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UK Politics General Discussion
Dave
TS Founding Member
It worries me that you under estimate the rhetoric of Enoch Powell.
I’m intermittently but regularly unimpressed with this government but today’s announcement is nowhere near the rhetoric of Powell, it doesn’t even come close to his closest acolyte in Farage….
still waiting the full details to be published but to my eyes they have done a big number on economic migration to satisfy the majority of people but haven’t made any real change to asylum (either positive or negative).
Genuinely at the moment (caveat being the full white paper hasn’t been scrutinised) the only big problem with what has been announced is the ending of visa’s for care workers.
Dobba
TS Member
The only migrants in this country Enoch Powell seemed to have any time for were those working in health. Starmer can't even pretend to like having them in the country.
Island of strangers indeed.
Dave
TS Founding Member
Yeah you clearly spend your time in some social media bubble that pushes an agenda because you responded with a soundbite not a fact.
What quotable distinct policy of Enoch Powell is the current government implementing?
D4n
TS Member
I must be one of the few people that has been impressed with Starmer's handling of the government so far.
He has appeared like an adult on the world stage. Domestically he has taken some Tory-lite decisions but, again, is a vast improvement on them purely because he acts like an adult. After Liz Truss and Boris Johnson it's just nice to have somebody competent in charge again.
It reminds me of the Cameron-Clegg coalition at present. That period actually wasn't too bad.
Critics of the government either expected too much too soon (many of these have now defected to Reform, a worrying trend) due to a lack of understanding of the complexities of government or they expected lots of politically unpopular socialist policies. I think that it's sensible to avoid that given the threat of Reform. I liked Corbyn but he lost heavily for a reason.
On both the domestic and the world stage, Starmer often looks like the only adult in the room. It's a shame that more people don't see that.
He has appeared like an adult on the world stage. Domestically he has taken some Tory-lite decisions but, again, is a vast improvement on them purely because he acts like an adult. After Liz Truss and Boris Johnson it's just nice to have somebody competent in charge again.
It reminds me of the Cameron-Clegg coalition at present. That period actually wasn't too bad.
Critics of the government either expected too much too soon (many of these have now defected to Reform, a worrying trend) due to a lack of understanding of the complexities of government or they expected lots of politically unpopular socialist policies. I think that it's sensible to avoid that given the threat of Reform. I liked Corbyn but he lost heavily for a reason.
On both the domestic and the world stage, Starmer often looks like the only adult in the room. It's a shame that more people don't see that.
GooseOnTheLoose
TS Member
They aren't. The rhetoric and sound bite are quite the pastiche, however, and are shocking optics for a human rights lawyer elected on a ticket of positive change.
These are things that ought to be considered, when taking stock of the present situation.
Dobba
TS Member
You want me to name the policies of someone who was never leader of a political party?
Sure.
Austerity - "wasn't too bad"
Dave
TS Founding Member
You are associating one person with another, I think you should provide examples of how they align.
Sure.
And as for @GooseOnTheLoose comment which I neglected to click the quote button. The rhetoric is curious for certain but it is not pastiche of Powell, the only part that comes close is the increase English language competency requirement as he was obsessed with (commonwealth) immigration not integrating.
The policy announced is 50% bad policy forced by politics and 50% probably ok policy (stopping companies using immigrant labour instead of investing in available workforce for example) but won’t actually reduce immigration numbers so won’t stop Farage.
Dobba
TS Member
I'm not associating one with the other, Starmer is by parroting part of his most famous speech (and quite possibly the most racist rant a British politician has given in living memory) almost verbatim.
Matt.GC
TS Member
I can't agree that the coalition years weren't too bad. That failed strategy is a key baseline for the situation we now found ourselves in. But I can agree that those times looked like a golden era compared to everything that has occured since, once those lot were left on their own.
Clegg deserved to pay the price for his treachery, but all it did was hand the keys to a party that wasn't anywhere near fit to hold such high office.
Theres a lot to be critical about with this current government. They really are bad at politics. But the expectation on them is absurd. It's like people want to believe the lies of Reform. That they can have their cake and eat it. All we have to do is send our non-existent Navy out to send a load of boats back to France and leave the ECHR and everything will be rosy again.
The country is a laughing stock, but not nearly as much as it was a year ago and beyond. People are quick to criticise, but I note from this thread that it's mostly just finger pointing whilst offering either no solutions whatsoever, or parroting insane Reform stuff.
I note what @Dave said earlier though reference how no one seems to be looking at the Lib Dems. Whilst the Tories are sat on the lowest amount of MP's they've ever had in their modern history and still crumbling away, the focus is on Reform and how they're hoovering up the crazed right wingers, whilst stealing swaths of the old labour heartlands while they're at it. Meanwhile, the Lib Dems have never been so successful, and are building a substantial base of centrist Labour and Tory voters.
Reform now have to show how they are grown ups with their new power. Labour will likely focus on straddling the line between trying to see them off whilst not interrupting them destroying the only real opposition they have.
Despite Ed Davey bungie jumping and falling off of paddle boards, the established media, social media, Starmer, Baddenoch, and Farage can't see the thief in the night eating away at all of them.
BarryZola
TS Member
To deal with illegal immigration the first part of policy should be that if you arrive in this country illegally (via dinghy, back of lorry etc) then you will NEVER be granted asylum, leave to stay or be given citizenship in any way, shape or form. Have some respect for the country you're trying to get to help you. We'll agree to take our fair share of people who have fled their country through danger to life etc, but we'll have means of processing from outside the country. Change the laws in parliament over the space of a week if necessary. It can be done, we're not beholden to Europe anymore.
If you arrive illegally and found, then you'll be given secure accommodation until you can be sent back to where you've come from. If you've forgotten where you came from and lost your passport at sea, you can stay in the secure accommodation until you remember (you might fill them up at first, but when the message gets out that Britain is not a soft touch they'll become emptier and emptier and they can be repurposed to open prisons etc for our lot).
It's a big issue that will not go away in politics until it's sorted. It needs a radical solution as if you look at some of the daily numbers of illegal arrivals it's ridiculous. The solution is to get the message out that it's not worth landing here illegally as it won't work out well for you.
There's the solution, but we've gone too soft to implement it and now people with money and influence in this country have got used to the money they're getting from housing these people in hotels so there's your other problem.
If you arrive illegally and found, then you'll be given secure accommodation until you can be sent back to where you've come from. If you've forgotten where you came from and lost your passport at sea, you can stay in the secure accommodation until you remember (you might fill them up at first, but when the message gets out that Britain is not a soft touch they'll become emptier and emptier and they can be repurposed to open prisons etc for our lot).
It's a big issue that will not go away in politics until it's sorted. It needs a radical solution as if you look at some of the daily numbers of illegal arrivals it's ridiculous. The solution is to get the message out that it's not worth landing here illegally as it won't work out well for you.
There's the solution, but we've gone too soft to implement it and now people with money and influence in this country have got used to the money they're getting from housing these people in hotels so there's your other problem.
The British people have voted for lower immigration numbers, both legal and irregular for almost 20 years.
Up until around 97/98 the UK had never had a net migration number greater then 100k in modern history.
We have recently been at over 300k. The pace of change was lunacy in the extreme.
Combine this with many parts of the UK experiencing decreasing living standards since the 80s and this accelerating again since 2008. Particularly in post industrial/left behind areas such as my home city of Stoke On Trent.
Add to this the recent chaos of tens of thousands of people floating across the channel and ending up in hotels around the country in a perceived un-stoppable manner. It can’t go on.
People have asked, democratically, at the ballot box for this to be stopped and as a minimum controlled. And they are perfectly right to do so. The more they’ve been ignored the reaction has been increased, combine this with the problems mentioned above (and i don’t believe they’re directly related) and you have a dangerous mix.
What Labour have announced today in my mind as a socially conservative, economically left voter (strong military, pro nationalisation, pro monarchy) seems perfectly inline with what they’ve said previously and recently and what people want.
Business have not, and do not, invest enough in their own companies (training/apprentices), how much of that is by design or ownership models remains to be seen but it needs to change. We have a huge increase in economically inactive people that also needs to change.
Migration is too high. Any reasonable planning in terms of school places, doctors appointments, houses etc have not supported and cannot support this influx. Migration should be a reasonably calculable number, based on a myriad of factors, taking most of the emotion out of it.
Large parts of this country do feel like living with strangers. And we’ve built our country this way. Segregated communities not only based on religion, but also based on wealth. Urban vs rural. North vs south.
And this has started with schools.
We can’t have communities that don’t feel British, don’t take part in British culture, have no interest in integration at all. I see it with my own eyes daily,
I’ve felt it with some voluntary work I’ve done and also 2nd hand from friends and relatives who deal with minority communities.
It’s huge problem, I hate it and don’t want it to carry on as it won’t end well. All sides need to contribute to society, at the moment it’s not working and it’s dangerous. As my city was once the jewel in the crown in the BNP, has experienced many riots including last summer, was classified as the capital of Brexit and had the first Brexit MP candidate (failed) I’ve seen all of this first hand over my lifetime. And I really struggle with even pretending to listen to voices who haven’t seen it, it’s pointless. (And yes i do read the guardian)
Farage isn’t the cause of all this, he’s the symptom. Of a broken country, lacking a vision of the future and any ideological or real concept of how to improve peoples standard of living. Just platitudes and blame. I worry the excuses are running out and as we get more unequal, as AI takes hold and as we give ourselves less and less options to do something different. Our problems will get bigger and bigger.
Up until around 97/98 the UK had never had a net migration number greater then 100k in modern history.
We have recently been at over 300k. The pace of change was lunacy in the extreme.
Combine this with many parts of the UK experiencing decreasing living standards since the 80s and this accelerating again since 2008. Particularly in post industrial/left behind areas such as my home city of Stoke On Trent.
Add to this the recent chaos of tens of thousands of people floating across the channel and ending up in hotels around the country in a perceived un-stoppable manner. It can’t go on.
People have asked, democratically, at the ballot box for this to be stopped and as a minimum controlled. And they are perfectly right to do so. The more they’ve been ignored the reaction has been increased, combine this with the problems mentioned above (and i don’t believe they’re directly related) and you have a dangerous mix.
What Labour have announced today in my mind as a socially conservative, economically left voter (strong military, pro nationalisation, pro monarchy) seems perfectly inline with what they’ve said previously and recently and what people want.
Business have not, and do not, invest enough in their own companies (training/apprentices), how much of that is by design or ownership models remains to be seen but it needs to change. We have a huge increase in economically inactive people that also needs to change.
Migration is too high. Any reasonable planning in terms of school places, doctors appointments, houses etc have not supported and cannot support this influx. Migration should be a reasonably calculable number, based on a myriad of factors, taking most of the emotion out of it.
Large parts of this country do feel like living with strangers. And we’ve built our country this way. Segregated communities not only based on religion, but also based on wealth. Urban vs rural. North vs south.
And this has started with schools.
We can’t have communities that don’t feel British, don’t take part in British culture, have no interest in integration at all. I see it with my own eyes daily,
I’ve felt it with some voluntary work I’ve done and also 2nd hand from friends and relatives who deal with minority communities.
It’s huge problem, I hate it and don’t want it to carry on as it won’t end well. All sides need to contribute to society, at the moment it’s not working and it’s dangerous. As my city was once the jewel in the crown in the BNP, has experienced many riots including last summer, was classified as the capital of Brexit and had the first Brexit MP candidate (failed) I’ve seen all of this first hand over my lifetime. And I really struggle with even pretending to listen to voices who haven’t seen it, it’s pointless. (And yes i do read the guardian)
Farage isn’t the cause of all this, he’s the symptom. Of a broken country, lacking a vision of the future and any ideological or real concept of how to improve peoples standard of living. Just platitudes and blame. I worry the excuses are running out and as we get more unequal, as AI takes hold and as we give ourselves less and less options to do something different. Our problems will get bigger and bigger.
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Benzin
TS Member
I mean most parties have supporters doing some fantastic mental gymnastics to support their person over the "opposition".
Implementing methods of safe and legal immigration would help. Basically the way forward is to remove the many avenues of illegal methods, however for whatever reason no political party wants to actually do this. Rather just let it all stew and fester allowing many to be hurt through the dangerous crossings and the criminals who organise these get away with it. But immigration issues win votes, apparently, even if your party has been the reason for over a decade of mismanagement and lack of any real development to allow the country to do anything.
Copying the current US tactic would be an absolute disaster.
jon81uk
TS Member
We need an asylum processing centre in France. That would cut down on a lot of the boats as it would open an easy and safe route to claim asylum in the UK.
Lewis232
TS Member
Not being "Beholden to Europe" is the reason people arriving by boat has massively increased since Brexit, as we are no longer part of the Dublin agreement and therefore cannot now send individuals back to the first EU country they arrived in, and the gangs provided boats know this and have taken advantage of it. Under International law the UK is obliged to process asylum applications from anyone fleeing persecution in their home country and provide housing and food whilst their claim is processed. Large numbers are returned each year as their applications are denied but there is a backlog due to not having the resources to deal with the large numbers. There is currently no possible way to claim asylum from outside the UK and no visa exists which allows people to enter and claim asylum, hence why many cross illegally to claim instead. The UK could change this but decides not to.
Anyway, only about 10% of migration to the UK is via this method, the vast majority is legal migration, which has doubled since Brexit, when the points based immigration system was introduced. Pre-Brexit the immigration was generally younger, single people who contributed taxes and generally weren't sick, didn't have elderly relatives or kids and so didn't put much strain on the NHS, schools and other services. They would often return home after a while as well. Since Brexit we have had to import workers from far and wide (Africa, Asia) to fill the skills gaps, especially in heath and care, and they often want to bring family / dependants with them and stay long term.
pluk
TS Member
Clearing the backlog of cases should be the highest priority, every other bit of tinkering outside of this is pointless when nothing new can be enforced because of the backlog.
Lewis232
TS Member
Illegal immigration can be solved by introducing asylum applications and processing overseas, which would greatly reduce boat crossings. The solution to lowering legal migration is to join the single market / customs union, which is possible as a non-EU member state. The only other options are to keep immigration at the current high levels or see a collapse of the health and social care system in the UK.
Anyway, utterly bizarre Labour are trying to out-reform reform but I guess it's panicking at some poor local election results.
Anyway, utterly bizarre Labour are trying to out-reform reform but I guess it's panicking at some poor local election results.
Processing centre in France?? They are in the same boat (pun intended). Illegal asylum seekers are only in France to get to the UK. Otherwise they'd be somewhere with better weather 
Send them back to the first point of entry (EU) and then distribute accordingly.
Arrive illegally - deported immediately. If that means we have to leave the EHCR then so be it. It doesn't mean we are giving up on all of it, just the bits that make no sense.
Send them back to the first point of entry (EU) and then distribute accordingly.Arrive illegally - deported immediately. If that means we have to leave the EHCR then so be it. It doesn't mean we are giving up on all of it, just the bits that make no sense.