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Waiting list for a waiting list? (VIP related)

The european parks is a good shout. Were swapping our usual 2 weeks all inclusive next year to earlier in the year and aim to spend the summer holiday time in Europe a bit of culture and something different for the kids. If we can tie this in with a visit or two to one or more of the european parks that would be great.

Thanks for all the info. I shall look into both this parent swap thing and the European parks. :)
 
I detest paid for VIP, fastrack and any method of paying to trump other less wealthy people.
I feel this way despite having a good job with sufficient disposable income to buy my way if I wanted to.

I'm not judging you @RedBall and you sound like a good parent who just wants his family to have a good time. I just wonder if you've stopped and thought about the life lessons that this behaviour may pass on to your kids. IMO, it's basically telling them that they are more important than all the kids standing and waiting in the regular queue.

Of course, having money will always buy you better options, experiences and service. However, making others wait longer by paying more just doesn't sit right with me.
 
Some very fair points I agree, though it can be viewed from another angle. Long post warning....

Most of the time we do queue, in fact Ive not used a fast pass at all with the kids yet. Key word being "yet". I can see it coming though.

During our visit to Alton Towers this week the longest queue was probably 20 minutes or so. Which was fine for all of us. However had they been approaching an hour then I would have been looking to buy fast passes.

The queues at Legoland a couple of weeks earlier for Ninjago and a couple of others were quite a bit longer, but they had entertainment for the kids n the form of lego pits for them to play with whilst the parents queued round the outside of them. I thought that was quite good, and if there were entertainment in the queues at Alton Towers for small children then I expect queues approaching an hour would pose no problem there either.

Its been many years since I last visited disney, but I recall that there was entertainment in the queus there, and immersive environments and storyline build ups etc which made the queue part of the experience. Obviously thats possible with Disney budgets, but perhaps stuff on a smaller scale would suffice for queues at Alton Towers. It certainly seemed to do the trick at Legoland.

However, I fear that the business model at Alton Towers is geared toward selling fast passes. Whilst I agree that in general the ability to jump in front of others just because you can afford it is quite an ugly concept, its also a very real one.

Moreover its the concept that Alton Towers seem to be pushing, and I expect that any investment in making the queues more entertaining and less likely to part parents from their cash to skip them, will be pretty far down the priority list. It truly is a "if you cant beat em' join em" scenario. You are left with the option of trying to instill life lessons and stand in a queue with two children aged 6 and under for an hour, or spend a few quid and skip it.

They will learn the value of money, and to be fair my little lad who has just turned six is already surprising me with some of the things he says. "I dont want to spend my money on that extra track for the trainset daddy, it wont make it much longer and its still the same toy", he's even brought me close to tears by saying he wants to buy a toy for his sister instead because he has lots of toys already and "Emma always likes new dollies". He even told me yesterday that because he gets quite a bit of money from the tooth fairy he thinks maybe after the next tooth he will start giving it to charity. He's six going on sixty! I think becase I like to do and have done bits for charity with things like garden parties, supercar drives and christmas lights etc he is picking up on it.

When the time comes to consider a fastpass for a ride for the first time, he will have the choice of getting on the ride/s quicker or having something from the toy/gift shop to remember his day out and keep forever. I already know he will choose to stay in the queue, but he will make the decision at that time.

However later in life when they fully understand the value of money and they are able to go on all the rides, then it will be me buying fast passes for all the family. I am fortunate enough to be able to afford to do this, and as Ive said before, spending money on getting on more rides with my family will not be on my list of regrets. It will be lumped in with all the other frivolous stuff that I spend money on in order to give us more family time together. Robot lawnmowers being the latest example. The wife rolled her eyes as its "another bl00dy gadget", but now its mowing weather we can enjoy the few hours it used to take each week, playing in the garden with the kids, having a beer on the patio in the evening. Just like the hour out of the queue would be spent on a picnic, or sit down lunch instead of a rushed burger etc.

Thats really why I dont like the merlin branding of the VIP pass. I don't want them because they are for "Very Important Persons". That sort of crap breeds this holier than though attitude from the sort of monied irks that I don't like. "Do you know who I am"....
It also generates preconcieved impressions of people who hold the VIP passes that they are automatically one of the aforementioned irks. When in reality I would like to think Im just trading money for the ability to spend time with my family in a way that better suits us rather than queueing.

Yes it disadvantages others, and that is a shame. But its not an entirely unique concept where spending money jumps you up the queue or puts you in a better position than others. Front row tickets at concerts, theatres, sporting events, priority boarding at airports, next day delivery.

Life is full of examples where money affords you benefits over others. Its a sad truth, but a truth none the less. The key is to recognise this whilst remaining humble and without lording it over others. Which is why if I was fortunate enough to obtain Merlin VIP passes, the first thing I would do is put some sort of sticker over the bit that says VIP. Having that pass would not make my children more "important" than anyone elses, and I wouldn't want them thinking they were. I'd also explain as much to any member of staff who asked why we had a sticker over them.

I hope the above, whilst very long winded, gives you an insight into my motives for asking about the VIP passes.

:)
 
I think the key thing to question is if you think the service is not up to scratch then why would you pay more to them? I would take my custom elsewhere where my money and custom is appreciated.

That's what I have done. We go to local parks in the UK and use the money saved for Europe/USA parks :)
 
Its not that I dont like the park or think it is "bad". I may well do exactly what you are doing once we have experience of the European parks.

The children are of an age where an annual pass for Merlin is looking like it might be useful. This year is the first year we have had them, and we got them with clubcard vouchers. My son is now of an age where legoland is interesting to him, and my daughter is now able to enjoy rides. First impressionas are that we will make good use of the passes, but I have my concerns over the queues that dont have any entertainment within (unlike legoland). So was making investigations on the VIP passes.

It may well be that after experiencing the european parks we give Alton Towers a miss. Though we do also use some smaller local parks and farm parks regularly, they are great value and exceptionally good service. If you go on a quiet day and they dont have all the rides open, staff members will offer to open them up just for you. Brilliant service.
 
bluesonichd said:
:eek::eek:
dont wear the lanyard, oh and dont buy the hoodie with Merlin VIP emblazoned on the back :p
Click to expand...

Ive seen people wearing their premium pass on a lanyard - what is all that about? My standard ones are in my wallet and come out for food etc, but Id still put a sticker over the VIP bit out of principal.

Please tell me you are joking about the hoodie. They don't sell that do they!? That would take ego massaging to a whole new level.
 
@RedBall My comment about priority tickets being "antisocial" wasn't intended to be a personal offense. People may have legitimate reasons to request them, such as having only a day to make all rides, or they may get them for free in some parks, if they have an annual pass or stay in a park hotel. But I think it's not a good solution, and as a policy by the parks, it's definitely antisocial. Especially when it comes to creating parallel peasants and nobility queues. The incident where I kept the kids from buying priority tickets, happened a number of years ago.

But the business model, I call it the Port Aventura model, because this park is infamous for it, to charge people a full entrance fee of £40 to 50, then make their visit tedious by long, often manufactured queues, giving them only 3 or 4 rides instead of 8 or 10 possible on a day, in order to make them buy fast track, comes close to fraud. For the admission, one can expect a share of available attraction use, and not fast trackers blocking everything, because they have high or absolute priority. It's like a supermarket indirectly increasing the price, by making package content half or a third at the same price, maybe creating the same big packages with much more air inside. If theme parks move away from the great classic "pay once and for all" and set out to squeeze ever more money out during the visit, they should abolish or greatly reduce the admission fee and charge per ride, funfair style. This would be, in fact, more fun and fair, than suggesting a one-time fee, and then offer frustration and offensive hierarchies when not paying extra. Hierarchic queues would then still be a problem, because their offensive character and the incentive for poor operations, to force people into the premium queue, would remain.

If I had £3k to spend for leisure, I would not try to almost force them into a company that doesn't give me good service anyway. There's Disney Paris (not cheap), Europa Park (avoid the special events and the virtual reality option, where they use paid fast tracks), Efteling is good for kids who like fairy tales and dark rides. And there's a couple of parks who have paid fast tracks, but use them more cautiously, like Phantasialand (these have stepped back a bit from their initial, more aggressive use). But once they exist, the park policy can change quickly from a cautious to Port Aventura style, so it's recommended to check online before.
 
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No offense taken at all @PhantaDad2017 I agree with everything you have said, it is an antisocial policy and I would preffer that it didnt exist at all, then everyone gets a fair crack at the whip, but as its ot of the bottle its a case of morality vs wanting to get on the rides. Looking at the number of posters for fastpass and the way you can upgrade to the unlimited ones etc, I think this is very much part of the business model now.

Engineering queues to force people to buy fasttrack doesn't come close to fraud, in my opinion it is fraud, or at the very least extortion.
 
It's only a small minority who demand paid fast tracks in parks online, if not sock puppets by the parks themselves. Maybe more in theme park forums, where the share of potential "power users" is bigger than in general public.

Even there, most strictly reject them; here's a poll in an Europa Park forum. The upper bar is for those who want them, the middle for those who don't care, and the lower for those who don't want them. So it's about 3% of visitors who may spend 100 to 120€ for admission and fast tickets per visit, but 88%, who spend about 50€ each, and get turned off by priority queues. So "power users" make not up the losses in regular visitors, unless the last are being pushed to buy priority tickets themselves.
 
I had a VIP pass in its first year, for many reasons and not just the fastrack. I had trips planned up for Heide Park and Gardaland that year, so factored the price of multi day tickets, the golden tickets for lift hill walks and the two tickets for a guest with full fastrack. For me, it worked out to be better financially to buy this pass. But after that first year and with the cuts beginning to bite even at that time, there was no way I was going to renew.

Stuie said:
I detest paid for VIP, fastrack and any method of paying to trump other less wealthy people.
I feel this way despite having a good job with sufficient disposable income to buy my way if I wanted to.

Of course, having money will always buy you better options, experiences and service. However, making others wait longer by paying more just doesn't sit right with me.
Click to expand...

Personally, I don't actually agree with you there. I do not look at it as a way of trumping other people at all. If fastrack (paid or free) is done correctly, then the impact on queues can be negligible. Its when its oversold or not done well that it can cause a problem.

I am visiting the US in May / June and will be at several very large parks on weekends and public holidays. The chances are that the parks will be absolutely rammed. Do I queue 3 hours for Steel Vengeance multiple times and miss out on the rest of the rides at the park, or should I purchase the fast lane plus service that Cedar Point offer? To someone who will only be at the park a day its a no-brainer.

After having done fast track packages previously in the US at Cedar Fair and Six Flags parks, they have all been managed far better than any Merlin park. I have never seen a long fast track queue like I have at a Merlin park. This is the big difference that I have found, especially when I have seen Merlin staff selling single use fast track tickets outside queuelines and quoting increased queuetimes. That I find very hard to swallow.
 
I think if the queue waiting time is over 1 hour long, then you can start to blame the park for either having bad throughput, not enough attractions elsewhere or allowing too many guests in to the park, any less and you've just got to teach your kids to be patient; as I've said before: we live in an age of instant gratification, everyone wants everything NOW. I agree with the Port Aventura comment and I think the same can be said for parks like AT and particularly Thorpe park. I think it's a deliberate ploy and an ill thought out cash cow policy, and yes, as John says, they clearly haven't followed the rules of the price mechanism when setting the price.
 
@PeteA : Some of your post sounds illogical to me:

PeteA said:
If fastrack (paid or free) is done correctly, then the impact on queues can be negligible. Its when its oversold or not done well that it can cause a problem.
Click to expand...

All park rides have a specified capacity, which is to be distributed among visitors. Priority lanes can't magically add capacity to rides, they always have to take away a share from the regular visitors (as opposed to single rider lanes, which are used to fill up empty seats). Very simple math: every additional ride for a fast tracker is a ride less available for regular users.

Thus, fast tracks can never be done "well" or "correctly", only a lesser evil. Even cautious implementations of fast lanes have serious impact on regular visitors' experience, apart from immediately taking away rides, through all the other negative implications.

Overselling (esp. combined with high/absolute priority and unlimited rides) may lead to extreme waiting times, or even no ride at all available for regular visitors, who nevertheless paid their full admission price (fraudulent), or long queues in the fast lane - a risk that always comes with a high demand for something, or when people are forced to upgrade to fast lanes. Immediately, it is the greater evil, but it has at least the advantage, that visitors hopefully don't take this anymore and stay away in the future, maybe reclaim their admission fee.

So, why do parks like Cedar Point have regular queues of 3 hours at all? They would probably be more like 60 or 90 minutes, without fast trackers taking away a large portion of the rides.

Some parks are simply not supposed to be done in one day. While I understand the wish to make a quick round through everything, and it would probably be possible on a pay-per-ride base, it can't be done in a park that offers a good number of rides for a fixed admission fee, without messing up the balance. Honestly, I don't care if there are queues in fast lanes, so they have to wait 10 or 15 minutes.
 
Another piece of math, Cedar Point as example (day with 12 hours open, not very crowded, online tickets, not gate) for a maximum ride usage:

Regular: $49 admission, avg. wait and ride time : 90min
- 8 rides per visit
- $6.13 per ride

Fast Lane+: $49+$85 = $134, avg. wait and ride time : 10min
- 72 rides per visit
- $1.86 per ride

So effectively, regular visitors pay for the fast trackers with their admission fee. They pay more than three times as much on a per-ride base. The fast tracker takes away as many rides as 9 regular visitors, while paying less than three times the price.

When wait time increases to 3 hours average, one ride costs $12.26, a price that would be very high, even at a funfair. The wait time for Fast Lane+ will likely not increase significantly.
 
Have to agree with this.
I use the BPB version for the Vampire Beach, because the park is rammed and my mate has 2 young kids, and I have dodgy knees.
I explained the intricacies of the system to my mate, and we booked a ride on the dipper...2 hour queue.
My mate says...that's not a 2 hour queue...I've queued for half an hour from there.
So I explain that half of the people in the queue aren't actually there, but queuing virtually, like us, and riding the lesser rides or in the bars, and then they also leave room for the mid stream speedypassers, and further places for the vip passers who only queue for a few minutes.
That means a reasonably short queue, that should only be half an hour, is in fact a two hour queue.
We checked as we got on the ride...two hours later, and we were on the same train as the people at the back of the queue when we set up the pass for the ride.
Any paid queuejump system makes the main queue slow down from the first user, I just can't see it any other way.

One bit of advice Red Ball...do Blackpool instead, stay at the Big Blue, and get a 50% reduction on whichever speedypass takes your fancy, it works out far cheaper than Towers, and you get to play on the beach as the sun goes down for free!
 
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Don't know Ian, sorry...think shakey has used it, perhaps he can confirm.
Heard a few people say that when they priced everything up, the best overall package was to stay at Big Blue, if you are getting the VIP passes...as it works out as cheap as staying at a good quality b&b.
 
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