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[2024] Alpenexpress & Tiroler Wildwasserbahn Rebuild
- Thread starter CSLKenny
- Start date
This is the only insightful post in this topic since it happened 
pluk
TS Member
I wonder if any filled ride vehicles did travel through that building once it was noticeably on fire? That would have been a hell of an experience, terrifying if you knew it shouldn't have fire effects and impressive if you didn't! All a bit too close to my themepark related nightmare I used to have a lot!
https://towersstreet.com/talk/threads/theme-park-related-dreams-youve-had.5733/post-321604
https://towersstreet.com/talk/threads/theme-park-related-dreams-youve-had.5733/post-321604
Dave
TS Founding Member
I think there needs to be a bit of a sense of balance on both sides of the argument. It's incredibly unlucky for two large fires to occur, and like any major incident that means there will and indeed should be further detailed review on how they can improve things in future. Be that from a procedural point of view or from the installation of additional fire protection. It doesn't however, mean that everything that's a "tinder box" should be shut down pending it being "made safe". You can put as much fire protection as you want on things, but ultimately the vast majority of stuff will go up in flames at some point. If the fire was caused by an electrical fault, you concentrate on minimising the risk of that happening again by changing inspection procedures/replacing equipment. Much like the park minimised the risk after the Scandinavia incident by minimising fire effects usage.
Remember, we have barely any official word on when they were first alerted to the fire, when they started evacuating and when guests were off the affected attractions before the fire actually took hold. What we do know is that there were no injuries aside from minor ones from two responders with smoke inhalation injuries, which is impressive considering the 25,000 guests on park that day. So while some may claim that it was a miracle no one was hurt, others may say that it was a sign that the procedures and existing protection in place worked. In addition, considering it was so contained so well to essentially one building leans me toward the latter.
But, as pointed out fires have occurred in other parks such as Towers that have also caused a complete loss of a building - with the Skyride fires happening within 2 years of each other. Yes, they were "smaller scale", but the CCL Skyride fire was an electrical fault just like the EP one appears to be. As @rob666 pointed out, there's a fair bit of space between the station and other building. However, would that fire have been only limited to the station if the same thing were to occur on Towers Street's Skyride station?....
And would those fires have had the same "no casualties" outcome if they occurred during peak hours at the theme park like they did at EP? It's obviously impossible to say for certain, and I hope no park is put in that situation. But I think it's just important to have a bit of perspective on the whole thing and what actions should be taken as a result of it. Germany is renowned for its safety procedures, I have full faith that reviews will be carried out and changes made without going the "full hog" and closing things en masse like some are suggesting.
I agree with this, though I do think the fact the fire didn’t spread is more to do with the fact that building is slightly set apart from other structures. Don’t get me wrong if there was a silly delay in getting the fire services to the scene then the fire could have eventually kindled across the Spanish street but based on the earlier pictures the entire building was affected.
ItsAllGood
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Wildfire
I would have imagined that as soon as the fire alarm went off control would have called the flume and said to stop loading and run down the ride asap.
For the runaway train they would have station stopped it I guess?
Craig
TS Administrator
In the last week we’ve seen videos and pictures from riders on Jetline and guests around the ride at Gröna Lund in the immediate aftermath of the incident. But the only videos and photos we've seen from Europa-Park were from guests who were generally in areas adjacent to the fire.
I’ve not been able to find even any guest accounts of people being evacuated from Alpen Express or the log flume, only Atlantica which was probably phased in once the severity of the fire increased. To me, that indicates an incredibly speedy evacuation long before guests even knew or saw there was a major issue like the fire.
I’ve not been able to find even any guest accounts of people being evacuated from Alpen Express or the log flume, only Atlantica which was probably phased in once the severity of the fire increased. To me, that indicates an incredibly speedy evacuation long before guests even knew or saw there was a major issue like the fire.
Rob
TS Team
- Favourite Ride
- Steel Vengeance
Exactly, and it was the same for the 2018 fire. No accounts (that I saw at least) from anyone who would have been on Fjord Rafting or Pirates at the time the fire started, or eating in Fjord Restaurant for that matter.
On both occasions, Europa-Park's evacuation procedures have been first class. You could argue they got lucky, but I would strongly disagree. Operationally, on all fronts, Europa-Park lead the way in the theme park industry.
Craig
TS Administrator
Except there was a question about the evacuation procedures as pluk asked if guests saw a fire? That's what Rob and I were addressing in our recent responses:Evacuating a building successfully during a fire doesn’t have classifications. You either manage it or you don’t.
No one is questioning the evacuation procedures, just the generally flammability of the park
Tbh if the fire started in a plant room, the rides may have been cleared before it became visible to guests.
Poisson
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- The Giant Squid
I'm under the impression that most modern plant rooms have a containment time that they should theoretically not be breached for, bit like the fire corridors on Alty Mans and Dungeons. If the alarm systems are up to scratch, an evac should be possible before it spreads too far.
Dave
TS Founding Member
Pluk was asking a very specific question as to whether a ride vehicle may have been in view of the fire prior to the alarm sounding, my point was there hasn’t been any criticism of the evacuation procedures of the park to any great extent.
My response was to the desire for some people to review basic safety procedures like it’s the service quality of a 2 Michelin starred restaurant in the resort hotels, in an almost “defensive” way, rather than a function of basic health and safety.
The majority of the scepticism has been on fire protection in general due to two fires in quick succession rather than how the park responded to the fires once they occurred.
Craig
TS Administrator
Which was answered with some anecdotal evidence as to why that may be the case, along with a bit of praise from some other posters? I'm confused as to why you're responding in such a "defensive" way when people are simply just giving their opinion that the park appears to have dealt with an immediate response to the incident very well? No one's said the park shouldn't review how they can minimise risk in future?
Yes, the definition of a successful evacuation at the most basic level is that you either get people out or you don't. But look closer and I've seen little to no talk of confusion, panic and such from guests. With so many guests on park, that's surely to be viewed as a positive as it's not always the case in incidents like this, no?
Anyway, to put my last comment on the whole thing off the back of my original post, my intention was not to all out defend EP, I was just trying to make the point that the response to the fire should be balanced. Their overall incident plan seems to be very good and as mentioned in press reports changes were made after the first fire, so I don't see a need to outright shut things under the assumption they're going to be going up in flames in minutes. On the other side, I'm not suggesting just relying on a fast response to a fire should be the end of it.
The resort should look at ways of minimising the risk of future fires (and that's all you can do - you can't make things impervious to fire) without going the whole hog and shutting swathes of attractions because of two fires. I don't feel the place is inherently unsafe as some have suggested - insurers, the authorities and indeed the park themselves simply would not allow that to happen. If there was any sort of inherent danger off the back of this incident, we'd have seen things shut down immediately.
DistortAMG
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- POTC Disneyland Paris
What I do know is in the UK. In my experience working with fire regulators and the brigade to help mitigate fire risks in some of our sites.
If we had to similarly major fires, of similar scale, in similar surroundings in such a short space of time. It would be an uphill struggle to keep anything else that is similar, open until we could prove way beyond reasonable doubt that we can do our best to prevent a fire like this from happening again. Is that our H&S being overly caution, maybe. But worth thinking about.
The only thing the park seem to have succeeded in here is making sure people got out.l safe. Very important and very commendable, as they have succeeded in that. Two major fires, these were not small fires, huge. At a themepark in a few years clearly shows something internally is not working or has been overlooked.
I am sure, without a doubt, they will take their responsibilities much more serious a second time around however. I doubt we will see a fire of such scale again due to processes that will be put into place. Things that should have been in place the first time.
The park should be looking at ways to minimise the risk of fires yes. But when you do all that you can. You generally do not get massive infernos erupting. The mitigating factors you put in place usually will prevent that. That is the key takeaway here.
If we had to similarly major fires, of similar scale, in similar surroundings in such a short space of time. It would be an uphill struggle to keep anything else that is similar, open until we could prove way beyond reasonable doubt that we can do our best to prevent a fire like this from happening again. Is that our H&S being overly caution, maybe. But worth thinking about.
The only thing the park seem to have succeeded in here is making sure people got out.l safe. Very important and very commendable, as they have succeeded in that. Two major fires, these were not small fires, huge. At a themepark in a few years clearly shows something internally is not working or has been overlooked.
I am sure, without a doubt, they will take their responsibilities much more serious a second time around however. I doubt we will see a fire of such scale again due to processes that will be put into place. Things that should have been in place the first time.
The park should be looking at ways to minimise the risk of fires yes. But when you do all that you can. You generally do not get massive infernos erupting. The mitigating factors you put in place usually will prevent that. That is the key takeaway here.
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Squiggs
TS Team
I suppose that is part of the point. Europa Park haven't had two similar fires in a short space of time. They have had two fires, but the nature of those fires, even from the small amounts we know, sound very different in profile.
In many ways, the recent fire sounds more understandable, since it started in a control room, which is one of the most likely places a fire might start. The Batavia fire was much more problematic because, if I recall correctly, it started in a storage area, a spot where there should have been much less chance of a fire occurring.
DistortAMG
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- POTC Disneyland Paris
I suppose yeah. But they are similar in the sense. Dark rides erupted and were totally destroyed.
Rob
TS Team
- Favourite Ride
- Steel Vengeance
From other photos I have seen on epfriends.de, it looks like there are 2 cranes on site and they have put fresh tarmac down on some of the paths in Portugal, presumably so that heavier vehicles can safely get to the site. With this being somewhat in the middle of the park, you suspect that the areas around Spain/Portugal/Austria may be a bit messy at time over the next few months. It's arguably why they didn't want to do loads more work on Josefina's, to avoid such disruption.There she goes...
source andi epfriends.de
The UK and Germany are very different. Just look at the case of the rapids at Alton Towers and the hoops they are having to jump through to be able to operate it following the incident at Drayton Manor. That simply wouldn't happen in Germany. That is not to say that safety standards are any less there, just that a different approach is taken.
Without knowing the full facts of both fires it's hard to say what they should or should not be doing. I am just confident that they will take all necessary steps to minimise the risk of there being another fire. Closing everything else that could burn is not a necessary step for all of the reasons already outlined.
Benzin
TS Member
I'd imagine the main difference was where the fires started.
This one being in a plant room probably had more time before it really went ablaze due to likelihood of fire protection being in place and able to withstand a decent amount for the standard 30 to 60 minute rates usually found on fire doors.
As PiB started in storage, can only assume that there was far more flammable items in the area, causing the fire to increase at a far more rapid scale comparatively, neither helped by being surrounded by lots of theming that is ripe as fuel.
I did see an account from Reddit of someone who was in the Diamond Mine when the alarm went off. I can also assume given the German reaction to such things (never have I seen people so prepared in a hotel lobby after a late night fire alarm) that the thought process probably was "oh dear, an alarm probably means I should leave the area".
Luck maybe, but you often make your own luck. And clearly operational procedures worked in the park's favour, especially given the Flume would've likely been sending people through a short time after the alarm initially went off.
This one being in a plant room probably had more time before it really went ablaze due to likelihood of fire protection being in place and able to withstand a decent amount for the standard 30 to 60 minute rates usually found on fire doors.
As PiB started in storage, can only assume that there was far more flammable items in the area, causing the fire to increase at a far more rapid scale comparatively, neither helped by being surrounded by lots of theming that is ripe as fuel.
I did see an account from Reddit of someone who was in the Diamond Mine when the alarm went off. I can also assume given the German reaction to such things (never have I seen people so prepared in a hotel lobby after a late night fire alarm) that the thought process probably was "oh dear, an alarm probably means I should leave the area".
Luck maybe, but you often make your own luck. And clearly operational procedures worked in the park's favour, especially given the Flume would've likely been sending people through a short time after the alarm initially went off.