venny
TS Member
Just after they refurbed the upstairs too. More superb Pleasure Beach planning.
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What do UK Theme Parks do better then their European competitors?
- Thread starter pjanvil
- Start date
Just after they refurbed the upstairs too. More superb Pleasure Beach planning.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
I agree with @Enter Valhalla regarding Chessington having improved, from what I’ve seen of the park this past decade.
As much as “Tussauds good, Merlin bad” is the argument often thrown around in these parts, I’d argue that Merlin’s ownership has actually been largely beneficial to Chessington compared to the Tussauds years that preceded it, particularly in recent years.
I know this will be an extremely unpopular opinion, but hear me out for a second.
I get the impression that Chessington was largely neglected by Tussauds after the initial flurry of excitement starting with the conversion to CWOA and ending with Vampire/Transylvania, and a dagger was arguably put through its heart by Tussauds as soon as they purchased Alton Towers in 1990.
After Vampire, it took them 5 years to build another semi-major ride, and even that was a flat ride that would have been a minor addition to fill an off-year at somewhere like Alton Towers. After that… Rattlesnake in 1998, which was an off-the-shelf coaster that would also have been a minor addition at Alton Towers. Samurai in 1999, Beanoland in 2000 and Dragon’s Fury in 2004 would also have been minor additions at Alton Towers, and other than the odd retheme or minor flat ride here and there, I can’t really think of much else Tussauds built at Chessington during the post-Alton Towers era.
In this timeframe, the park’s theming was largely neglected, and by the end of the Tussauds era, so much of the park was decaying and crumbling away that Tussauds actually considered selling Chessington to a new owner because they didn’t want to pay the huge price to revitalise the park. This plan was scrapped due to the Merlin buyout in 2007, but it does put into perspective quite how neglected the park seemingly was by Tussauds.
Now I won’t pretend that Merlin were god’s gift to Chessington by any means, or that Chessington was exactly a hive of investment into new attractions after they took over, but I think they were dealt quite a tough hand when they initially took over Chessington, and I’m not sure that the lack of new major attractions compared to what some would like is entirely Merlin’s fault.
Due to the state of the theming, a lot of money had to be spent on retheming and revitalising large parts of the park; in the earlier Merlin years, I seem to remember hearing that sums going well into 7 figures (possibly even touching 8 figures at times) were being spent purely on refurbishment of attractions neglected by Tussauds. The quality of these refurbishments is up for debate, but regardless, that is still a lot of money being spent on the park, even if it didn’t result in new major attractions. Even leading up to now, a lot of Merlin’s money has had to be spent on either rejuvenating or replacing old, decayed attractions neglected by Tussauds (e.g. Land of the Tiger rejuvenating Dragon Falls/Mystic East, Croc Drop replacing Rameses Revenge, Blue Barnacle replacing Black Buccaneer). And 15 years on from them taking over, this does seem to be working; most of the park now seems to be looking fresher and more loved from what I’ve seen.
And Merlin has invested into some more major CAPEX projects compared to what Tussauds built. Say what you like about ZUFARI, but at £8m, that must have been the most significant investment into a Chessington attraction since Vampire, and I’d wager that the new B&M coaster and themed land they’re building probably outweighs the cost of anything built by Tussauds post-Vampire quite considerably, even if the ride will not be the world’s biggest or most elaborate B&M coaster.
TL;DR: While Merlin’s treatment of Chessington has not been perfect, I’d argue that they have been a fair improvement on Tussauds post-1990, as unlike Tussauds, they’ve spent a lot on refurbishments and upkeep while also integrating some major CAPEX projects in there too.
This post was a lot longer than I was anticipating when I started writing…
As much as “Tussauds good, Merlin bad” is the argument often thrown around in these parts, I’d argue that Merlin’s ownership has actually been largely beneficial to Chessington compared to the Tussauds years that preceded it, particularly in recent years.
I know this will be an extremely unpopular opinion, but hear me out for a second.
I get the impression that Chessington was largely neglected by Tussauds after the initial flurry of excitement starting with the conversion to CWOA and ending with Vampire/Transylvania, and a dagger was arguably put through its heart by Tussauds as soon as they purchased Alton Towers in 1990.
After Vampire, it took them 5 years to build another semi-major ride, and even that was a flat ride that would have been a minor addition to fill an off-year at somewhere like Alton Towers. After that… Rattlesnake in 1998, which was an off-the-shelf coaster that would also have been a minor addition at Alton Towers. Samurai in 1999, Beanoland in 2000 and Dragon’s Fury in 2004 would also have been minor additions at Alton Towers, and other than the odd retheme or minor flat ride here and there, I can’t really think of much else Tussauds built at Chessington during the post-Alton Towers era.
In this timeframe, the park’s theming was largely neglected, and by the end of the Tussauds era, so much of the park was decaying and crumbling away that Tussauds actually considered selling Chessington to a new owner because they didn’t want to pay the huge price to revitalise the park. This plan was scrapped due to the Merlin buyout in 2007, but it does put into perspective quite how neglected the park seemingly was by Tussauds.
Now I won’t pretend that Merlin were god’s gift to Chessington by any means, or that Chessington was exactly a hive of investment into new attractions after they took over, but I think they were dealt quite a tough hand when they initially took over Chessington, and I’m not sure that the lack of new major attractions compared to what some would like is entirely Merlin’s fault.
Due to the state of the theming, a lot of money had to be spent on retheming and revitalising large parts of the park; in the earlier Merlin years, I seem to remember hearing that sums going well into 7 figures (possibly even touching 8 figures at times) were being spent purely on refurbishment of attractions neglected by Tussauds. The quality of these refurbishments is up for debate, but regardless, that is still a lot of money being spent on the park, even if it didn’t result in new major attractions. Even leading up to now, a lot of Merlin’s money has had to be spent on either rejuvenating or replacing old, decayed attractions neglected by Tussauds (e.g. Land of the Tiger rejuvenating Dragon Falls/Mystic East, Croc Drop replacing Rameses Revenge, Blue Barnacle replacing Black Buccaneer). And 15 years on from them taking over, this does seem to be working; most of the park now seems to be looking fresher and more loved from what I’ve seen.
And Merlin has invested into some more major CAPEX projects compared to what Tussauds built. Say what you like about ZUFARI, but at £8m, that must have been the most significant investment into a Chessington attraction since Vampire, and I’d wager that the new B&M coaster and themed land they’re building probably outweighs the cost of anything built by Tussauds post-Vampire quite considerably, even if the ride will not be the world’s biggest or most elaborate B&M coaster.
TL;DR: While Merlin’s treatment of Chessington has not been perfect, I’d argue that they have been a fair improvement on Tussauds post-1990, as unlike Tussauds, they’ve spent a lot on refurbishments and upkeep while also integrating some major CAPEX projects in there too.
This post was a lot longer than I was anticipating when I started writing…
They also converted Fifth Dimension into Terror Tomb in 1994. I didn’t ever ride Fifth Dimension, but as far as re-themes go, it was a much higher quality re-theme than some of their more recent ones. The only thing that was really kept was the building and the ride system. All the theming was changed. It was all 3D, sophisticated animatronics etc. With the possible exceptions of Hex and Valhalla, I don’t think the UK has any dark rides now with that combination of scale and quality (although Wallace and Gromits Thrill O Matic probably has the quality).
Rameses obviously followed Terror Tomb, and went well with it to create a new area. I do agree that Rameses was more of a major ride for Chessington, while Ripsaw was more of a filler at Alton Towers. But it was well presented and digging the pit to put it in must have made it a bigger investment.
There was a smattering of smaller attractions in this period, like the Action Man Academy and Sea Storm. Some of these rides would have been more exciting when they were new, than they feel now. You could also argue that for the time Mack and Huss were premium manufacturers, whereas recent flat rides have come from SBF Visa and Zamperla, which are budgets manufacturers. It was also a period when the zoo was modernised, with larger animals that are hard to keep in the space available being moved out, and new smaller attractions like Creepy Caves being created.
Whilst you could argue that none of the rides were individually really impressive (with the possible exception of Terror Tomb), they did go for high end manufacturers, and what they did was high quality. There was a clear vision for the park, with less themed areas being replaced with higher themed areas, and larger animal enclosures being replaced with rides, and other parts of the zoo being modernised with things like Creepy Caves and Trail of the Kings. It was at least an era when the park was clearly getting better, even if Alton Towers was developing faster.
Rameses obviously followed Terror Tomb, and went well with it to create a new area. I do agree that Rameses was more of a major ride for Chessington, while Ripsaw was more of a filler at Alton Towers. But it was well presented and digging the pit to put it in must have made it a bigger investment.
There was a smattering of smaller attractions in this period, like the Action Man Academy and Sea Storm. Some of these rides would have been more exciting when they were new, than they feel now. You could also argue that for the time Mack and Huss were premium manufacturers, whereas recent flat rides have come from SBF Visa and Zamperla, which are budgets manufacturers. It was also a period when the zoo was modernised, with larger animals that are hard to keep in the space available being moved out, and new smaller attractions like Creepy Caves being created.
Whilst you could argue that none of the rides were individually really impressive (with the possible exception of Terror Tomb), they did go for high end manufacturers, and what they did was high quality. There was a clear vision for the park, with less themed areas being replaced with higher themed areas, and larger animal enclosures being replaced with rides, and other parts of the zoo being modernised with things like Creepy Caves and Trail of the Kings. It was at least an era when the park was clearly getting better, even if Alton Towers was developing faster.
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jon81uk
TS Member
I disagree, Chessington removed the rotting mine train rockwork and replaced it with a scorpion statue and some flat scenery.
Rainforest is really just another way they managed to use some second hand rides with some bits and pieces around them.
The only main change investment was Amazu and I don’t think it significantly made up for most of the monkey and bird enclosures being replaced with a hotel.
AT86
TS Member
I think the rot really set in at Chessington when Tussauds purchased Thorpe in 1998. The investment not only in new rides but in maintenance seemed to drastically reduce as the money was diverted to the new park in town down the road.
Theming was left to rot and was often just pulled down once it got so bad it was unsafe, who remembers the significant rock work around the Dragon Falls lift hill that was pulled down in the early 2000s for example?
By the time Merlin took over it was in a bad way and wasn’t really addressed in any noticeable way until the Tomb Blaster incident in 2012.
The park is seemingly in a better shape now than it was back then, but still not close to the level of the early/mid 90s.
In many ways Merlin and Tussauds aren’t really that different in corporate culture and there are a lot of people within Merlin today that also worked at Tussauds, so it wasn’t a ‘big bang’ change all of a sudden when they took over.
Theming was left to rot and was often just pulled down once it got so bad it was unsafe, who remembers the significant rock work around the Dragon Falls lift hill that was pulled down in the early 2000s for example?
By the time Merlin took over it was in a bad way and wasn’t really addressed in any noticeable way until the Tomb Blaster incident in 2012.
The park is seemingly in a better shape now than it was back then, but still not close to the level of the early/mid 90s.
In many ways Merlin and Tussauds aren’t really that different in corporate culture and there are a lot of people within Merlin today that also worked at Tussauds, so it wasn’t a ‘big bang’ change all of a sudden when they took over.
Poisson
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- The Giant Squid
Camel Creek has seen a big uptick in investment since being split from the Crealy brand.
Yay obscure parks.
Thameslink Rail
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- The Smiler
And Camel Creek is owned by none other than John Broome of Alton Towers' fame!
Themeparksandy1981
TS Member
Save having to do another new topic but with the Blackpool discussion I did a few price guides
This is based on a family of 4 on the 6th August.
Blackpool £144
Alton Towers £168 but with 2 for 1 vouchers £84
Drayton Manor £116
Chessington £156 2 for 1 £78
Paulton’s park £155
Now European park prices
Disneyland Paris £414
Europa Park £194.16
Phantasialand £174.82
Efteling €184
PortAventura €204
So based on theses prices on entrance tickets only none of the European parks come close to the merlin 2-1 deals but even without them none our cheaper than the uk prices so on price for me uk parks wins.
But for theming Phantasialand and Efteling is a much better park than what we can offer.
This is based on a family of 4 on the 6th August.
Blackpool £144
Alton Towers £168 but with 2 for 1 vouchers £84
Drayton Manor £116
Chessington £156 2 for 1 £78
Paulton’s park £155
Now European park prices
Disneyland Paris £414
Europa Park £194.16
Phantasialand £174.82
Efteling €184
PortAventura €204
So based on theses prices on entrance tickets only none of the European parks come close to the merlin 2-1 deals but even without them none our cheaper than the uk prices so on price for me uk parks wins.
But for theming Phantasialand and Efteling is a much better park than what we can offer.
jon81uk
TS Member
You’ve got the Merlin 2for1 prices wrong. The 2for1 is based on the gate price of £65, not the online price. So it’s £130 for four with a 2for1 at Alton Towers or £114 at Chessington.
So still too cheap compared to the competition but not as cheap as you originally listed.
We’ve had the discussion before on these forums but the vouchers devalue the entire UK theme park industry. There are often people on deals websites looks for vouchers for Drayton, Paultons, Blackpool and Flamingoland but they don’t really discount like the Merlin parks do. Therefore often people will not go to Paultons for example as Chessington is £40 cheaper with a 2for1 despite the online price being similar.
Most of the UK parks have set their online price at a fair amount I think, Blackpool is probably a bit high. Would be far better if Merlin just stuck to their fair online price and got rid of the vouchers.
So still too cheap compared to the competition but not as cheap as you originally listed.
We’ve had the discussion before on these forums but the vouchers devalue the entire UK theme park industry. There are often people on deals websites looks for vouchers for Drayton, Paultons, Blackpool and Flamingoland but they don’t really discount like the Merlin parks do. Therefore often people will not go to Paultons for example as Chessington is £40 cheaper with a 2for1 despite the online price being similar.
Most of the UK parks have set their online price at a fair amount I think, Blackpool is probably a bit high. Would be far better if Merlin just stuck to their fair online price and got rid of the vouchers.
Themeparksandy1981
TS Member
Thanks for that goes to show how often I paid to get into a theme park as usually only go with the sun free tickets but thought as you had to pre book tickets anyway is there a code you put in on the website.
Matt.GC
TS Member
You end up paying the price for bargain basement day tickets at Merlin parks with a lower quality park and higher accommodation prices to compensate. When I went to PL in May, an overnight stay in Motamba and 2 days on park was far cheaper than 2 days at Alton staying in ATH on the same dates.
jon81uk
TS Member
Yes the Kellogg’s boxes have a code inside to book the 2for1, but the pricing is based on the gate price.
Enter Valhalla
TS Member
The 2 for 1 business model has been around since long before Merlin.
Tussauds were doing it for years, and even pre-2008 (Merlin takeover), only about 10% of Alton Towers visitors were paying full price.
They’re in way too deep now for it to change, as this would be an entire change of business strategy. I’d thought that covid and the requirement to pre-book might have changed things a bit, but if even that couldn’t change things, then nothing will. The 2 for 1s are here to stay.
Tussauds were doing it for years, and even pre-2008 (Merlin takeover), only about 10% of Alton Towers visitors were paying full price.
They’re in way too deep now for it to change, as this would be an entire change of business strategy. I’d thought that covid and the requirement to pre-book might have changed things a bit, but if even that couldn’t change things, then nothing will. The 2 for 1s are here to stay.
Online bookings, 2 for 1s and cheap annual passes bring the price down. In some ways it is a problem for the UK industry, particularly as the price of the smaller parks are compared to the larger parks, so the price of visiting a smaller park is partly dictated by the cost of the larger parks. Although Paultons have shown that you can resist the discount model. The discount model does put pressure on parks either to cut costs, which can be unsustainable, or to claw money back through other ways.
There are two other problems though. The first is that in the UK theme parks are competing with a lot of attractions that are either publicly funded, or charities with a lot of volunteers. These don’t normally offer the same experience as a theme park, but theme parks do have a lot of competition in the UK. To an extent theme parks are competing with these attractions too.
The other problem, which I’d say is much bigger than the first, is the ‘squeezed middle’ and this dwindling middle class. You can stop the discounting, but theme parks are increasingly having to appeal to working class people. Even before the current cost of living crisis, many of this demographic were working in more precarious jobs, more likely to be on a zero hour contract, often with their rent going up far quicker than their wage. You can change the pricing structure, but if a lot of your visitors are quite poor, one way or another you either have to hold down your prices, or price a lot of visitors out the market.
There are two other problems though. The first is that in the UK theme parks are competing with a lot of attractions that are either publicly funded, or charities with a lot of volunteers. These don’t normally offer the same experience as a theme park, but theme parks do have a lot of competition in the UK. To an extent theme parks are competing with these attractions too.
The other problem, which I’d say is much bigger than the first, is the ‘squeezed middle’ and this dwindling middle class. You can stop the discounting, but theme parks are increasingly having to appeal to working class people. Even before the current cost of living crisis, many of this demographic were working in more precarious jobs, more likely to be on a zero hour contract, often with their rent going up far quicker than their wage. You can change the pricing structure, but if a lot of your visitors are quite poor, one way or another you either have to hold down your prices, or price a lot of visitors out the market.
jon81uk
TS Member
But what annoys me nowadays with them its you aren't getting in half price, its £5-10 off. The gate price is set artificially high to get the 2for1 at the right price. Whereas in reality the online price is the right price and the 2for1 price is only £5-10 cheaper than online.
But people think its a bigger bargain as they've been told its half price, they then assume all the other theme parks not offering half price entry are really expensive, when actually all the parks are within about £10-15 of each other (£27-£42) but guests assume Chessington is a better deal than Paulton because its half price.
Themeparksandy1981
TS Member
The biggest difference now is that nearly every park charges 2 prices now.
4+ Or 2-3 with just Paulton’s really Charging from a basic height.
4+ Or 2-3 with just Paulton’s really Charging from a basic height.
QTXAdsy
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Black Hole
Actually, there is something we do better that's not exactly down to the theme parks....the coaster community we have and the friends we have made in sharing many of our highs and lows of how we feel about the state of the UK theme park industry in this country. Would we have been the same if all was good with our parks?
I know this does sound sappy and maybe too stupid for many but our community is welcoming, can't comment if you have the same with coaster enthusiasts in places such as France, Germany, Spain etc as compared to us, they probably have nothing to complain about though there probably is a few things but nowhere near as bad as us and for good reason.
Honestly without the community we in the UK have, I probably don't know where I'd be without you guys. Wouldn't be able to share some of my proposals such as alternative history of Alton Towers, let my frustrations out on the trouble of being an enthusiast in Scotland, finding out about EP and other places that honestly I would have never had know, let one visit, if not for the UK coaster community that all helps to broaden my horizons.
Honestly, it is the friends you make on a journey that in some ways is better than getting to where you want to go and the latter is the day the UK theme park industry returns to a stronger position. Sounds sappy? Perhaps, but I just want to be reflective for once.
I know this does sound sappy and maybe too stupid for many but our community is welcoming, can't comment if you have the same with coaster enthusiasts in places such as France, Germany, Spain etc as compared to us, they probably have nothing to complain about though there probably is a few things but nowhere near as bad as us and for good reason.
Honestly without the community we in the UK have, I probably don't know where I'd be without you guys. Wouldn't be able to share some of my proposals such as alternative history of Alton Towers, let my frustrations out on the trouble of being an enthusiast in Scotland, finding out about EP and other places that honestly I would have never had know, let one visit, if not for the UK coaster community that all helps to broaden my horizons.
Honestly, it is the friends you make on a journey that in some ways is better than getting to where you want to go and the latter is the day the UK theme park industry returns to a stronger position. Sounds sappy? Perhaps, but I just want to be reflective for once.