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Would the world be a safer place if Hitler had won the war?
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TheMan
TS Member
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My suggestion as always, is if you are not enamored by the subject material, instead of attempting, with curious logic to say the least, to derail a thread of interest of someone else - try and actually create something, meaningful to you, that those interested can post upon.
Even at school, you are tasked with imagining alternative subjective realities based on certain different outcomes. It also a case in point, that WWII was not far away from being lost!
It is also noteworthy, that those seemingly against this topic, have totally ignored the fact that the technology they use everyday, has been derived from the advanced attitudes to development of the Nazi's.
They have had, and continue to this day to have, a decided influence upon humanities development. Though we may well have lived in more frightening times, we would also be living in far more occult and arguably technologically advanced times also.
Speculation on such a monumental point in history, is much debated - and with good reason, it is one of the most seminal moments in our recent history and is natural to debate.
The Nazi influence, in many aspects (thankfully not the tyrannical), is still prominent today.
Some of you clearly have an issue with this, because are avoiding this subject! There is an extent that which we can measure the influence certain aspects of Nazi German culture would have had on society... because we EXIST WITHIN IT!
Even at school, you are tasked with imagining alternative subjective realities based on certain different outcomes. It also a case in point, that WWII was not far away from being lost!
It is also noteworthy, that those seemingly against this topic, have totally ignored the fact that the technology they use everyday, has been derived from the advanced attitudes to development of the Nazi's.
They have had, and continue to this day to have, a decided influence upon humanities development. Though we may well have lived in more frightening times, we would also be living in far more occult and arguably technologically advanced times also.
Speculation on such a monumental point in history, is much debated - and with good reason, it is one of the most seminal moments in our recent history and is natural to debate.
The Nazi influence, in many aspects (thankfully not the tyrannical), is still prominent today.
Some of you clearly have an issue with this, because are avoiding this subject! There is an extent that which we can measure the influence certain aspects of Nazi German culture would have had on society... because we EXIST WITHIN IT!
Seriously Islander?
The reason all of those questions are equal to this ludicrous, outlandish and quite frankly idiotic question about a Nazi win in WW2 is that you cannot discuss them in any realm of reasonable discussion since there is no reason to believe that any answer you give is a logical or reasonable answer.
An unreasonable question is one which cannot have a reasoned evidenced answer.
Of course it's interesting to think about how the world is effected by historical events but I'm not gonna let people get away with making unsubstantiated claims. If Nazi's won the war, whose to say that their commitment to space technology wouldn't have us all living on the moon? Whose to say that a civil war didn't arise from within the German Empire which brought it down? Whose to say that the Germans wouldn't conquer Russia?
It's all conjecture. Pointless, useless, conjecture that goes no-where, does nothing and does not belong in an intellectual discussion about the cause and effects within history. Sure it's great fun if you want to construct your own fiction but the person who instigated this discussion was looking for a serious answer and therefore your unevidenced theories have no place in answering that question.
The reason all of those questions are equal to this ludicrous, outlandish and quite frankly idiotic question about a Nazi win in WW2 is that you cannot discuss them in any realm of reasonable discussion since there is no reason to believe that any answer you give is a logical or reasonable answer.
An unreasonable question is one which cannot have a reasoned evidenced answer.
Of course it's interesting to think about how the world is effected by historical events but I'm not gonna let people get away with making unsubstantiated claims. If Nazi's won the war, whose to say that their commitment to space technology wouldn't have us all living on the moon? Whose to say that a civil war didn't arise from within the German Empire which brought it down? Whose to say that the Germans wouldn't conquer Russia?
It's all conjecture. Pointless, useless, conjecture that goes no-where, does nothing and does not belong in an intellectual discussion about the cause and effects within history. Sure it's great fun if you want to construct your own fiction but the person who instigated this discussion was looking for a serious answer and therefore your unevidenced theories have no place in answering that question.
Ok ok guys, the main problem we would have, If Hitler one the war i think it would certainly depend when he started winning, would Steve Rodgers have met Howard Stark and help become one of the prime Soldiers to win the war against Hitler, the Nazis and the red skull.
Now what happens to these scientists? What happens to Howard Stark?
Now lets say Howard Stark survives the war, I can almost be sure he will have either lost his fortune or sold out mass fabricating weaponry for the Nazi's.
Now fast forward to modern day, And Stark has no money, his son Anthony will not have the funding and billions he does today. He would not have been able to continue his fathers trade of weaponry. This could also mean that the Iron Man project would never have been made as he would not have been kidnapped in Afghanistan. Hell, would the Afghanistan war be even on if Hitler won the war? If not the inspiration for the project would not have been sparked. No Iron Man.
If Howard Stark went on the Nazi side then we could well end up with a Nazi Iron Man in this age. Not good, in my honest opinion.
Without Tony Stark and the first Avenger Captain America, Nick Fury may not have been inspired the Avengers Initiative. And as this war on earth shouldn't affect the realm of Asgard, Thor will still get banished to earth and I would gues not much would change there. When Loki comes to earth to try and enslave the earth with the race of Chitauri, without the Avengers Thor may not be able to win this battle alone.
But I think everyone would rather be ruled by Loki God of mischief then Hitler...
Please don't delete this post, it took me a while to write, and it's relevent to how the world will be different... a fictitious universe, but a universe none the less!
Now what happens to these scientists? What happens to Howard Stark?
Now lets say Howard Stark survives the war, I can almost be sure he will have either lost his fortune or sold out mass fabricating weaponry for the Nazi's.
Now fast forward to modern day, And Stark has no money, his son Anthony will not have the funding and billions he does today. He would not have been able to continue his fathers trade of weaponry. This could also mean that the Iron Man project would never have been made as he would not have been kidnapped in Afghanistan. Hell, would the Afghanistan war be even on if Hitler won the war? If not the inspiration for the project would not have been sparked. No Iron Man.
If Howard Stark went on the Nazi side then we could well end up with a Nazi Iron Man in this age. Not good, in my honest opinion.
Without Tony Stark and the first Avenger Captain America, Nick Fury may not have been inspired the Avengers Initiative. And as this war on earth shouldn't affect the realm of Asgard, Thor will still get banished to earth and I would gues not much would change there. When Loki comes to earth to try and enslave the earth with the race of Chitauri, without the Avengers Thor may not be able to win this battle alone.
But I think everyone would rather be ruled by Loki God of mischief then Hitler...
Please don't delete this post, it took me a while to write, and it's relevent to how the world will be different... a fictitious universe, but a universe none the less!
Martin
TS Member
Surely Diogo's answer is better than "OH GOD NO!" or "TROLOLOLOLOL" like the rest of us did? At least he thought about the question.Meat Pie said:
Just because it's a silly question doesn't mean it can't be discussed, seriously, jokingly or tongue-in-cheek.
Unsubstantiated claims? It's a discussion about an alternate reality about Nazis on a coaster forum on the internet. The internet! We're not talking theoretical physics or politics here, and it's really just derailing the topic.
It's the INTERNET!
If you don't have a problem with Diogo inventing a whole history of the world following a Nazi win of WW2, then you have no understanding of the fragility of any state of being. A Nazi win would have changed the course of history so drastically, it's impossible and unlogical to predict what would follow.
The possibilities of an eventuality wrapped up in the alternate universe are entirely open because we cannot be sure exactly what would have happened, how people would have reacted or any of that simply by guessing.
To put it simply, there are too many variables.
Far too many assumptions have been made which is always wrong in the context of intellectual debate. A declaration must be followed by evidence.
And Diogo, I will not respond as such because the burden of proof that it would end up that way is on you since you are the one making the claim.
The possibilities of an eventuality wrapped up in the alternate universe are entirely open because we cannot be sure exactly what would have happened, how people would have reacted or any of that simply by guessing.
To put it simply, there are too many variables.
Far too many assumptions have been made which is always wrong in the context of intellectual debate. A declaration must be followed by evidence.
And Diogo, I will not respond as such because the burden of proof that it would end up that way is on you since you are the one making the claim.
BigDave
TS Member
Whilst this is a discussion board for people to discuss things, certain topics are best talked about off a forum and I think this is one of them. Simply saying "its freedom of speech" doesn't mean anything either. Your more than welcome to say it, just keep topics that are highly sensitive off the forums. Especially a forum that is set up for people who like themeparks and not to talk about Nazis/Hitler.
Dar
TS Member
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What's the point of a method of a free exchange of ideas if all that happens is that someone makes a post and someone else just sits there and pointedly just says "you're wrong, prove you're right" rather than provide a separate idea. It's pointless and unnecessary. A distinction needs to be made between debate and discussion.
Instead of arguing for pages and pages about a post, discuss a different point of view and compare flaws and similarities between them.
Look, I'll go first.
Diogo, you're post makes a bit of sense but I think that, like the British Empire and the like, any such "German Empire" wouldn't last very long and would just crumble under it's own weight leading a situation not unlike the real present day, except the allies would be the ones feeling guilty and licking wounds instead of Germany.
Instead of arguing for pages and pages about a post, discuss a different point of view and compare flaws and similarities between them.
Look, I'll go first.
Diogo, you're post makes a bit of sense but I think that, like the British Empire and the like, any such "German Empire" wouldn't last very long and would just crumble under it's own weight leading a situation not unlike the real present day, except the allies would be the ones feeling guilty and licking wounds instead of Germany.
Dave
TS Founding Member
I don't see how this is over-sensitive, no one is suggesting the situation would have been preferable nor saying Nazi policy was a great idea. It's just a debate based on conjecture of a revisionalist history. Academics look into these conjectures all the time, its not possible to bring up factual evidence but loads of realms of research is like that.
Not all academia is quantitative, this is the problem when those who are used to using scientific method enter into the realms of theoretical sociology. I'm not too comfortable in this topic area as I'm a scientist so I'm not going to get involved in the debate but I can see its a little bit of a wild card but not completely ridiculous.
Play nice
Not all academia is quantitative, this is the problem when those who are used to using scientific method enter into the realms of theoretical sociology. I'm not too comfortable in this topic area as I'm a scientist so I'm not going to get involved in the debate but I can see its a little bit of a wild card but not completely ridiculous.
Play nice
TheMan
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BigDave said:
No offense (genuinely) meant here Dave, but the Nazi's affect our daily lives.
If you don't think it belongs on a forum, you'd all better ditch Tapatalk - because without Moonlandings, you don't have mobile phones, and without the Nazi's rocket tech, you don't have moon landings.
Simples.
Really, it is that simple.
Whether that sits well with anyone is their own issue. If not. Don't have a mobile phone.
DiogoJ42
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A fair point Dar, no empire lasts forever. but it is not unreasonable to assume it would last at least a hundred years. The bigger an empire grows, the less opposition it faces...
... Then again, the thinner it stretches it's occupying forces. This could be a whole new question in itself: how long would a German empire have lasted?
... Then again, the thinner it stretches it's occupying forces. This could be a whole new question in itself: how long would a German empire have lasted?
Martin
TS Member
While I agree in principle, the Nazi Reich was in its early days, and after defeating Europe, and presumably America, it would have continued to go from strength to strength for some time. I cite the duration of the British and Roman empires, amongst others, as evidence for my claim that the German empire would still be going strong today, although depending on how well established it was in the 40s and 50s, it may be crumbling under itself or due to the Soviets, whom I suspect would have never been defeated and would still be the USSR for as long as the Nazis were in power, and possibly the Chinese, given sufficient growth in the Asian market, which may not have happened like it has without free market Capitalism in the west.Dar said: