White Elephants

[Rick]

Again, I can't relate between the house that I spend my hard earned cashing paying for, that we live in and a bridge that I spend 20 seconds walking across when boarding a coaster.

I enjoy parks that put zero effort into architecture as much or more than Alton. Cedar Point and the Six Flags parks are shrines to crummy metal buildings and cattle pens, but the rides are kick ass.

We don't have to agree. Everyone experiences the same parks in different ways, and that's all good

I'm arguing against the bridge! I'm well travelled @Plastic Person but I'm 'normal', honest .

 

[Benzin]

State of this...

All the reference is that they started off with an actually half good indoor queueline with all the screens and effects (like Smiler should've been), but then afterwards when the real build up to the experience should be at it's peak, a bland wide bridge full of queue jumpers shows that so much falls through the cracks if their design processes... It's not like the bridge even has the drop deliberately framed to build suspense...

Always one step forward, two steps back... Always good, never great... That sorta thing, not some ridiculous notion that the entire ride hinges on some bridge, just that the lack of forethought (because Merlin obviously wanted an indoor queue but didn't want to build a new building so reused the scaremaze tent (which also doesn't really fit into the techno style of the ride)) is usually where these rides fall down on...

Can we all at least agree that Zufari is the biggest embarrassment of design in the UK?

 

[ChristmasPud]

See I couldn't bare a car park theme park, and most steel looping coasters seem the same as every other after a while to me, if its all just different combinations of speed and inversions. Still fun, but not worth me travelling far, so yeah a difference of opinion definitely. However I can still appreciate what goes into designing a steel coaster and that, when designed really well, it can make a big difference.

And yet - nobody in masses are going to stand there and say "I wish this coaster was more this/that", they're just going to want it to loop 100 times aren't they? Even though they'd actually enjoy a better designed coaster much more.

They're not required to be an expert on coasters themselves, just like people are not required to know about design or architecture in order to enjoy it, they're just there to be thrilled & surprised by the end result. It's the same kind of principle.

I suppose if I had any say, I'd want there to be a good balance between great design where needs be, but not shy away from balls-to-the-wall thrills where theming would only get in the way.

Recently thought how Drayton Manor has Shockwave themed as some kind of random barn and it's totally inconsequential to the coaster - it could be a metal shed & be exactly the same ride. But had the whole area and layout been designed together as one interacting coaster experience, as in Nemesis, or at least create a build up, it would instantly improve Shockwave as a ride. (Along with not being a stand up coaster)

But yeah I walked the bridge to madness on this one, cor love a debate

Always good, never great... That sorta thing, not some ridiculous notion that the entire ride hinges on some bridge, just that the lack of forethought (because Merlin obviously wanted an indoor queue but didn't want to build a new building so reused the scaremaze tent (which also doesn't really fit into the techno style of the ride)) is usually where these rides fall down on...

Yes this is exactly the problem with Merlin's attitude to design I think, cheapening out and so it amounts to just a half-baked idea. And they were proud of Zufari and its wobbly bridge over the bins.

 

[Rick]

Can we all at least agree that Zufari is the biggest embarrassment of design in the UK?

Seemingly not if you're kids who are 5 and 7, who are captivated by animals ... if you're an enthusiast with an eye for design, maybe?

I shall not start another circus in fear of further inciting the wrath of @Plastic Person

 

[ChristmasPud]

I get what you mean but you're trying a bit hard now Zufari is one of the worst attractions at Chessington and unpopular to the point at which all staff were advised to tell guests that it existed, through all major ride PA systems in the summer of 2014 & 2015.

If it were designed better, it wouldn't be so awful. Perhaps if it were designed so those 5 -7 year olds could actually see the animals most the time or if they weren't in a patch of dirt. And if people could approach & interact with the ride area, it would have far more ridership. It's a bible of terrible design and its consequences.

In fact Chessington in the present day is a terrible crammed in, cheap place, you'd agree on that hopefully?

 

[John]

Don't forget terribly operated, arguably one of the park's bigger sins at the moment.

Going back to the original topic, it really is incredible how many recent additions at Alton Towers have been abject failures. I used to say about Thorpe that if they weren't adding a coaster they had no clue what they should be doing, but in all honesty it's just as bad at Towers if not worse;

2006 - Charlie: poorly received and downgraded on the park map from a family ride to a kids ride after 1 season
2006 - Driving School - possibly the last good non-coaster added?
2007 - A play area, path and mini golf. NEXT.
2008 - Mutiny Bay phase 1: a splash battle. Total waste of money as pretty much no-one rides it 90% of the time
2009 - Mutiny Bay phase 2: largely inoffensive
2010 - Th13teen: the last genuinely successful addition of any kind.
2011 - Spider crabs: they died.
2012 - N:ST and Ice Age. Both now closed. N:ST required far too many staff and poorly received. Biggest failure of recent times?
2013 - Smiler: a popular coaster, but beset by a multitude of problems. Somewhat ironic that the crash was entirely unrelated to any of the genuine issues with the ride.
2014 - CBeebies phase 1: generally OK, some issues with build quality
2015 - CBeebies phase 2: Octonauts. Inoffensive for a kiddy coaster, but needed major work after just 1 season due to poor build quality
2016 - Galactica: extra tech on a ride that already had frequent technical issues - what could go wrong?
2017 - Go Jetters: very, very unreliable.

 

[Rick]

Chessington certainly has problems in terms of operations, some rides are terribly operated.

As for Zufari - it's not perfect, I agree - but the kids love it. The 5 - 7 year old crowd were lapping it up on Saturday. It hit a 60 minute wait, as did Vampire and Dragon's Fury. People will wait for it, it seems.

 

[djtruefitt]

I can't really think of one aspect of Zufari that was designed, or implemented well. From the hidden away entrance area, to the cattle pen queue line, to the original pre show, loading and exiting procedure, the ride its self, and of course the finale..

 

[John]

Rides getting long waits at Chessington does not necessarily demonstrate popularity, just look at the likes of Tiny Truckers or Toadies which can both attract hour queues. Zufari, Fury, Vamprire and Tomb Blaster (amongst others) all seem to get far lower throughput than attractions of their stature should be capable of.

 

[ChristmasPud]

Somewhat ironic that the crash was entirely unrelated to any of the genuine issues with the ride.

Someone else might be able to add more reliable detail on this, and in no way were these things the sole or main reasons for the crash, but as I understand some of the ride's cost-cutting design flaws (or just bad decisions) did contribute..

The desperation to squeeze a record beating number of inversions into such an inadequately sized site - gave us an amazingly balmy layout but without any flexibility of momentum, leading to the regular possibility for trains to stall.

No properly designed access to bottom of the pit, due to last minute changes of plans (due to incorrect ground surveying). And very limited vehicle access to parts of the site in trying to squeeze in so much.

The intended model of the trains was to use lap bars, but were revised on request by Alton Towers operations (totally arbitrary, more safety theatre) to have OTS restraints which required heavier & relocated locking systems, again contributing to the valleying.

 

[Benzin]

Rides getting long waits at Chessington does not necessarily demonstrate popularity, just look at the likes of Tiny Truckers or Toadies which can both attract hour queues. Zufari, Fury, Vamprire and Tomb Blaster (amongst others) all seem to get far lower throughput than attractions of their stature should be capable of.

Truckers gets/got 200pph on a good day 10 years ago before it had Fastrack, I honestly dread to think how bad that queue is now...

Fury used to be 700-800pph, Vampire used to be over 1'000, Chessie simply cannot cope with the numbers in the same way Legoland can't due to so little throughput...

 

[Rick]

@Benzin - I do think that's a fair assessment, but I think the capacity problems are almost by design. Merlin want the park to be very much a cocktail of rides and animals and that has been reflected in the additions and investments. The problem, it seems - is that the public seemingly want rides, more than they want animals and the capacity will need to reflect that.

 

[Altonadvocate1]

As the original poster, I can now share my thoughts on this. The white elephant developments are real. Merlin often get poor value for money on their investments and despite their bulk buying power, parks such as Tayto and Paultons seem to get far more bang for their buck.

AT, you don't need to be clever for the sake of being clever. We don't need the next big thing such as VR.

What we do need are coasters for thrill seekers, families and kids, dark rides for all, at least one more huge water ride, ideally a fantastically themed flume, and a few flats to soak up the thills, with a little park entertainment that extends outside of cbeebies land.

The irony is that this probably wouldn't cost much more than the short term, SBNO, gimmicky attractions that gave been added recently (Smiler and Thirteen excluded as with a few reservations, I love both
).

 

[Tim]

@Benzin...The problem, it seems - is that the public seemingly want rides, more than they want animals and the capacity will need to reflect that.

In my mind this is the core of the problem. As much as we might want heavily detailed themed environments, most British guests just want an amusement park with lots of rides. It's a problem going back as far as Wardley. And I should note wanting amusement over story is not a bad thing, it just limits the diversity of different attractions.

In the late 80s/90s we got a taste of something different with parks like Chessington and Legoland going full Theme Park. But people demanded more rides and slowly we've lost the Theme aspects of these parks. Credit to Chesington the zoo holds onto the themed aspect, hence why its the only Merlin park I've visited in the last 3 years.

 

[Funcone]

Recently thought how Drayton Manor has Shockwave themed as some kind of random barn and it's totally inconsequential to the coaster - it could be a metal shed & be exactly the same ride. But had the whole area and layout been designed together as one interacting coaster experience, as in Nemesis, or at least create a build up, it would instantly improve Shockwave as a ride. (Along with not being a stand up coaster)

Just to drag things back a bit, as you may already know Shockwave's (admittedly sparse) theming did make more sense when it was new. Originally Action Park was a Wild West area. It was never Frontierland, but the rapids, Shockwave, Black Revolver (waltzer in the dark) and Klondike Gold Mine (Pinfari pepsi loop) all had a loose wild west theme. I don't think there was much back story to the area, but for where the park was at the time it did the job reasonably well. Action Park lost its way a bit as an area when they replaced Klondike with G Force. Having said that Shockwave's queue has always been subject to criticism with the enthusiasts.

 

[Benzin]

Shockwave's queue is hideous, though G-Force gives a good attempt of making it feel a better experience...

 

[Jb85]

Sub terra sums it all up for me. Cash in on the nemesis brand with a cheap ill thought out poorly executed labour intensive ride. Yeh that will work.

You know I am sure there are some people at AT and Chessington who come up with ideas that could be brilliant (take sub terra and zufari as they are mentioned in this thread) but are ruined by some merlin big wig looking to implement them as cheap as possible.

It all started with Duel.

 

[Rick]

......but are ruined by some merlin big wig looking to implement them as cheap as possible. It all started with Duel.

I'm not saying I agree - but if that's how you feel, then you are suggesting that this problem predates Merlin?

 

[Jb85]

I'm not saying I agree - but if that's how you feel, then you are suggesting that this problem predates Merlin?

Yes in a way.... it all started when profit became the key driver. Merlin have merely escalated this. I know businesses have shareholders to please but the parks were far better before they became corporate.

Family run parks are far better

 

[Rick]

@Jb85 Alton was run by a public company from 1990 - 2005 and from 2013 onwards (with an odd mix of shareholders inbetween).

Disney is a public company. That's not the problem, if you perceive there to be one.