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Was Nemesis a fluke?

A

Altonadvocate1

TS Member
Nemesis... it's amazing in just about every conceivable way. I love it and I think we're bloody lucky to have it...

But, it's been 22 years, yet despite all the improvements and innovations in technology and sizeable increases in investments, it still remains for many, myself included THE best coaster at Towers and one of the best, if not the best coaster in the world.

So what makes it so great. For me it's the following.

The increase in acceleration and intensity throughout the ride that builds from the top of the lift hill to the end rather than petering out after the first drop as most coasters do.

The sheer intensity of the helix.

The close interaction with the pit in which it is built that enhances the sensation of speed.

The incredidible quality of the ride hardware.

The layout which avoids repetition throughout.

The brief respite from the intensity in the stall turn.

The surprise inversion over the station near the end.

The imposing music which I thought was an original composition until I heard the Mars suite in Holsts, The Planets (YouTube it, it's so obvious when you hear it).

AND NEMESIS DEFIES CONVENTION IN SO MANY WAYS.

The station is halfway between the highest and lowest points.

It is built in a huge pit.

It was the second B and M inverted coaster.

It relies on neither height nor length to achieve its incredible intensity.

YET 22 YEARS LATER, NOBODY CAN BETTER IT. WHY IS THIS?

Huge credit must go to the engineers B and M, creators John Warley and Warner Stengel, the build team and everyone involved.

Clearly a huge amount of talent, passion, investment, imagination and risk went into creating Nemmy... but these people are still around and seem unable to repeat the feat.

So Nemesis... was she a fluke? And can we EVER expect a better coaster at towers?
 
Altonadvocate1 said:
Nemesis... it's amazing in just about every conceivable way. I love it and I think we're bloody lucky to have it...

But, it's been 22 years, yet despite all the improvements and innovations in technology and sizeable increases in investments, it still remains for many, myself included THE best coaster at Towers and one of the best, if not the best coaster in the world.

So what makes it so great. For me it's the following.

The increase in acceleration and intensity throughout the ride that builds from the top of the lift hill to the end rather than petering out after the first drop as most coasters do.

The sheer intensity of the helix.

The close interaction with the pit in which it is built that enhances the sensation of speed.

The incredidible quality of the ride hardware.

The layout which avoids repetition throughout.

The surprise inversion over the station near the end.

The imposing music which I thought was an original composition until I heard the Mars suite in Holsts, The Planets (YouTube it, it's so obvious when you hear it).

AND NEMESIS DEFIES CONVENTION IN SO MANY WAYS.

The station is halfway between the highest and lowest points.

It is built in a huge pit.

It was the second B and M inverted coaster.

It relies on neither height nor length to achieve its incredible intensity.

YET 22 YEARS LATER, NOBODY CAN BETTER IT. WHY IS THIS?

Huge credit must go to the engineers B and M, creators John Warley and Warner Stengel, the build team and everyone involved.

Clearly a huge amount of talent, passion, investment, imagination and risk went into creating Nemmy... but these people are still around and seem unable to repeat the feat.

So Nemesis... was she a fluke?
Click to expand...

Sorry to nitpick, but it was the second one built. Ones built before were Batman at Great America and Great Adventure and Flight Deck at the other Great America :p

To answer the original question though, was she a fluke? In my opinion, no. John Wardley wanted to built a great ride into an immersive environment, but he had to work his way around the one massive obstacle in the tree line limit, what we got as a result was an low to ground layout which provided for an intense ride. If you were to compare to other B&M inverts that were built, they didn't have such strict restrictions, not to mention a lot of them were in American parks where they don't usually bother theming their coasters to the level of Nemesis.

And was it a risk? Well this came during Alton's transitional period where it was turning into a proper theme park, and they needed a new headline coaster, with the cost being £10 Million in 1994, it was a huge investment and obviously it paid off. Most people in 1994 had never seen a coaster like it before, which I think contributed to its success.

It's definitely one of the best B&M inverts out there, although in recent years rides like Oz'Iris at Parc Asterix have come pretty close to it.
 
I bow to your greater knowledge on the build number so thanks.

Still don't understand though why after 22 years and all the improvements in technology, investment and ride hardware non of the very talented people at Towers can repeat the feat.

I'm starting to think that in 1994, they caught lighting in a bottle.
 
Not sure it was a fluke as such, but there has to be a reason that rides haven't really gone near the levels of intensity since. The helix is really something in terms of how fast a train goes through such a change in direction.
 
There are seminal moments in history across all areas, stunning creations, where creative minds, timing, technology, will, desire, and determination come together in an almost Holy union.

No, it wasn't a "fluke".

It was, at the time, great people coming together to make something unbelievable.

Also, it's unfair on Oblivion to call it a Fluke - Nemesis is INCREDIBLE, but Oblivion also maintains what it desired to create, that imposing fear factor that still to this day intimidates like no other ride I've seen.

There is literally NO other coaster which after riding so many times STILL makes me nervous, and it's still the most creative and inventive dive coaster in the world.

Then, there's Haunted House, which whilst not maintaining it's image for many reasons (technology moves on arguably in a more destructive way due to the effects), which was also utterly brilliant.

Hex? Also, incredible even though I hate it lol!

So no, it was no fluke.

It was just designed by a group of people who put their collective desires together.

What we need, is the next generation of these same people, but they wont likely end up at Towers, mostly due to how Merlin now function.

PS.

Helix.
 
I think a lot of it comes from the situation - the trench makes it a wonderful ride and the fact there's no real first drop. Unlike the generic layouts of Batman at Six Flags, Nemesis is the grand-daddy of them all.

The audio is merely a soundalike of Holst's The Bringer of War - as was the Emperor's March from Star Wars and so many other pieces of music of that ilk.

The fact the ride is still here after 22 years is a true testament to its longevity, brilliance and thrill factor. No other B&M Invert offers that helix moment or layout!

We're very lucky indeed!
 
I agree with TheMan that it can't possibly be a fluke as the same creative minds delivered exactly what they set out to with Oblivion as well, so lightning doesn't strike twice - this was intended and not a fluke.

In Oblivions case, it no longer has the steepest, tallest, fastest or most intense drop. And all it is, IS the drop, nothing more. Technically other dive coasters are better due to being longer, inversions, splash downs, drops twice the size etc. However they only add 10% extra thrill for over twice the price and three or four times the land mass. Both Nemesis and Oblivion were massive investments for the park that are great Because of the environmental restrictions, not despite them.

With no height restrictions, Oblivion would not have had the hole and, thus, in my opinion, would just be a dive coaster that would look silly up to rides like Sheikra etc. Nemesis would not have its pit and would just be another Batman or inferno and loose so much of its intensity.

My second point would center around the type of coaster itself. Riding Inferno just before close season last year, up against Thorpes far newer attractions, I found myself drawn back to it no less than 4 times! That's because a B&M inverter still remains one of the finest coaster models in the world. They don't need launches, height, or land mass to create the intensity and a thrilling experience that they do. They've managed to create a comfortable, smooth and versatile inverted roller coaster design and once you have that, no amount of technology or gimmicks can change the laws of physics so that's why it's been hard to better.

Nemesis is the perfect storm. The ingredients of height restrictions, good roller coaster design, talented people, high long term investment, and a beautiful setting are what created it.

Could it be bettered at AT? Yes it could in my opinion if the appetite is right for it
 
America, in true American style, keep going for bigger, higher, faster etc. That's something we can't do in the Uk, especially in Alton Towers. That's why Nemesis won't be beaten, why would a US park spend millions to dig a rocky pit and cram it full of as much twisted B&M track as possible? They wouldn't. Limitations spark creativity.
 
Certainly no fluke, we're not talking about a football team winning a cup final here. Nemesis is a piece of designing and engineering genius, a fantastic ride.

It's difficult to better something so great, I was watching an interview with Wardley recently where he mentioned that B+M see it as one of their best works thus far.

I'd argue that Oblivion and AIR are up there in their own ways as well, although I do prefer Nenesis.
 
35546123001_3479459956001_WertThumb.jpg


Who doesn't love this theming?! ;-)
 
It isn't a fluke, it's just the fact the budget wasn't spent on developing a worlds first element, a group of people that came up with the storyline, the creativity of haveing the job of fitting it in below tree height, the details around it, the best quality manufacturer at the peak of their time and the fact they had no problems with making the ride more compact. If you look at pretty much all B&Ms in between the early 1990's and 2005, they were usually packed with intensity, Nemesis is the best example and it's just the right length for what it is, very intense, whereas if you look at the newer B&Ms they aren't as intense, and they are more drawn out.

The more intense coasters nowadays are made by Intamin and not many other companies come close to Intamin for intensity apart from possibly gerstlauers, but the problem with Intamin and gerstlauers is they are quite often uncomfortable and rough, and the OTSRs on some aren't good for the ride (Rita, Kingda Ka etc.) Since Maverick has had its restraints changed I've heard much better reports, and I think the reason we haven't seen a ride as good as nemesis (although in my opinion the smiler is equal) is because of the combination of story, layout, creativity, intensity and comfort,which are all the things which lead to a class coaster (although on some ill let story off). Layout and creativity are the two most important, then intensity, comfort and theming/story/ (different coasters have differing orders though). If we compare the coasters at Alton all of them have some, but there is only really 2 which have all

Nemesis and the smiler
Nemesis has all of these, which I think it is the best, the smiler in my opinion has all, apart from at some moments (last 3 inversions) are quite rough and that's the only problem although I do find nemesis' last inversion a bit jolty.

Air
Air has got the creativity, comfort pretty much top quality, the layout is good, but in terms of Theming/story it lacks a bit (all could change with galactica though!) and it could have been up there for theming if it followed through with plans. It's not very intense but that's not major on air as it is meant to fit in and it does that perfectly but I prefer fast paced and well themed coaster.

13 and mine train
They both pull off theming, both comfortable, both creative. Mine train pulls off a decent layout for what it is in its area but if it wasn't as interactive with Rapids and off ride then it would be average. Thirteen however doesn't has the worst layout of the secret weapons and mine train. Mine train is a family coaster, so obviously not intense and it is what it is, for everyone so it'll generally be reasonably slow and not that intense. Thirteen isn't exactly intense or thrilling either, apart from indoor and backwards section which isn't that much of the ride, although it is the highlight.

Rita and spinball
Rita has the least of everything, it has intensity, and it has a slight bit of theming now, although it isn't very creative, hasn't got a very good layout and is not comfortable, spinball is the same apart from layout is ok, and theming isn't so good.

Oblivion
Oblivion has comfort, creativity, intensity and theming. It has a good layout for what it is, but it is very short, it suits the ride however and it could have another element although too much wouldn't really feel like oblivion as what it is meant to be, It is let down on track length, but then it is also the best track length, it's just the walk up the hill for it again and again. (Alton please redesign the queue to make pit shorter and add extensions if needed ;))

Obviously I'm not going to put octonauts on here for obvious reasons, but the other thing which is a major factor is throughput which is pretty good on everything but Rita and Sonic. If Alton wanted a coaster as good as Nemesis and The Smiler, then it would need good throughput, a intense layout, theming and atmosphere, comfort and pretty much everything those two have but better. (Which would be near impossible! :p) It could be done, but it would most likely be very expensive!

(Also all the above is what I think and what I can tell from the general opinions of the rides, and the major things which go into designing a world class coaster!)
 
Great answers everyone. This thread really shows the passion this forum has for the existing attractions, for the patk itself and our hopes for the future. There has been so much negative posting recently, most of it justified, but it is clear we love Nemmy and AT.

I agree that Nemesis was the perfect storm where everything came together just right and that all of Towers coasters show elements of brilliance, with Rita being the only one that's never done it for me. I'm going to add Holst as a rarely credited hero of what makes her so great.

It's absolutey true that the comfort factor is right up their at the top of the list and the B and M coasters are hard to beat for this.

Blivvy, is a coaster that does what it says on the tin and I love it. So many elements come together to create a feeling of intimidation no matter how many times you ride it. I also love standing at the bottom of the drop looking straight up as a train comes over. Pretty scary even without being on the ride. I'd never want to insult Blivvy. All true coaster fans know that roller coasters are living, breathing, sentient entities with feelings and personalities.

Àir really does give the feeling of flight which I's what JW set out to do. It isn't intense, but it is a different and memorable experience. I'm now warming to the idea that Galactica may enhance it rather than detract from it.

When I first rode 13, I was disappointed, probably due to the OTT marketing. It is clear that it was built for the family thrill demographic, but marked to the thrill demographic. I came off disappointed, but I was wrong and it has grown on me with every subsequent ride. In retrospect, it was just want Towers needed to bridge the gap between The Mine Train and the thrill coasters. It doesn't get my adrenaline going, but it is great fun and that's what Theme Parks are all about.

I love The Smiler in so many ways, as per my comments in the respective thread, but agree that the build quality and choice of manufacturer pails against the B and M''s.

It may me blasphemy, but Rita never did it for me, due to the lack of space, the bruises, the unimaginative layout, but I know that she has her fans and that's fine.

Anyway congratulations to all the people behind our great coaster collection. Looking forward to seeing what the next generation can do.
 
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Nemesis was the concord moment in theme park rides. The reason we have not seen anything near it since is all the required factors has not come together in the same way.
 
As much as I hate to say it, the answer is YES - Nemesis was a total fluke. Through a combination of exceptional circumstances, exceptional minds, at an exceptional point in time, everything just came together in the right way.

Oblivion deserves it's own rightful place in history, but it's no Nemesis or even a proper rollercoaster in my opinion. I think the reason why Oblivion is held in such high esteem is because of the huge stir Nemesis caused, it was like all eyes were on Towers to see what they were going to come up with next. That in itself created an even bigger buzz at the time. Plus I suppose it deserves respect for being a true world's first.

Merlin/Tussauds have tried (and failed) to recreate the magic of Nemesis over the years, not just at Towers but at their other parks. It's all a bit too forced, and doesn't feel like they ever just wanted to create a good ride - which seemed to be the basis of Nemesis. The Smiler did come pretty close, but it just isn't good enough. At the end of the day it's an unsightly mess of black steel sitting in a square concrete pit, with a theme and backstory that is also another absolute mess of random things, making no sense whatsoever to the average person. Then there's the ride itself, not bad, it's mildly entertaining, but it doesn't feel like it takes you on an adventure of any sort. The speed and intensity of Nemesis is missing from it.
 
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