UK Politics General Discussion

[Matt N]

I think you have bought into the rights misinformation about PR there. Coalitions are not be default slow to form nor slow to act as a government. Historically Germany has had a very stable government, its only recently that it has had struggles.

Also you could argue that the last coalition in this country curbed the worse excesses of the Tories, as they couldn’t do everything they wanted. Once they had absolute power (without a majority of votes) then they went full evil.

If you feel that's the case, then fair enough, but I do feel that PR has flaws, that being one of them in some cases. While Germany may have traditionally been stable, other countries like Italy have historically had very unstable government under PR.

I do also think my second point about local representation is something that could definitely be weaker under PR. As @Matt.GC said, you currently vote for your local MP under our current system, and FPTP, for all its flaws, does provide a direct correlation between votes and victory at a constituency level; each constituency is directly represented in Parliament by an MP they voted for. This allows for residents of a constituency to vote on issues they feel are important to them locally and make sure they're given a voice at the national level, and in some cases, I do think PR would stunt this. For example, there are currently 15 independent MPs in Parliament, elected under a diverse makeup of localised causes. For example, Jeremy Corbyn was elected for Islington North, and there were various pro-Gaza independents elected at the last general election in some traditionally "safe" Labour seats in cities. There's an argument that this sort of local representation could be stunted under PR.

I'm not saying that FPTP is perfect, because it certainly isn't. But I don't think PR is a perfect catch-all solution either, and I think it's important to acknowledge its flaws. I admit it would be a fairer representation of popular vote at a national level, but I feel it would potentially bring other issues and not be a catch-all for every issue with our electoral and parliamentary system. I'm not necessarily against PR per se, but I'm not really a die hard advocate for it either.

 

[Dave]

If you feel that's the case, then fair enough, but I do feel that PR has flaws, that being one of them in some cases. While Germany may have traditionally been stable, other countries like Italy have historically had very unstable government under PR.

I do also think my second point about local representation is something that could definitely be weaker under PR. As @Matt.GC said, you currently vote for your local MP under our current system, and FPTP, for all its flaws, does provide a direct correlation between votes and victory at a constituency level; each constituency is directly represented in Parliament by an MP they voted for. This allows for residents of a constituency to vote on issues they feel are important to them locally and make sure they're given a voice at the national level, and in some cases, I do think PR would stunt this. For example, there are currently 15 independent MPs in Parliament, elected under a diverse makeup of localised causes. For example, Jeremy Corbyn was elected for Islington North, and there were various pro-Gaza independents elected at the last general election in some traditionally "safe" Labour seats in cities. There's an argument that this sort of local representation could be stunted under PR.

I'm not saying that FPTP is perfect, because it certainly isn't. But I don't think PR is a perfect catch-all solution either, and I think it's important to acknowledge its flaws. I admit it would be a fairer representation of popular vote at a national level, but I feel it would potentially bring other issues and not be a catch-all for every issue with our electoral and parliamentary system. I'm not necessarily against PR per se, but I'm not really a die hard advocate for it either.

No voting system is truly perfect, a true democracy would be a plebiscite, but often the population is so misinformed that a plebiscite can lead to real harm (look at Brexit). The idea of a modern democracy is you vote for someone with your values who in theory has the knowledge and skills to vote on your behalf. How that’s done has lots of options but truly FPTP is a terrible option as it gives majority rule to the minority.

The American system had good intent with its separation of powers but its major flaws are an overly powerful head of state, written Constitution that’s hard to amend (in my opinion) and politicians choosing judges meaning the judicial branch is not truly separate. Even many of the founding fathers worried about these issues.

L

 

[Matt N]

On a more news-related note for this UK politics thread, it seems that we’ve got some potential economic trouble brewing in the UK, at least partially as a result of external factors and potentially in part due to measures announced in the Budget. The cost of borrowing has risen to its highest level since the 2008 financial crisis, with gilt prices now higher than they were following the Liz Truss mini-budget, and sterling has dropped against the dollar.

There are fears of the UK economy potentially entering a “stagflation” period (a combination of slow economic growth, high unemployment and high inflation) as a result of this, despite an unexpected drop in inflation figures for December to 2.6%.

This is at least partially due to global uncertainties, such as the possibility of sweeping trade tariffs being imposed by a Donald Trump ministry in the US in the weeks to come and and a general rise in worldwide borrowing costs as a result of a rise in US borrowing costs. However, there are also suggestions that parts of the recent Budget, such as the sweeping rise in employer NI contributions, could be contributing to the current predicament. While many of the headwinds are global, Britain has greater stagflation concerns and faster-rising borrowing prices than other comparable economies.

Regardless of cause, this is thought to have wiped out the £10bn of fiscal headroom left in the recent Budget, meaning that Rachel Reeves is at risk of breaching her fiscal rules and will have to reach for either further tax rises or spending cuts in the March budget to make enough money to meet them.

Reeves ruled out further sweeping tax rises following the recent Budget and has also ruled out further increases in borrowing, so she is thought to be reaching for spending cuts. Keir Starmer has promised that the Treasury will be “ruthless” on spending cuts despite previous promises over not returning to austerity: https://www.theguardian.com/society...sury-will-be-ruthless-on-public-spending-cuts

Downing Street has said that “nothing is off the table” when it comes to public spending cuts, with departments having been encouraged to be ruthless and search long and hard for opportunities to cut. It is thought that a key cornerstone of these cuts will be welfare cuts, with deeper cuts to disability benefits such as PIP being heavily considered amid concerns over ballooning costs in the coming years: https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/n...ymeOpeRS1W-wlsnAVmzt2d9FDyeD_SLSHVud_-JSEWlbJ

What do we reckon to all of this? I’ll admit I’m starting to get a bit concerned about these economic figures, and I am starting to wonder if things will necessarily improve economically as a result of the Budget. I find the idea of public spending cuts concerning given that our public services are already on their knees with very little fat left to trim, and I think it could be absolute electoral suicide for Labour to make sweeping cuts given that they campaigned on not returning to austerity like what the Tories imposed. I’m increasingly starting to think that Reeves has made a rod for her own back with these “fiscal rules”; I feel she made a mistake in declaring that she wouldn’t raise taxes further and such, and I feel that she made a mistake during the election in pledging not to raise income tax, employee NI or VAT.

I’ll concede that I’m very unsure of how we could actually go about stimulating economic growth in this country, though… it’s a tough one, and I don’t see an obvious way out.

 

[DiogoJ42]

As someone who's spent their adult life surfing doom porn, I advise you to step away from the internet. Bad stuff happens, life rarely ever gets better. Nothing we can do about it. Quit stressing and have a nice cold pint.

 

[Tom]

We are in decline, and have been for decades. Managing that decline is all we can do. No party will ever admit that though. Again, the problem with democracy and having to win elections is that the truth isn't a popular thing to say.

Most of Europe is in the same boat, hence the nobility of the European Union as a concept - all of those countries need to stick together.

Ironically the Conservative Party chose to use Brexit to hasten our decline by opening the floodgates of immigration from the wider world, and erode GDP per head, and many other measures of our living standards, all at an accelerated rate.

 

[Quantum]

Nothing at all to do with the disastrous budget. Totally external factors....

The economy was showing signs of recovery but Labour decided they would give businesses and employers a damn good kicking instead.

I fully expect we are entering recession and nothing I've seen from this government so far will improve things. Tough times ahead I'm afraid

 

[Dave]

This was news yesterday but today inflation figures have settled the market.

Im not convinced on Reeves, but there is little in the economy right now that is a result of Labour as they haven’t been in power long enough. Previous Tory chancellor Ken Clarke even came out today to say that.

People think government’s can impact economic performance at the touch of a button but it’s rare they can (It has to be something as dramatic as Liz Truss), mostly economic management is more like turning an oil tanker, a small change on the rudder takes ages to have an impact.

As for the NI rate impact I think it’s minimal, small Businesses have been protected, big companies can usually absorb the cost. Market forces will limit how much they can pass the cost on. These companies are hardly being kicked when they pay out so much to their share holders.

The borrowing costs where going up globally anyway as the markets are spooked by Trump’s threat of tariffs.

As I say I’m not sure on the chancellors budget yet but most of the attacks have been hyperbole by the right wing media taken up by gullible readership at the moment.

 

[Dave]

Nothing at all to do with the disastrous budget. Totally external factors....

The economy was showing signs of recovery but Labour decided they would give businesses and employers a damn good kicking instead.

I fully expect we are entering recession and nothing I've seen from this government so far will improve things. Tough times ahead I'm afraid

Sorry just to add no the economy wasn’t showing signs of recovery, it was stagnating and buffering around global headwinds. Our economy has been stagnant since 2011 then took a huge kick in the globes due to Brexit.

Im not certain anything Labour is doing will change that (mostly because they won’t tackle the disaster that is Brexit), but it hasn’t had a net negative impact to date as the gilt yields where reacting to Trump and the inflation and growth figures are responding to an economy still working on a tempo managed by the previous government.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

Our economy has been stagnant since 2011

Yeah, but Dave, who was in charge before 2011 in the run up to the stagnation? LIEbour...

Who's in charge now and have had 5 months to sort it out? LIEbour...

I haven't layed a single golden egg since Keir Starmer's been Prime Minister. That says it all.

 

[Matt N]

If we’ve been in this long term doom loop of sluggish growth for 15 years, wouldn’t the financial crisis likely have something to do with that?

That seems like a more inherent issue that’s perhaps beyond one individual government in one individual term to solve.

The question is; how would you actually go about stimulating economic growth? It’s a bit more of a hand wavey concept than simply raising taxes or cutting public spending.

 

[Quantum]

Sorry just to add no the economy wasn’t showing signs of recovery, it was stagnating and buffering around global headwinds. Our economy has been stagnant since 2011 then took a huge kick in the globes due to Brexit.

Im not certain anything Labour is doing will change that (mostly because they won’t tackle the disaster that is Brexit), but it hasn’t had a net negative impact to date as the gilt yields where reacting to Trump and the inflation and growth figures are responding to an economy still working on a tempo managed by the previous government.

Must be great being Labour then, no matter how bad your policies are no matter how incompetent you are, actually nothing matters because of Brexit. That magical word that absolves all accountability, responsibility and any vague sense of compitance.

Price of everything is still going up, my bills are going up. Slapping a double whammy of No increases and minimum wage increases as well as stealth eco taxes on business is not good economics.

I massively disappointed with Labour, I'm foolishly expected better and they have just been an absolute train wreck. At least Ed Millibands is happy, he can stand atop of the smoldering wreckage of British industry while he spends 22bn on his wind farm fetish.

 

[DiogoJ42]

I remember growing up under Thatcher. With the exception of my hard-left unionist dad, most adults I knew said life would be a lot worse under Labour. "Winter of discontent" was mentioned a lot. (I doubt many adults outside of the London bubble would have felt the same in the 80's!)

I think it's safe to say that the early Blair years (pre-"45 minutes" claim) were the outliers. Labour usually seem to do more harm than good, from what I've seen. (Not that I'm saying the Tories are the answer, they are all as worthless as each other).

 

[Leigh]

I massively disappointed with Labour, I'm foolishly expected better and they have just been an absolute train wreck. At least Ed Millibands is happy, he can stand atop of the smoldering wreckage of British industry while he spends 22bn on his wind farm fetish.

That “wind farm fetish” is vital to our energy security in the years ahead - investing in green renewable energy sources reduces our reliance on foreign oil and gas and means we aren’t at the behest of foreign powers in the Middle East or Russia. With how messed up the world is right now, ensuring we have energy security is unfathomably important - just drilling in to the earth for more fossil fuels isn’t a permanent solution. Although I will admit I do wish other schemes like hydroelectric were invested in as well.

 

[Matt N]

I remember growing up under Thatcher. With the exception of my hard-left unionist dad, most adults I knew said life would be a lot worse under Labour. "Winter of discontent" was mentioned a lot. (I doubt many adults outside of the London bubble would have felt the same in the 80's!)

I think it's safe to say that the early Blair years (pre-"45 minutes" claim) were the outliers. Labour usually seem to do more harm than good, from what I've seen. (Not that I'm saying the Tories are the answer, they are all as worthless as each other).

My grandad and my late grandmother sound a lot like this. Whenever I said anything vaguely positive about the Labour Party, my nan used to tell me horror stories about how her power was cut out under Labour, how Labour spent money the country didn’t have, how there were strikes and suspended public services under Labour… both of my dad’s parents absolutely hated the Labour Party as a result of the 1970s and are/were quite Tory-leaning as a result!

With regard to your London comment, my grandparents also coincidentally lived in prime M25 belt (not London itself, but only a few miles from the M25 in Kent) until my dad was 15, so perhaps it is a “London” area thing?

With all that being said, my grandad revealed he did vote Labour in 2024, purely because as much as he hated the Labour Party, he hated our incumbent Tory MP more and desperately wanted to see him gone… although he seems to have switched back to Labour hating since Starmer has entered office, expressing concern about the economic figures since the Budget and suggesting that Elon Musk “might have the right idea about this lot”…

 

[DiogoJ42]

They are the only party I have never voted for over the years. And I never will. They introduced tuition fees and student loans at the worst possible time for me, ensuring I never went to uni. (My families attitude was that it's OK to be broke, but never be in debt. To this day I've never had a credit card.)

 

[Matt.GC]

Hyperbole in 2016 - "Well it's the mess that was inherited from Labour, they nearly left this country broke", Common excuse forgiving the Tories for their disastrous handling of the economy. Referring to a party that had been out of power for 6 years, and their response to a global economic crisis that happened just 2 years before they were booted out of power.

Hyperbole in 2025 - "Labour are ruining this country". Easy cliche to reach for when you want to point a finger. Referring to their handling of the economy just 6 months into receiving a broken - well everything- from a party that had been in power for 14 years and actually did leave the country broke and spent all the money.

Labour were stupid to make those ridiculous promises before the election, when it was patently obvious that the country was absolutely broken and the only way forward was tax rises and investment borrowing. This also painted them into the corner of the employers NI rise, which is also a mistake.

But to blame them for the country's woes right now shows quite a concerning lack of even a basic understanding among the populace of how economies work. The Tories set fire to the car and drove it off a cliff, and now we want to shout "hey, don't let your dog cock his leg on my car" to the guy on the beach who came over to see if he could help put the fire out.

Starmer was told he wasn't ambitious enough before the election, yet clearly the opposite was true. What do people expect? The economy still hasn't recovered since 2008, and

It's like the last 14 years never happened! But those 1970's, core blimey. Is there nothing anything titled 'Labour' won't get blamed for, and anything the Tories won't get forgiven for? 60 years ago is remembered clear as day, 6 months ago, ooh, that's a bit foggy that.

I'd like to know when this golden era of economic prosperity and competent control of the public finances occured during the last 17 years, I must have slept through it or something. It's right to question and debate their policies, but probably best to start finger pointing and cracking each others heads open to feast in the goo inside after 4 years rather than 6 months I'd say.

 

[rob666]

Now, in my elderly jaded eyes, this comes down to Blair.

You see, he had the opportunity to bring a bit of equality through taxation, but hey, Cool Brittannia and all that, stuff increasing taxes to assist the poor out of the hell hole they currently live in, if we increase taxes, we won't be cool any more, and we won't win the next election.

So Thatchers massive lurch to the right remained, and remains.

Greed is good, I'm doing fine, and screw the rest.

It has been that way for four decades now hasn't it???

Edit...wikipedia cutting of uk tax over the Tory years...there was plenty of scope for Labour, but Blair was too cool to increase taxes...
"
The government of Margaret Thatcher, who favoured taxation on consumption, reduced personal income tax rates during the 1980s in favour of indirect taxation... In the first budget after her election victory in 1979, the top rate was reduced from 83% to 60% and the basic rate from 33% to 30%... The basic rate was also cut for three successive budgets – to 29% in the 1986 budget, 27% in 1987 and to 25% in 1988; The top rate of income tax was cut to 40%... The investment income surcharge was abolished in 1985.

Under the government of John Major the basic rate was reduced in stages to 23% by 1997. "

 

[Dave]

Must be great being Labour then, no matter how bad your policies are no matter how incompetent you are, actually nothing matters because of Brexit. That magical word that absolves all accountability, responsibility and any vague sense of compitance.

Price of everything is still going up, my bills are going up. Slapping a double whammy of No increases and minimum wage increases as well as stealth eco taxes on business is not good economics.

I massively disappointed with Labour, I'm foolishly expected better and they have just been an absolute train wreck. At least Ed Millibands is happy, he can stand atop of the smoldering wreckage of British industry while he spends 22bn on his wind farm fetish.

You didn’t really read my post did you.

I clearly stated Labour are not dealing with Brexit and that’s the issue, hence why I also said I’m yet to be convinced. You can’t knock 4% off GDP by leaving the EU and hope it just magically comes back.

But conservatives always get a free pass on the economy yet every time they leave office they have presided over some level of incompetence that then gets blamed on Labour which is historically baffling. I’m just not sure Reeves is going to be bold enough to change anything.

As for wind farms if you are a climate change denier and have an issue with renewables then I don’t think anyone can help you. LA is burning whilst the east coast of America had a huge snow storm, hurricanes are increasing in regularity and strength and Europe burned in the summer. If a few windmills offends that much then I despair.

 

[Quantum]

Wind farms gould only make up part of the energy mix. We have micro nuclear reactors which we should be installing around the country. Putting all your faith in wind and solar is stupid and irresponsible. We have some of the highest energy costs in the world, no other country is going as hard and fast on wind and solar as we are and we only generate 1% of global emissions.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

no other country is going as hard and fast on wind and solar as we are and we only generate 1% of global emissions.

This seems like a silly and arbitrary reason to not do something. Someone always has to be first.

No other country was going as hard and fast on steam power in the 18th century. It started with some of the highest energy costs in the world, as engines were expensive to manufacture and install in the first instance.

Price of everything is still going up, my bills are going up.

I hate to break it to you, but the price of everything (and your bills), will ALWAYS go up. The nature of inflation means that price increases will always happen, it's just the rate at which they do. If prices started falling then the economy would be deflating and that's actually worse.