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The Brexit Thread

Britford said:
I don't think I ever asked, why did you (all) vote remain?
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I was too young to vote, but freedom of movement is a big factor, and I feel we have more power against the likes of China, the US and Russia as part of the EU than on our own.

One thing that comes to mind is free data roaming in the EU.

Ideally I'd be in the Schengen as well. Hopping on a Eurostar like you would on a domestic service would be bliss.
 
Britford said:
I don't think I ever asked, why did you (all) vote remain?
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For me, it's not that I am/was a Europhile, far from it. I am deeply critical about aspects of the European Union and how it operates, but on balance, leaving just didn't seem to be a solution to anything. Plus, the blank cheque approach of the referendum seemed unwise - but it didn't strike me until years later, just how unwise it was. Telling the government that I wanted them to do something, without any understanding how and when they were going to do it, as a means to what end etc.

I think in a lot of ways, the EU had become a scapegoat for the failure of successive governments to get a handle on things entirely within their control. For example, public services and housing are always brought up as a reason why freedom of movement is a bad idea - that you can't meet the demand that the system creates, but freedom of movement has been championed by successive governments throughout my lifetime, including the Cameron administration - whilst they were cutting public services to the bone, whilst championing a recovering economy driven by immigrant labour.

I thought Brexit would be a huge distraction because it was never going to be a simple process. Again, I am not sure I thought it would become as big a distraction as it has been - but we've essentially had no domestic agenda for over three years, which has only exacerbated the issues that created a desire for Brexit in the first place. Town, cities, the country and its services have been left even further behind.

Looking ahead, the world powers are going to be continental sized in both population and economic terms. China, India, the US, the EU, Brazil etc. Being outside of one of those as an island nation of 60+ million people doesn't seem to be the way to go, for me. If we want to 'go global', doing so on our own seems counterproductive and almost certainly more difficult than doing it was part of a larger group.

I think the EU affords a huge number of opportunities, which future generations will miss out on - I think that's a shame. Big things like Erasmus, a great university scheme, to small things like having the ability to chuck the dog in the car and head to France on her pet passport and using your phone for nothing when you're there. All those things are done through cooperation - I applaud them and would like to have seen us do more, because we're so geographically close - connected by a tunnel, at the end of the day.

I am fortunate in lots of ways. Some people are way less fortunate, but you'd really struggle to convince me that our leaving of the EU will help them, at all. I thought that before the referendum and I still think that now.

I think some of the biggest reasons people had for voting Brexit will go undelivered and/or unchanged. Particularly with immigration - we have low unemployment, we're not going to close the doors and create a labour shortage. The way we live as a nation demands a lot of cab drivers, restaurant workers, etc etc. "But we'll be able to choose who comes in" is the frequent retort. I guess we will - if the 'we' is an unelected Whitehall official. Freedom of movement is largely self regulating, if there were no jobs, people wouldn't come, if people were coming and there were no jobs, we'd have high unemployment.

BUT with all that said... As I tried to explain in the other thread, I am accepting of the fact that my side lost. I think it's a mistake, but it's an action we're clearly going to take so I'm not going to mope about it, we've got to make it work irrespective of how we all voted.
 
I couldn't have said it better myself @Rick!

I think now we have to just move on from it and accept whats happened has happened. It doesn't mean I agree we are doing the right thing, but you have to either accept we now are going to leave the EU and move on, or be dragged kicking and screaming, but either way Brexit will now happen and we must attempt to bring an end to this country wide divisions
 
Britford said:
I don't think I ever asked, why did you (all) vote remain?
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Freedom of movement, that I can travel Europe without a visa and if I wish I could work in EU countries or of course retire to those countries.

The fact it standardises many rules, (while also allowing for some country specific requirements) makes things a lot easier as manufacturers generally only have to adhere to one standard, if the product is legal to be sold in Germany it would usually pass all the standards to be sold in the UK and so forth.

I also never bought in to the "EU is undemocratic" line, we have MEPs and there are also workers who enact what the MEPs decide. Same as in Westminster we have MPs and then civil servants make their decisions happen. There are always elected officials and unelected administrators.
Would you say the local council is undemocratic because the person that decides bin day is a Monday is an employee who is acting on the wishes of councillors/mayor?
The bigger issue with the European parliament was the UKIP/Brexit MEPs like Farage who were taking the pay and benefits without doing much of the work. Farage sat on the fisheries commission but never showed up and then claimed the EU wasn't helping British fishermen, despite himself being one of the rule-makers!
 
Europe provides good value from what I can see. Large and repeated investment all over the UK, plus all of the agencies which manage various things on our behalf. These are even decentralised so all parts of the EU get the benefits of hosting one.

Opportunities like Erasmus have allowed study and research abroad. While with FOM I'm allowed to go anywhere in the EU without any friction, as can wonderful diverse people from the EU come to this country to live, invest and generally enjoy what the EU has on offer. I woke for a European company with many European staff in England, and the freedom to move between countries is excellent, as are the friends I've made who are from all around Europe and the world.

The EU set basic guidelines which we can enhance to do more. Things like unifying the phone chargers so we all moved to USB-C except apple who are stubborn, it's a great move that is good for the consumer and the planet.

The EU has helped to improve and invest in all of the counties which are a part of it, with some seeing large benefit. While we still have our independence with vetos and the right to a vote.

I see plenty of issues with the EU, but lots of benefits too.
 
Britford said:
I don't think I ever asked, why did you (all) vote remain?
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I think a lot of Brexiteers think that Remainers think the EU is the best thing since sliced bread and it can do no wrong (I apologise if that's not true). From my own personal opinion I don't think the EU is perfect; it certainly has its problems. However I do consider it is better than the alternatives.

Here are some of my reasons:
  • The ability to travel, work, study and retire in 28 countries for as long as you want without any visas or other restrictions
  • The ability for goods and services to pass without any customs checks or delays, all of which would incur costs that will ultimately be passed to the consumer
  • Workers rights and generally improving conditions, such as paid leave and working hours.
  • I have consumer protection if I buy a product from any EU country. There are also protections for flight delays and cancellations.
  • Environmental protections which have improved our water and air quality.
  • Harmonisation of standards which mean that I can create a product and market it for sale across the entire EU knowing it will comply in every country. After Brexit it would be necessary to check the product complies with both the UK and EU standards and also pay for certification in both territories.
  • Similar to above... there is no benefit to "taking control of our laws" because if we diverge our standards from the EU, I would still have to comply with all the EU regulations to market my product in their territories anyway. There is an additional downside that now we have no control over those laws.
  • The EU can negotiate better trade deals with other big players such as the USA and China due to their size, whereas a small country such as the UK would get inferior deals due to a weaker negotiating position.
  • The EU can stand up for its members better than individual countries, e.g. due to aggression from Russia, as it's more powerful for a big bloc to condemn an action. A weakened EU is not good for Europe in the face of an uncertain world.
  • The EU is not anti-democratic. The UK is anti-democratic in its own ways, for example with the outdated FPTP voting system and House of Lords.
 
Alsty said:
Similar to above... there is no benefit to "taking control of our laws" because if we diverge our standards from the EU, I would still have to comply with all the EU regulations to market my product in their territories anyway. There is an additional downside that now we have no control over those laws.
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This is one of my biggest issues now with Brexit, we won't "take back control" as we will still have to confirm to many regulations to trade and sell goods within the EU, while actually having even less control about setting those regulations.
 
I don't know if anyone actually thinks the EU is perfect, but it's always better to be a member of such a club so that you can have a say in matters (if your MEPs bother turning up) rather than stood on the outside of it but still having to follow the majority of the rules since they are your closest trading partner.

Not helped when most of the rules that are lambasted in our media are either nonsense or something we could actually do something about. Like blue passports.
 
The thing about the media mentioning rules we either had a veto over, or can change as internal policy really grinds my gears. It's very disingenuous.

The EU is a scapegoat, has been for a long time. Blame it for our woes and hope nobody looks at who's really behind things.
 
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