protests". Perhaps some people are going with such a mindset, but when the actions turn out how they do? Well they were quick to relabel the riots in London all those years ago.

Looting Greggs and O2 to "Save Are Kids". Put them all on the asylum boats for a bit, or do we have any planes awaiting to go to Rwanda?
 
My position is that law and order should be a priority, and proper sentences should act as a deterrent as well as an eventual punishment. There's no deterrent at the moment. Redirect money from lower priority spending where needed. But like I say, this should have been done at least a decade ago. Apparently immigration is good for us but with that the amount of foreign nationals (or foreign born) in our prisons is significant but we havn't spent their tax take on adding prison places to at least keep up with them. As I said, p**s poor way to run a country, in my opinion 👍 :)
In the western world, the countries which lock up the most amount of people, per capita, and for the longest are the US and England & Wales. We're also one of a handful of nations who lock up children and can give them life sentences too. We keep good company with several dictatorships, on that list.

Prison doesn't work for the majority of crime. It doesn't solve the problem, it doesn't fix anything, it doesn't act as a deterrent. Nothing ever acts as a deterrent. If someone's wound you up, said some horrible things about your family, you don't think "I won't punch this guy, I might go to prison", you punch him. If you're tweaking and desperate for your next fix, you don't think "I won't steal this, because I'll go to prison", you steal it, sell it and buy your addiction fuel. Crime comes from places of desperation, misunderstandings, or inability to control emotions and reactions.

Every single one of these rioters knows that what they're doing could see them with a criminal record, many will already have one. They don't care because they think that their actions are justified, that they're fighting a good cause and are desperate (in a similar way to any other protester ever). They also think that because they've got the support of the literal mob, because that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of them, that they won't get caught. The maths and numbers are in their favour. There are more rioters than there are police, CPS lawyers, court appointment slots, prison spaces and probation officers. No justice system could ever cope with prosecuting the level of destruction we're currently seeing.

Short custodial sentences, anything up to a year, are often more problematic and destructive than longer sentences. 6-12 months inside is enough to lose your job and your home, but it's not enough for the rehabilitative services or programmes to kick in and they're low on the priority list for support when they come out. This drives further petty crime, because now you're in a cycle.

Longer sentences are not a silver bullet either. They are incredibly costly and resource intensive. The more people you have in custody, for longer periods, means you need around twice as many prison spaces are you currently have. You also need to stimulate those in custody. The devil makes use of idle hands and all. If you leave someone in a cell for 23.5 hours at a time, all you're building is resentment and when they come out (because everyone almost does), they'll be more likely to reoffend.

The second biggest failing of our criminal justice system, at the moment though, is the probation service. There aren't enough probation officers to go around. Presently probation have instructions to be hands off with returning citizens in the last 1/3rd of their sentence (unless they're under MAPPA restrictions), to cope with people being released early, because prisons don't have space. Meaningful rehabilitation cannot be achieved without a strong, stable, resilient and supportive probation service. We're also still feeling some of the after effects from privatising probation, for a few years, at the back end of the 2010s.

The biggest problem is Magistrates Court, but I don't have the willful energy to pick this apart at the moment. A board of unpaid wealthy community members sentencing their peers and passing judgements, despite no legal training of any sort, is not a great foundation for your entire justice system.

The punishment is to remove people from society and their lives, temporarily, for enough time that it takes to fix someone. Those are the founding principles of our criminal justice system and we're currently not meeting the minimum requirements of that. "Lock more people up for longer proper time!" will create more problems than we have now. We have to plan for what the journey is back into society for anyone convicted of a crime.

As for what to do with these rioters? Put the majority of them into a community payback programme. Unpaid labour to rebuild, fix and undo the criminal damage they've caused. They're disenfranchised from society, they don't think it works or supports anyone, they need to see that community is important, they need to be part of it.
 
I’ve heard that some of these protestors feel dropping support for pensioners yet funding hotels for asylum seekers has prompted the riots.
If we properly funded and staffed the asylum system then processed applications in a timely manner we wouldn't need to house those seeking asylum for so long.
 
The way to stop the unrest is for starmer to talk to the people like a person, not reading off a script and talking like a robot and have a real discussion about uncontrolled immigration and what they are doing about it. Acknowledge the problem, the anger, and actually talk to people about it without branding people racist.

Granted it’s not his fault, years of past government failings to deal with it are at fault, but he is in power now, it’s up to him to fix it.

His speech yesterday again was hollow, robotic and will do very little to stop the unrest.

As for prisons, how can they be a deterrent? For those with little, the thought of a free bed, food and a gym would perhaps be tempting. And then Labour get into power and release you early anyway. There isn’t any deterrent, and that’s why we are seeing hoardes of young teenagers in their tracksuits and hoodies raiding shops - because they know nothing will come of it.
 
The devil makes use of idle hands and all. If you leave someone in a cell for 23.5 hours at a time, all you're building is resentment and when they come out (because everyone almost does), they'll be more likely to reoffend.

Really good post - I just have one question about the point above.

If you go to prison, are bored senseless each day, stuck in a small cell for most of it, and find conditions pretty horrid - surely this would make someone not want to go back there as opposed to making them more likely to reoffend?
 
The way to stop the unrest is for starmer to talk to the people like a person, not reading off a script and talking like a robot and have a real discussion about uncontrolled immigration and what they are doing about it.

Or acknowledge that it isn't uncontrolled as since we've left the EU everyone coming here to work needs a visa. We don't particularly have an employment issue. We have (under a Conservative government) under-invested in public services, but this is unrelated to immigration.

Also immigration and seeking asylum are different topics. We've also under-invested in processing asylum claims leading to delays and needing to house more and more in hotels.
 
Me and my mates used to be the types to go out fighting on a weekend etc. Got caught eventually and 6 of us got sent down for 4 months. I've not re-offended and out of the 6 of us only one actually did re-offend and get sent to prison. We've all gone on to lead relatively productive lives since and that shock of realising that offending did actually have massive consequences got us to change the way we were living. Yes, there are many repeat offenders with frankly fu**ed up lives but they'll be a massive cost to society whether inside or out. Apart from being able to shoot them as Rob suggested earlier, the best place for them is stuck away inside away from society for as much time as possible.
 
Really good post - I just have one question about the point above.

If you go to prison, are bored senseless each day, stuck in a small cell for most of it, and find conditions pretty horrid - surely this would make someone not want to go back there as opposed to making them more likely to reoffend?
You'd think so, but the reoffending rate doesn't back up the theory. For some, of course, it will act as a deterrent, for the many it won't.

Let's walk through a hypothetical. Adam gets sentenced to a 6 year determinate sentence. After 3 years he will qualify for automatic release at the halfway point, and will be subject to the rest of his sentence under supervision in the community.

Adam's been banged up 23.5 hours a day, for three years, with restrictions on family visits, phone calls, minimal shower and exercise time. He was unlucky in that the majority of his sentence fell during the 3 years of strict COVID lockdown principles in prison. He's not undertaken any rehabilitative work in custody.

He's single, his family are distant or unequipped to be able to help him. When he's released, he'll be given a bed in a hostel, whilst on the list for local housing support.

The hostel / assisted supported living accomodation claim his rent from housing benefit, they pay the local housing authority rate for rent. They don't cover Adam's service charges of £60 per week, he'll have to pay that out of his Universal Credit.

He opens his claim, but it will take 5 weeks to process. He takes out an advance, which he'll have to pay back via deductions to his award every month, so that he can pay for his first month of services charges and get by. He'll have to get a phone, credit, clothes and pay for food and drink with the rest.

The supported living accomodation Adam is living in, is full of other people who have been released from custody, or are homeless. Illegal substances and alcohol are rife, their lives are depressing and they need to get by somehow.

Adam needs a job, but plenty of companies will not hire anyone with a criminal conviction. There are a few who ban the box, and actively work with offenders, but not with those of his criminal conviction type. Some see his address as the hostel and won't employ him, that place is trouble and full of ruffians.

Adam has no money. No support network. Probation are stretched and although they check in with him once a week, they can't point him in the direction of a job or speed up his housing application.

If Adam's lucky enough to get a job, whilst he's in the hostel, he'll be liable for the full rent and service charges for his cell like room; £800 or so in total per month. If he's working part time, or on a zero hours contract, this will get him into a cycle of debt with his housing provider.

Adam's a single man, of working age. He doesn't qualify as desperately in need on the housing register, his banding is middling at best. He's unlikely to ever get housing support from the local provider, in the form of his own home.

Adam's stuck for the foreseeable, waiting for Godot and something to happen. There are plenty of ways he could be recalled. He could be under the influence, he could start a fight / be in an argument with another problematic resident, he could go into petty theft to get by, he could break his licence conditions.

Anecdote and hypotheticals are not the plural of data, but this one is backed by the governments own statistics. By the time you're in the system this deep, of course, it's too late and many (as you've said) will see prison as a reprieve from the life which awaits them outside.
 
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