Jb85
TS Member
Which goes back to years of under investment and opex cuts
If you keep cutting eventually something has to give.
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This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks. - Thread starter Matt.GC
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Existential Crisis? Towers and it's future
Which goes back to years of under investment and opex cuts
If you keep cutting eventually something has to give.
TedShatner10
TS Member
But (having been to Legoland) they are obviously investing back into the flagship parks, but we're still months to years away to see semi-permanent positive change outside of key rides (Thorpe Park today got a better reputation than Altons with ride upkeep, while Altons was fine from March to July but fell off a cliff by August when heavily tested by holiday crowds).
RIPCorky
TS Member
Both rides not built from scratch. Lets be honest most of the work in Alton manor was already there and some or the majority of the new effects are of questionable quality
TedShatner10
TS Member
To be fair Nemesis Reborn was almost a ground up complete rebuild (even if some old punters didn't care too much for the Swarm style new theme dressing) and people very nostalgic for the 90s/early 00s Haunted Manor (supposedly the biggest dark ride in Europe until Disneyland Paris' attractions) would see the new narrative and charactere leaving them a bit cold (but judging from this clip it does not look overly questionable, even if it is essentially a redecorated refresh of a very old dark ride).
I’m not entirely sure on the merits of comparing Alton to Paultons, but I guess where Paultons have a huge opportunity and advantage in the immediate years is that they already have a well presented park with minimal concerns, so for them it’s just basic maintenance and full focus can be on adding things.
Whereas Towers need new stuff to freshen the park up and drag in the numbers, but they also have a plethora of maintenance and presentation issues to fix too and it’s looking like a never ending list of stuff that needs doing - you could ask ten different people what should Towers be prioritising and get ten different answers.
Whereas Towers need new stuff to freshen the park up and drag in the numbers, but they also have a plethora of maintenance and presentation issues to fix too and it’s looking like a never ending list of stuff that needs doing - you could ask ten different people what should Towers be prioritising and get ten different answers.
Dave
TS Founding Member
Nemesis pretty much was.
I know they were not to your taste but to my mind with a couple of exceptions the new stuff in Curse impresses and the reused bits of HH are the weakest parts of Curse (flying heads as an example).
I have no issue with the capex decisions for 2023, 2024 (and what we can see of 2025). Towers has been neglected for so long they needed to fix existing attractions and add flats.
The bigger problem Towers has is day to day operations, particularly around maintenance uptime.
TedShatner10
TS Member
Also the bulk of Altons' catering (outside of the trailers) by all accounts is said to be middling to poor for the extortionate pricing.
owenstreet7
TS Member
Personally, until we see further investment up and running, it'd be difficult to say they've turned a corner.
We've had:
The park's last new rollercoaster open in 2018
Their main water ride removed and not directly replaced
Flat Rides being removed left, right and centre with no planned replacement.
Temporary Fairground Rides coming in to fill in the gaps and then going a year early before any new flats come potentially in.
Hex and Skyride having major issues and experiencing downtime for years
Quality of the food has gone downhill
Queues are through the roof
Queue times being hidden by location
Opting to raise height restriction for Runaway Mine Train rather than get Mack to give it new restraints like on Flying Fish.
Still no shuttle bus from Stoke or nearby major train station to Towers
On the positives, we've had:
Nemesis being retracked so it can stay open for generations to come
Duel being redone into Curse at Alton Manor although I wouldn't have classed that as a priority at the time.
Nemesis Sub Terra reopening after 6 years of standing but not operating
Blade is still going despite it almost closing and being marked for closure on long term development plans
Flavios staying after the Retrosquad left
The park reopening the Towers (even if it's behind a paywall)
Constant investment in Cbeebies Land for younger ones
Spinball Whizzer getting a Single Rider queue.
The park is improving but has a very long way to go. It's going to take a very long time to fix after years of stagnation.
We've had:
The park's last new rollercoaster open in 2018
Their main water ride removed and not directly replaced
Flat Rides being removed left, right and centre with no planned replacement.
Temporary Fairground Rides coming in to fill in the gaps and then going a year early before any new flats come potentially in.
Hex and Skyride having major issues and experiencing downtime for years
Quality of the food has gone downhill
Queues are through the roof
Queue times being hidden by location
Opting to raise height restriction for Runaway Mine Train rather than get Mack to give it new restraints like on Flying Fish.
Still no shuttle bus from Stoke or nearby major train station to Towers
On the positives, we've had:
Nemesis being retracked so it can stay open for generations to come
Duel being redone into Curse at Alton Manor although I wouldn't have classed that as a priority at the time.
Nemesis Sub Terra reopening after 6 years of standing but not operating
Blade is still going despite it almost closing and being marked for closure on long term development plans
Flavios staying after the Retrosquad left
The park reopening the Towers (even if it's behind a paywall)
Constant investment in Cbeebies Land for younger ones
Spinball Whizzer getting a Single Rider queue.
The park is improving but has a very long way to go. It's going to take a very long time to fix after years of stagnation.
Matt.GC
TS Member
Good intentions and who's fault it is for the state of the whole resort is a separate debate I feel. To me, it's about where the park is right now, and where it's likely to be in the near future.
And it doesn't look good. The attraction lineup has been hollowed out to it's worst ever this year. The permanent flat ride situation has probably never been worse. Many of the remaining attractions are very old and in need of investment. Opening hours have been poor. Ride availability has been awful. It's the worse season I've ever known for queues and rides per head due to a number of factors. Fast food is still eye wateringly poor value, sit down food provision is lacking. There's still empty buildings everywhere. The gardens are in poor shape. Overall theming and resort wide upkeep is poor and there's a long list of issues. Infrastructure like the monorail appears to be on deaths door, and the Sky Ride remains closed. There's an abandoned and overgrown High Ropes course and Spa. There hasn't been a major attraction investment since 2018.
Even if we get a new flat, Hex, and Sky Ride back next year, it's pretty much all a drop in the ocean with many of the other issues continuing to bite and build up. They're firefighting, but don't have enough hose pipes and extinguishers to deal with them all. I can't see that changing without some £multimillion bailout, and the decline in guest experience this year isn't likely to get better any time soon. The deck chairs are effectively being moved around, and the violinists on the deck tasked with keeping everyone entertained have been given a more upbeat tune to play. But the facts remain.
And it doesn't look good. The attraction lineup has been hollowed out to it's worst ever this year. The permanent flat ride situation has probably never been worse. Many of the remaining attractions are very old and in need of investment. Opening hours have been poor. Ride availability has been awful. It's the worse season I've ever known for queues and rides per head due to a number of factors. Fast food is still eye wateringly poor value, sit down food provision is lacking. There's still empty buildings everywhere. The gardens are in poor shape. Overall theming and resort wide upkeep is poor and there's a long list of issues. Infrastructure like the monorail appears to be on deaths door, and the Sky Ride remains closed. There's an abandoned and overgrown High Ropes course and Spa. There hasn't been a major attraction investment since 2018.
Even if we get a new flat, Hex, and Sky Ride back next year, it's pretty much all a drop in the ocean with many of the other issues continuing to bite and build up. They're firefighting, but don't have enough hose pipes and extinguishers to deal with them all. I can't see that changing without some £multimillion bailout, and the decline in guest experience this year isn't likely to get better any time soon. The deck chairs are effectively being moved around, and the violinists on the deck tasked with keeping everyone entertained have been given a more upbeat tune to play. But the facts remain.
QTXAdsy
TS Member
And you can see why many are jumping the sinking Towers ship and onto the Paultons ship.
Matt N
TS Member
If I’m being honest, I sometimes think the rhetoric used on here is a tad alarmist with regard to the long term trajectory of the resort.
I won’t deny that Alton certainly has its fair share of problems, and things are not all rosy at the moment by any means. There are undeniably a few significant problems to be addressed at the moment, and it would be highly disingenuous for me to suggest otherwise. Ride availability is evidently a big issue that urgently needs sorting, the lack of permanent flat rides does stand out, and the absence of attractions like Hex and Skyride is currently making things more difficult than they should be. The unknown status of Project Horizon, and the lack of any confirmed major ride investment in the foreseeable future, is concerning. While I haven’t personally tried it, the Aramark food is also contentious, being poorly reviewed and highly priced.
However, as much as some of you make out that there’s a long, long to do list at Alton, I ask; is all of the stuff mentioned in these to do lists really absolutely life and death and needing to be done right now, or is it simply a nice to have? Every park in the world will have a to-do list to some extent, and some of the problems people mention do not sound to me like utterly urgent matters. They sound more like things that could be put on the back burner and kept in mind for the future rather than needing to be dealt with right this second. I’m confident that these things will be dealt with eventually, but I don’t think all of the things people mention are absolutely essential, more nice to haves. Every park in the world will have a similar to-do list of things to tackle, and no park is ever without its flaws and imperfections, so if Alton is in some sort of death spiral because of this kind of list, most parks in the world probably are!
I’d also say that if we look at the trajectory of the park and things that have happened in recent times, it’s far from solely negative, in my view.
They’re doing a nice job of gradually sprucing up sections of the park, with Gloomy Wood being spruced up very nicely with the addition of The Curse at Alton Manor and Forbidden Valley being spruced up very nicely with the Nemesis Reborn refurbishment. I have faith that they’ll eventually apply this treatment to other sections of the park and try and work their way around.
We are getting a new permanent flat ride next year, and there are utterances that this may not be the only one in store in the short to medium term (I believe Bianca referenced 3 flat rides, did she not?). Project Ocean is certainly a start, and if it’s joined by a couple of other flat rides in the short to medium term (it’s not out of the question that others may join it next year, given the GDO rules in parts of the park…), I think that would go some way towards rectifying things. If Hex and Skyride also return, then they along with some flat rides should make things better.
On the subject of Hex and Skyride; as much as people like to moan about the extended closure of both, there is clearly strong will within the park to get them back open, and I have faith that both will be back in operation in 2025. With Hex in particular, we have been shown proof by Bianca that they are putting a lot of effort into getting that ride back open.
In terms of opening hours; people may moan about them, but they’re better than they once were in some regards. Midweek closures are no more. The number of those ever-controversial 4pm closes is reducing.
In terms of major investments; I would like to hope that Project Horizon is still on its way within the next couple of years, as much as it is currently in limbo and its status is unknown. With that being said, I fully agree that the park needs a new major investment within the next few years, and it would be concerning if Horizon has been cancelled or pushed back significantly with no replacement new ride of equivalent calibre.
I’d also say that I think it’s difficult to tell what the trajectory will be simply because we’ve had a wholesale change in management at both Alton Towers and Merlin within the last year or two. Much of the senior management team at Merlin who influenced many of the previous decisions are now gone, and Scott O’Neil and his new team will naturally have a different mark to make on the parks to what Varney and the old guard did. Alton Towers itself has also had a big change in management, with Bianca Samut coming along as Divisional Director along with various other new managers. While Merlin being a private company is not a new development at this point, I think it is too early to tell how Scott O’Neil and the like intend to run Merlin in the long term and they can’t be blamed for every single thing that’s wrong. Blaming Bianca Samut and Scott O’Neil for every problem at Alton Towers would be like blaming Keir Starmer and the Labour Party for the current state of UK public services. Starmer simply hasn’t been in long enough to be responsible for everything that’s currently wrong with the UK, and the same can be said for Bianca Samut and Scott O’Neil with regard to Alton Towers.
So overall, then, I don’t think things are as bad as people make out, and with the wholesale change in management at both Alton Towers and Merlin, I think it’s too early to tell what the overall trajectory will be under the tenure of Bianca Samut and Scott O’Neil. There are positive signs, and there are some not so positive signs.
I won’t deny that Alton certainly has its fair share of problems, and things are not all rosy at the moment by any means. There are undeniably a few significant problems to be addressed at the moment, and it would be highly disingenuous for me to suggest otherwise. Ride availability is evidently a big issue that urgently needs sorting, the lack of permanent flat rides does stand out, and the absence of attractions like Hex and Skyride is currently making things more difficult than they should be. The unknown status of Project Horizon, and the lack of any confirmed major ride investment in the foreseeable future, is concerning. While I haven’t personally tried it, the Aramark food is also contentious, being poorly reviewed and highly priced.
However, as much as some of you make out that there’s a long, long to do list at Alton, I ask; is all of the stuff mentioned in these to do lists really absolutely life and death and needing to be done right now, or is it simply a nice to have? Every park in the world will have a to-do list to some extent, and some of the problems people mention do not sound to me like utterly urgent matters. They sound more like things that could be put on the back burner and kept in mind for the future rather than needing to be dealt with right this second. I’m confident that these things will be dealt with eventually, but I don’t think all of the things people mention are absolutely essential, more nice to haves. Every park in the world will have a similar to-do list of things to tackle, and no park is ever without its flaws and imperfections, so if Alton is in some sort of death spiral because of this kind of list, most parks in the world probably are!
I’d also say that if we look at the trajectory of the park and things that have happened in recent times, it’s far from solely negative, in my view.
They’re doing a nice job of gradually sprucing up sections of the park, with Gloomy Wood being spruced up very nicely with the addition of The Curse at Alton Manor and Forbidden Valley being spruced up very nicely with the Nemesis Reborn refurbishment. I have faith that they’ll eventually apply this treatment to other sections of the park and try and work their way around.
We are getting a new permanent flat ride next year, and there are utterances that this may not be the only one in store in the short to medium term (I believe Bianca referenced 3 flat rides, did she not?). Project Ocean is certainly a start, and if it’s joined by a couple of other flat rides in the short to medium term (it’s not out of the question that others may join it next year, given the GDO rules in parts of the park…), I think that would go some way towards rectifying things. If Hex and Skyride also return, then they along with some flat rides should make things better.
On the subject of Hex and Skyride; as much as people like to moan about the extended closure of both, there is clearly strong will within the park to get them back open, and I have faith that both will be back in operation in 2025. With Hex in particular, we have been shown proof by Bianca that they are putting a lot of effort into getting that ride back open.
In terms of opening hours; people may moan about them, but they’re better than they once were in some regards. Midweek closures are no more. The number of those ever-controversial 4pm closes is reducing.
In terms of major investments; I would like to hope that Project Horizon is still on its way within the next couple of years, as much as it is currently in limbo and its status is unknown. With that being said, I fully agree that the park needs a new major investment within the next few years, and it would be concerning if Horizon has been cancelled or pushed back significantly with no replacement new ride of equivalent calibre.
I’d also say that I think it’s difficult to tell what the trajectory will be simply because we’ve had a wholesale change in management at both Alton Towers and Merlin within the last year or two. Much of the senior management team at Merlin who influenced many of the previous decisions are now gone, and Scott O’Neil and his new team will naturally have a different mark to make on the parks to what Varney and the old guard did. Alton Towers itself has also had a big change in management, with Bianca Samut coming along as Divisional Director along with various other new managers. While Merlin being a private company is not a new development at this point, I think it is too early to tell how Scott O’Neil and the like intend to run Merlin in the long term and they can’t be blamed for every single thing that’s wrong. Blaming Bianca Samut and Scott O’Neil for every problem at Alton Towers would be like blaming Keir Starmer and the Labour Party for the current state of UK public services. Starmer simply hasn’t been in long enough to be responsible for everything that’s currently wrong with the UK, and the same can be said for Bianca Samut and Scott O’Neil with regard to Alton Towers.
So overall, then, I don’t think things are as bad as people make out, and with the wholesale change in management at both Alton Towers and Merlin, I think it’s too early to tell what the overall trajectory will be under the tenure of Bianca Samut and Scott O’Neil. There are positive signs, and there are some not so positive signs.
To me, the biggest issue is the appalling attitude to the disabled guests and those with limited mobility, full stop.
Two whole years, disgraceful.
jon81uk
TS Member
The rapids are still running?
jon81uk
TS Member
As discussed on the Paulton thread, AT and Paulton aren't quite in competition. AT has lots of thrill rides and some toddler rides. Paulton has a variety of family rides and family-thrill but no full thrill rides. Those 1.1-1.4m tall will have a better time at Paulton, those 1.5m and taller might enjoy Alton Towers more.
Paulton is in competition to Chessington, Legoland and (to some extent) Drayton Manor.
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Just beaten to it but they really aren't!
Do you have the slightest shred of evidence or statistics to back up your claim?
From my position in the north, and for many in the midlands, Paulton's never enters the imagination when considering alternatives to the Towers.
Different markets, different targets, and wide geography all suggest there is no direct competition between the two.
owenstreet7
TS Member
That is true, I was referring to the Flume as the main water ride in that context.
The issue with the rapids is that the ones in this country don't get you wet anymore and doesn't fill a void like a water ride with a splashdown does such as a flume, water coaster or similar.
QTXAdsy
TS Member
I wasn't meaning about different markets, I was referring to of for once a UK park not falling to pieces as in all the Merlin parks...which is a low bar but that's where we are right now.
venny
TS Member
Agree with you. It’s particular interesting that when you look at the positives, they are nearly exclusively just the retention/refurbishment of existing attractions. I think that speaks for itself.
Squiggs
TS Team
In a weird way, Matt, what you seem to have done here is write a post where the main body of what you've written more or less entirely counterpoints your intro and conclusion.
The fact that you start the body your post by listing five major issues, covering three quite distinct areas that are vital to the success of the park is probably not the best place to start, but then there only seems to be a couple of mildly positive point that you're making to counter these major issues. It somewhat gives a sense that the argument being made is that 'it's not as bad as people make out, because it could be so much worse'.
I do agree with your point that the wholesale change in management makes it difficult to tell what the trajectory will be, but otherwise I fear you've made a compelling case as to why there is not yet any indication that we have actually turned a corner (whilst is may be possible that maybe a corner might be in sight).
Matt.GC
TS Member
Touche. This is what I'm saying, the problems are significant. This paragraph doesn't sound like a casual guest is getting as good an experience as they've had in the past to me.
You've contradicted your proceeding paragraph here I feel. Is actually having attractions to ride, that open relatively on time, with edible fast food, and half decent opening hours not pretty essential stuff? Hardly "nice to have" wouldn't you say? Every park in the world will have a to do list, but it's the extent of Alton's that is the primary concern.
That's just pretty standard day to day stuff that a theme park operator should be doing anyway wouldn't you say? Maintaining their product? Just because they've conditioned us regular patrons into expecting that letting things go to ruin over many decades is normal, sprucing and updating things should be a pretty standard expectation to stop things getting worse, not a sign that things are moving forward. By the time they get round the place with paint brushes and new shipping containers, they'd need to go back to the start again. This isn't progress, it's just stopping upkeep getting even worse like it was before.
Fine, but as above, that's just standard upkeep is it not? Did we not have both of these attractions before for decades already? Are we to be grateful that they reopened them rather than closed them permanently? If that's progress, then how low were your previous expectations?
Exactly why I steered away from the "give them a chance" and "who did what/who's fault is it" stuff. A paying guest doesn't care about any of that. They care about the experience they're getting for their hard earned cash. And it's just not good enough at the moment, and doesn't show signs of being much better next year. Where's the money coming from?
I didn't blame them in my post that's for sure. You mentioned the UK government, and with the poor state the country is in right now, that won't be improving much in the near future either.