UK Politics General Discussion

[Matt N]

I think you have bought into the rights misinformation about PR there. Coalitions are not be default slow to form nor slow to act as a government. Historically Germany has had a very stable government, its only recently that it has had struggles.

Also you could argue that the last coalition in this country curbed the worse excesses of the Tories, as they couldn’t do everything they wanted. Once they had absolute power (without a majority of votes) then they went full evil.

If you feel that's the case, then fair enough, but I do feel that PR has flaws, that being one of them in some cases. While Germany may have traditionally been stable, other countries like Italy have historically had very unstable government under PR.

I do also think my second point about local representation is something that could definitely be weaker under PR. As @Matt.GC said, you currently vote for your local MP under our current system, and FPTP, for all its flaws, does provide a direct correlation between votes and victory at a constituency level; each constituency is directly represented in Parliament by an MP they voted for. This allows for residents of a constituency to vote on issues they feel are important to them locally and make sure they're given a voice at the national level, and in some cases, I do think PR would stunt this. For example, there are currently 15 independent MPs in Parliament, elected under a diverse makeup of localised causes. For example, Jeremy Corbyn was elected for Islington North, and there were various pro-Gaza independents elected at the last general election in some traditionally "safe" Labour seats in cities. There's an argument that this sort of local representation could be stunted under PR.

I'm not saying that FPTP is perfect, because it certainly isn't. But I don't think PR is a perfect catch-all solution either, and I think it's important to acknowledge its flaws. I admit it would be a fairer representation of popular vote at a national level, but I feel it would potentially bring other issues and not be a catch-all for every issue with our electoral and parliamentary system. I'm not necessarily against PR per se, but I'm not really a die hard advocate for it either.

 

[Dave]

If you feel that's the case, then fair enough, but I do feel that PR has flaws, that being one of them in some cases. While Germany may have traditionally been stable, other countries like Italy have historically had very unstable government under PR.

I do also think my second point about local representation is something that could definitely be weaker under PR. As @Matt.GC said, you currently vote for your local MP under our current system, and FPTP, for all its flaws, does provide a direct correlation between votes and victory at a constituency level; each constituency is directly represented in Parliament by an MP they voted for. This allows for residents of a constituency to vote on issues they feel are important to them locally and make sure they're given a voice at the national level, and in some cases, I do think PR would stunt this. For example, there are currently 15 independent MPs in Parliament, elected under a diverse makeup of localised causes. For example, Jeremy Corbyn was elected for Islington North, and there were various pro-Gaza independents elected at the last general election in some traditionally "safe" Labour seats in cities. There's an argument that this sort of local representation could be stunted under PR.

I'm not saying that FPTP is perfect, because it certainly isn't. But I don't think PR is a perfect catch-all solution either, and I think it's important to acknowledge its flaws. I admit it would be a fairer representation of popular vote at a national level, but I feel it would potentially bring other issues and not be a catch-all for every issue with our electoral and parliamentary system. I'm not necessarily against PR per se, but I'm not really a die hard advocate for it either.

No voting system is truly perfect, a true democracy would be a plebiscite, but often the population is so misinformed that a plebiscite can lead to real harm (look at Brexit). The idea of a modern democracy is you vote for someone with your values who in theory has the knowledge and skills to vote on your behalf. How that’s done has lots of options but truly FPTP is a terrible option as it gives majority rule to the minority.

The American system had good intent with its separation of powers but its major flaws are an overly powerful head of state, written Constitution that’s hard to amend (in my opinion) and politicians choosing judges meaning the judicial branch is not truly separate. Even many of the founding fathers worried about these issues.

L