UK Politics General Discussion

[BarryZola]

That’s a big misunderstanding of our political process, if a government had to resign every time they lost a vote (they didn’t lose the winter fuel one, they just decided to change the parameters due to political pressure), then we would be going through governments at a rate of 1 a year on average. It’s clear governments fall when either they lose a vote of no confidence or lose a vote on the budget which is a defacto VoNC.

That's not what I was saying. I was just suggesting that as a person, as the leader of your party, if you can't even get your two important things passed through because your own party members are voting against them then just as a person you should hold your hands up metaphorically and say "You do it then". You should be able to get your whips to get your party member behind you in votes like that even if they don't totally agree with it (I know that sounds wrong but it's the way that it usually works in our system).

Obviously I wasn't suggesting that Labour should give up power, just that if Starmer had anything about him he would say "Look, I can't work without the support of my own party when I need it, so I'll go and do something more worthwhile". It's all about the moral fabric of people.

 

[Dave]

That's not what I was saying. I was just suggesting that as a person, as the leader of your party, if you can't even get your two important things passed through because your own party members are voting against them then just as a person you should hold your hands up metaphorically and say "You do it then". You should be able to get your whips to get your party member behind you in votes like that even if they don't totally agree with it (I know that sounds wrong but it's the way that it usually works in our system).

Obviously I wasn't suggesting that Labour should give up power, just that if Starmer had anything about him he would say "Look, I can't work without the support of my own party when I need it, so I'll go and do something more worthwhile". It's all about the moral fabric of people.

But again every party leader has had these losses, Thatcher (before poll tax), Blair and Cameron certainly did.

I’m not saying the disability plans where not dumb and I question the advice given at the time, I’m just saying it’s not a standard we have ever held other leaders to.

And neither policy was a major policy as they were not in the kings speech as far as I remember, all their major legislative items are currently passing through parliament.

 

[BarryZola]

No, they weren't major policies announced in the King's speech, that's fair, but they did become massive issues publicly and they were embarrassing U-turns to have to make early on in their leadership. Reeves was even reduced to tears in parliament (no, I don't buy a personal issue thing being responsible for that). I think the changes to PIP etc was announced in the Spring Statement too. And yes, you are right about this happening with other leaders too, but I'm not a fan of those people morally either. I suppose the very top echelons of politics generally attracts certain types of people.

 

[Dave]

No, they weren't major policies announced in the King's speech, that's fair, but they did become massive issues publicly and they were embarrassing U-turns to have to make early on in their leadership. Reeves was even reduced to tears in parliament (no, I don't buy a personal issue thing being responsible for that). I think the changes to PIP etc was announced in the Spring Statement too. And yes, you are right about this happening with other leaders too, but I'm not a fan of those people morally either. I suppose the very top echelons of politics generally attracts certain types of people.

I think the U-turn added to her stress but it’s well documented the speaker had a right go at her just before PMQ’s and she did have a personal issue, I believe it because the right wing press dropped it quicker than they normally would have done. For sure the u-turn probably added to it all.

The u-turns were embarrassing but again we can’t run parliament on vague ideas on when failed legislation becomes a VoNC. I agree they have been worryingly iffy in the 1st year, some of that is bad decision making, a lot of it is bad comms, and it worries me that Farage might get in because of their missteps but at the moment in my constituency it’s either going to be Labour or reform so I won’t have any choice but to vote Labour because reform will destroy this country just as MAGA is destroying America.