Ah but you have to think of ease of installation.
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Not only that but people, particularly in groups, could walk over the pad at a time giving inaccurate readings
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I remember back in the good old days being handed a business card size thing that had a time written on it by the staff member at the entrance and was told to hand it to the batcher in the station, he then ran over to the booth and handed it to the op in there.
Again, every 15 minutes or something Disney ask a guest to take a card to work out how long they actually waited in standby queue (so FP merge automatically taken into account).If you recorded when someone enters the que, then when they exit. In the station for example. You would get an exact time each person has spent in the que, then calculate an average que time from that.
If you walked into a full que and was recorded by a system, maybe even something as simple as a pressure pad, the software would already know exactly how many people are in the que as it would have recorded them entering, when the 100th person to enter the que gets to the end, the system would know it is that exact person as 99 other people would have been recorded exiting the que. Thus giving a pretty exact time that specific person has been in the que for. You could then work out the average time spent from all the people in the que to give an approximate que time. T
The beauty and elegance of an algorithm like this is that along as you are just trying to give a que time for the main que. The merge point does not need to be monitored at all. As a very acurate que time can be given without monitoring it. You just need to monitor people entering the merge que.
Something like this would probably never be implemented but it is a good thought experiment, especially when you are a software engineer.
If you have the at app and Bluetooth enabled your tracking it.Disney have an electronic version of this where a NFC card is scanned at the start and end of the queue.
The Bluetooth system at AT is similar but I don’t expect there are that many devices actually connecting and reporting.
Thanks for sharing, how long ago was this out of interest?*blows dust off account, chokes, regains breath, and begins*
I can't speak for Alton Towers exactly, but I can speak for Thorpe Park, and at least give some insight in some of the things tried there to improve queue time accuracy.
Thorpe Park used to have a dedicated person to update queue times. Ride operators would call this person up to update queue times (which was very much an educated guess - based off how long the queue was, number of Fastrack/RAP people waiting, previous experiences, what guests would say, etc). In theory, this should be done at least every 30mins for large rides (but more regularly if necessary). Of course, ride operators have a lot of other things to do, can't always see the whole queue, etc - giving an estimated queue time is rarely a top priority.
So, simultaneously, the dedicated queue time person would be walking round the park, looking at queues and queue times, working with ride operators to ensure they were on the same page, and so forth. This takes some pressure off ride operators. And ultimately, this is a good thing as queue time person will be able to give consistent queue time readings.
It's still not without its flaws; estimates could be wrong, rides can become less/more efficient (due to staff or guests slowing operations down), you can't have an eye on the queue all the time, etc.
One way in which Thorpe tried to combat was trialled on Saw. Basically, the cameras which oversaw the queue line had some software installed (I believe it was called Headmapper or similar). As the name might suggest, this maps people's heads as they go through the queue, and can log how long they're in the queue for. This can also take into account Fastrack and RAP systems, and work them into it. This can then throw up a very accurate estimated queue time based on how many people are in the queue. You may have seen this actually; the queue time for Saw was advertised to the minute (eg 53 minutes) during these trials.
In my experience, this technology was largely accurate, but has some problems:
-It struggled with giving queue times when it was short (I don't think it ever displayed anything less than 10mins, but anything under 30mins could be iffy)
-If it was over-ridden, it needed reseting manually, which could be a pain
-It is expensive
-It needs constant, full coverage of the queue line (ie: cameras have to be in a fixed position and can't move, and can't have other things to focus on). Most cameras at any theme park will be focused on safety critical areas (parts of ride areas and pathways), with queue lines only in view at the side / background.
The last two points are the major killer - an expensive system which would require an expensive and complex initial outlay (installing queue line specific cameras everywhere).
There are other options out there which do similar things (I believe Phantasialand and Efteling have such systems), but again, the cost and maintenance of them can be very high. You can get cheaper options (one which literally count people in and out), but these have many more flaws and likely more inaccurate. The app / Bluetooth thing Towers do is probably on the cheaper side I'd imagine, and obviously has many flaws - not many people having the app and having Bluetooth always activated, I believe it's not always reliable, etc.
There are other routes that can be explored. One way which was explored at Thorpe a couple of years back involved a lot of background mathematical calculations (something which can be explained more if people are interested..) which gave staff queue time cards which said how long a queue would be at certain points. This countered the need for expensive, costly systems, whilst still maintaining a good degree of accuracy. Sadly, this never got the time or drive behind it to fully take off.
Queue times for theme parks is a complicated thing (anyone in any way interested, Google 'queueing theory', and enjoy the complicated maths the follows..). There's so many variables to consider, many of which aren't understandable to your standard theme park worker. This is why most places will just guess or not advertise queue times at all - there's no way to perfect the science without some serious mathematical work. Only a few places can really justify the expense of accurate systems.
One reason that parks, in general, aren't willing to throw money at fancy queueing systems is because, broadly speaking, guests don't care about how accurate a queue time is that much. If a queue time is advertised as 110mins and it's actually 120mins, they don't care *that* much, because it's still basically 2 hours, and that's the bigger issue. Parks more care (or rather, should more care) about making queue times shorter in the first place, than accurately displaying queue times - and that's where their money goes first.
To go back to the original question - Towers do have access to Bluetooth technology which can try and give queue times, but this is rarely accurate and usually over-ridden. Staff guestimate based on previous experience and asking guests.
Sorry, I've reallllllly rambled on here. If you've read through all this, you can probably tell this is something which I've dabbled in in the past and am passionate over. Always happy to give more info if people so desire...
If you have any more nerdy info please share it!*blows dust off account, chokes, regains breath, and begins*
I can't speak for Alton Towers exactly, but I can speak for Thorpe Park, and at least give some insight in some of the things tried there to improve queue time accuracy.
Thorpe Park used to have a dedicated person to update queue times. Ride operators would call this person up to update queue times (which was very much an educated guess - based off how long the queue was, number of Fastrack/RAP people waiting, previous experiences, what guests would say, etc). In theory, this should be done at least every 30mins for large rides (but more regularly if necessary). Of course, ride operators have a lot of other things to do, can't always see the whole queue, etc - giving an estimated queue time is rarely a top priority.
So, simultaneously, the dedicated queue time person would be walking round the park, looking at queues and queue times, working with ride operators to ensure they were on the same page, and so forth. This takes some pressure off ride operators. And ultimately, this is a good thing as queue time person will be able to give consistent queue time readings.
It's still not without its flaws; estimates could be wrong, rides can become less/more efficient (due to staff or guests slowing operations down), you can't have an eye on the queue all the time, etc.
One way in which Thorpe tried to combat was trialled on Saw. Basically, the cameras which oversaw the queue line had some software installed (I believe it was called Headmapper or similar). As the name might suggest, this maps people's heads as they go through the queue, and can log how long they're in the queue for. This can also take into account Fastrack and RAP systems, and work them into it. This can then throw up a very accurate estimated queue time based on how many people are in the queue. You may have seen this actually; the queue time for Saw was advertised to the minute (eg 53 minutes) during these trials.
In my experience, this technology was largely accurate, but has some problems:
-It struggled with giving queue times when it was short (I don't think it ever displayed anything less than 10mins, but anything under 30mins could be iffy)
-If it was over-ridden, it needed reseting manually, which could be a pain
-It is expensive
-It needs constant, full coverage of the queue line (ie: cameras have to be in a fixed position and can't move, and can't have other things to focus on). Most cameras at any theme park will be focused on safety critical areas (parts of ride areas and pathways), with queue lines only in view at the side / background.
The last two points are the major killer - an expensive system which would require an expensive and complex initial outlay (installing queue line specific cameras everywhere).
There are other options out there which do similar things (I believe Phantasialand and Efteling have such systems), but again, the cost and maintenance of them can be very high. You can get cheaper options (one which literally count people in and out), but these have many more flaws and likely more inaccurate. The app / Bluetooth thing Towers do is probably on the cheaper side I'd imagine, and obviously has many flaws - not many people having the app and having Bluetooth always activated, I believe it's not always reliable, etc.
There are other routes that can be explored. One way which was explored at Thorpe a couple of years back involved a lot of background mathematical calculations (something which can be explained more if people are interested..) which gave staff queue time cards which said how long a queue would be at certain points. This countered the need for expensive, costly systems, whilst still maintaining a good degree of accuracy. Sadly, this never got the time or drive behind it to fully take off.
Queue times for theme parks is a complicated thing (anyone in any way interested, Google 'queueing theory', and enjoy the complicated maths the follows..). There's so many variables to consider, many of which aren't understandable to your standard theme park worker. This is why most places will just guess or not advertise queue times at all - there's no way to perfect the science without some serious mathematical work. Only a few places can really justify the expense of accurate systems.
One reason that parks, in general, aren't willing to throw money at fancy queueing systems is because, broadly speaking, guests don't care about how accurate a queue time is that much. If a queue time is advertised as 110mins and it's actually 120mins, they don't care *that* much, because it's still basically 2 hours, and that's the bigger issue. Parks more care (or rather, should more care) about making queue times shorter in the first place, than accurately displaying queue times - and that's where their money goes first.
To go back to the original question - Towers do have access to Bluetooth technology which can try and give queue times, but this is rarely accurate and usually over-ridden. Staff guestimate based on previous experience and asking guests.
Sorry, I've reallllllly rambled on here. If you've read through all this, you can probably tell this is something which I've dabbled in in the past and am passionate over. Always happy to give more info if people so desire...
Thanks for sharing, how long ago was this out of interest?
My one visit to Thorpe last season had by far the most inaccurate queue times I've ever experienced in any park - ever.
Don't get me started on my 'deliberately overstate queue times to push Fastrack sales' theory
Alton generally seem to get it right in my experience, it's only every 5-10 mins off if anything.
Europa Park seem to get it 100% spot on, but then it's easier to estimate with no Fastrack.
If you have any more nerdy info please share it!
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Except that in the case of most rides the queue times are provided by ride operators and the trains in service decided by a combination of ops and techies.What evidence do you have that parks do not overestimate queuetimes to boost queuejumper pass sales?
On a few moderately busy days in the past, I have gone round just about every ride in less time than the queue time screens have suggested.
By rights it should average out overall.
I have little faith in any park not enhancing sales of such passes by slowing operations by reduced train service and estimating queues incorrectly.
It isn't just Merlin that plays this game...Mingoland and BPB come to mind.
When I was last at Disney (start of the year) I didn’t see any of the red tags so they must of changed.Disney have an electronic version of this where a NFC card is scanned at the start and end of the queue.
The Bluetooth system at AT is similar but I don’t expect there are that many devices actually connecting and reporting.
What evidence do you have that parks do not overestimate queuetimes to boost queuejumper pass sales?
On a few moderately busy days in the past, I have gone round just about every ride in less time than the queue time screens have suggested.
By rights it should average out overall.
I have little faith in any park not enhancing sales of such passes by slowing operations by reduced train service and estimating queues incorrectly.
It isn't just Merlin that plays this game...Mingoland and BPB come to mind.
I used to like the old fashion way, where in certain point of the queue-line you have signs saying that your wait is approx "X" minutes from this point. Obviously these signs do not take in consideration the number of cars running, and RAP, Fast Track merge.
Erm no one has gone full hitler, that's why.How has this thread gone on for three pages when that incredible Minecraft one where the guy who started it went full Adolf Hitler inside three posts got locked