Gender Map

The thing is, unless you can "be" another gender, you can't really know if there are differences. I see myself as male, but not because of what I feel but because of my penis.

Being gay "feels" different because you fancy boys instead of girls, so I'd imagine that being female "feels" different because it is different. There are differences, both physical and mental, between male and female that human beings have evolved to accentuate to their advantage. Women have large breasts and long hair, and I'd imagine an innate desire, to find a male to procreate and continue the species. Men have a desire to find a female with the best "characteristics" to continue the species.

Whether that's still relevant is, in my opinion, irrelevant. It's a fact of our nature.

I like that there are males and females to act and behave differently, it adds variety to life IMO.

(I'd post more but I'm tired and am finding it hard to concentrate. Yay, ADHD! )

Great post Ashlee, very interesting to read.

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There's not much I can really add to this as Gender is something I've never had to question. Deep down I’ve simply known and never needed to dwell on it (even when others felt the need to).

Which is why I keep thinking about a particular point that Meat Pie keeps raising:

Meat Pie said:

The problem here is if we are not using unfair stereotypes which make out that male and female minds are different...

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But what if male and female minds are different? And no I don't mean that in the stereotypical way but in the sense that the brain is hard wired to believe it is a particular gender (or as this topic suggests some state in-between genders).

By this reasoning it doesn’t stop the person from being an individual and doesn’t mean they have to conform to gender characteristics but does explain why some don’t feel happy with the sex they have been born as.

Adam - What you are essentially asking is why is sexism harmful? It's harmful because attributing false ideas about certain characteristics belonging to one gender is labelling people as a personality group, rather than looking at people as complex independent human beings. I will not have certain character attributes assigned to one gender or race or sexuality or any group. It alienates people and divides them into inhuman groups that are unrepresentative.

Simon - In my conclusion I am saying that claiming to feel like a biological attribute is actually a rather poor attempt at trying to identify with society's poisonious stereotypes. You cannot feel like a biological attribute, you simply can't. Are you seriously saying that someone can feel like a brunette? It is simply ilogical and all an offshoot of a difference obssessed culture, rather than a tolerant one which makes no assumptions about biological inheritance.

And I take exception to you telling me that I am in a privelged position. I consider the idea that my 'gender matches my sex' not to be true, because gender cannot logically exisist. I am as much mentally a male as I am female, or as I am indeed brown haired. I don't feel like any physical attribute, as such feelings cannot exist. You could argue that some parts of my personality are alike cultural stereotypes of both sexes, but that is incedental as pyschological attributes cannot be of either sex.

Sam - I don't quite see how you get from what I said to eradication of difference? I just feel that people will only ever be liberated when we stop assigning personality characteristics to what is biological attributes. I maintain that providing that you remove the cultural influence variable but changed biological attributes such as sexuality, gender, skin colour, hair colour, how straight your teeth are, your motablilism, etc... Your personality would be the same. I just find the idea that any of my personality could be considered to be down to a mental gender really quite oppressive and upsetting. I am me, no matter what my biological inheritance, I would still be me.

This isn't really an issue relating exclusively to Trans or gender, it's an issue of defending my psycological being as being me, rather than some pre-determined biological creation.

Re: Re: Gender Map

Meat Pie said:

I take exception to you telling me that I am in a privelged position. I consider the idea that my 'gender matches my sex' not to be true, because gender cannot logically exisist. I am as much mentally a male as I am female, or as I am indeed brown haired. I don't feel like any physical attribute, as such feelings cannot exist. You could argue that some parts of my personality are alike cultural stereotypes of both sexes, but that is incedental as pyschological attributes cannot be of either sex.

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Rather than take exception, read my comments to you in conjunction with my previous post about the dichotomy of 'psychological sex' and 'socio-cultural gender' for a better understanding of what I'm driving at.

I can only reiterate that it is simply demonstrably true that people look at themselves in the mirror and think this is not right; this is not what I am, and although social behaviour is a massive part of us and a huge conscious psychological force, there is something deeper and more essential that we can perceive, even if it manifests itself in a nuanced and slippery way.

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Ok. Because I displayed a personal opinion I'm now a transphobic individual, with intents to eradicate transexuals? Stop twisting words, Sam. I'm a very tolerant individual of all things sexual. I apologize AshleeKel as I haven't had time to read your detailed posts yet but I'm sure I will at some point. I'm just going off the basis of personal experience that gender is more a biological thing. I really ddn't need to be shot down by people so harshly for assuming this... And apologies for my bad wording, back there. Again, just going from words picked up in the media etc.

Meat Pie said:

Adam - What you are essentially asking is why is sexism harmful? It's harmful because attributing false ideas about certain characteristics belonging to one gender is labelling people as a personality group, rather than looking at people as complex independent human beings. I will not have certain character attributes assigned to one gender or race or sexuality or any group. It alienates people and divides them into inhuman groups that are unrepresentative.

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I'm afraid you're wrong mate. What I was "essentially" asking is why do you thinking realising that a man has a penis and a women has a vagina is harmful? Women and men are different, how can anyone seriously say they aren't? What isn't different about them is that both men and women are individual people, with individual personalities, individual abilities. Some women are cleverer than men, some men are cleverer than women. Not saying you said they aren't of course, what I am saying is that you don't need to take some moral high ground and assume I that because I questioned your "sexless and genderless" views that means I'm a sexist in denial.

My biggest issue with your post is the word "conformist". I'm not going to pretend I find that offensive and turn this discussion into a war, but why did you have to use that word? Why does having the belief of 99% of western society make me some "conformist" who doesn't think for themselves? Just because you have some views that are different to most people doesn't make everyone who has the mainstream views a conformist.

And I don't buy your whole "gender cannot logically exist" idea either. Let me guess, anyone who disagrees is a "conformist" as well. You have your unique views, good for you. But there's no need to get on some high horse and think anyone who doesn't have some unique and different views like you have is an idiot who just does what society tells them to without thinking.

PS

That comes across as aggressive. It's really not meant to.

Harvey. said:

with intents to eradicate transexuals?

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I didn't say anything remotely like that.

But what you said WAS transphobic. You said: "If you have a penis, you are male. If you have a vagina, you are female." That is a transphobic statement, as it tries to deny that people can be a different gender to the one that their current genitalia correspond with.

You might not have any animosity towards trans* people, but what you said above was a transphobic statement, as the idea of sex being inseparable from gender conflicts with the entire idea of transgenderism. I can only ask you to think about your views on this more carefully, as what you are saying is as offensive to trans* people as if someone said to me that 'nobody is born gay' and then told me it was a choice.

Re: Re: Gender Map

Simon said:

Meat Pie said:

I take exception to you telling me that I am in a privelged position. I consider the idea that my 'gender matches my sex' not to be true, because gender cannot logically exisist. I am as much mentally a male as I am female, or as I am indeed brown haired. I don't feel like any physical attribute, as such feelings cannot exist. You could argue that some parts of my personality are alike cultural stereotypes of both sexes, but that is incedental as pyschological attributes cannot be of either sex.

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Rather than take exception, read my comments to you in conjunction with my previous post about the dichotomy of 'psychological sex' and 'socio-cultural gender' for a better understanding of what I'm driving at.

I can only reiterate that it is simply demonstrably true that people look at themselves in the mirror and think this is not right; this is not what I am, and although social behaviour is a massive part of us and a huge conscious psychological force, there is something deeper and more essential that we can perceive, even if it manifests itself in a nuanced and slippery way.

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And I can only reiterate that the gender disparity felt by many is most probably developed as a result of the posionus cultural expectations that dictates that one type of behaviour, character trait, thing is for one gender, and there's another for the other.

At least that is a more logical answer than an innate feeling of being another gender. I mean, would you consider it possible if let's say someone who was White skinned said that they 'feel' like a Black Skinned person. Or if we want to go even further if someone said that they felt like they were made of wood? How can you feel like something that has no feel?

There has to be a seperate logical answer.

Adam - Thanks for confirming to me that you haven't properly read anything I have said so far! If you had, you would have realised that I was saying that the only difference between men and women is physical, and that it's society's gender expectations that people conform to that I was criticising. Clearly you have not been paying attention. I'm the one saying that whatever your gender you should be judged as an individual, rather than have your personality put down to biological attributes.

And conformist is a perfectly acceptable word to use in reference to a society that accepts gender stereotypes rather than judge people as individuals. I used the word because it is the most appropriate, not because I feel I am in anyway superior, althougth it's quite amusing that it's brought out some bizarre reactionary paranoia in you.

Re: Re: Gender Map

It's 1 in the morning, but I'll bite.

Meat Pie said:

Adam - Thanks for confirming to me that you haven't properly read anything I have said so far

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Anytime.

Meat Pie said:

Clearly you have not been paying attention. I'm the one saying that whatever your gender you should be judged as an individual, rather than have your personality put down to biological attributes.

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Clearly, you've not been paying attention to society. You are judged as an individual, atleast everywhere I've been.

Meat Pie said:

rather than have your personality put down to biological attributes.

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Your lack of understanding of modern society worries me. You should take up a hobby or something mate, you'll enjoy it and meet new people.

Meat Pie said:

And conformist is a perfectly acceptable word to use in reference to a society that accepts gender stereotypes rather than judge people as individuals.

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You remind me of those goth kids from South Park. Sorry, but I just felt like pointing that out.

Meat Pie said:

although it's quite amusing that it's brought out some bizarre reactionary paranoia (Love that quote btw, how anti-conformist) in you

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Mate, I'll be honest. This post? Zero seriousness has been put into it. You know why? Because, although you're the most serious person I've ever encountered by a country mile, I can't take you seriously anymore. You know what, I'm probably the exact opposite of you when it comes to outlook on life. I have no interest in taking life seriously anymore. The way I want to live my life isn't by taking it seriously, it's by enjoying it. Carpe Diem.

PS

Yeah, this topic, kinda derailed it. Sorry. :-[

Nothing you say now is relevant to the topic or makes any kind of coherent sense. Maybe it's me but you seem to be taking my comments completely out of the context of the topic at hand so that you can make flippant irrelevant responses at attack me.

You started by asking why I think that inventing differences between genders beyond physical ones was harmful, I gave you a response, but you came back with a very confusing post. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough, but either way, jumping on the word conformist really just shows that your argument (whatever it was) must have been rather weak.

Clearly I wasn't calling you a conformist, I was just pointing out that there is a conformism (at least in my opinion, for which you are welcome to disagree) surrounding ideas of how gender should be. You just wanted brand me as someone acting superior whether or not I was doing so in this case. Well done for managing to do so. Aren't you clever.

I'd just like to ask, if sex and gender are separate, why do you use the word transgender? As surely gender remains the same throughout...is that not arguing that transsexual is the correct term?

Earthwürm said:

I'd just like to ask, if sex and gender are separate, why do you use the word transgender? As surely gender remains the same throughout...is that not arguing that transsexual is the correct term?

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'Transgender' and 'transsexual' mean two different things. A transgender person can identify as a different gender without physically transitioning. A transsexual, like myself, is some who has the condition 'gender dysphoria' - treatment of which involves physically transitioning with homeone therapy and various surgical procedures.

Okay that makes sense, but then why the need for the 'trans' part of 'transgender'? Or is it just another label that doesn't really need to exist, seeing as the persons gender doesn't actually change, it just happens to be different to what others may presume it to be.

Earthwürm said:

Okay that makes sense, but then why the need for the 'trans' part of 'transgender'? Or is it just another label that doesn't really need to exist, seeing as the persons gender doesn't actually change, it just happens to be different to what others may presume it to be.

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It's more the point that you are 'changing' from one to another. For example, a trans woman who had been living all their life as a man would be 'transcending' from their assigned gender to one they identify with.

Can I also point out that it's a bit rich that people who have never experienced gender issues are saying gender isn't important? Like I've previously said, this stuff is very relevant to my life, having experienced gender problems since I was a child. I'd appreciate it if you were to show some sensitivity.

'Labels' by their very definition are applied by other people. 'Transgender' and similar words relating to it come from within the trans* community itself. It's not really a label, and more of a word that the trans* community has chosen to define itself by. Denying the existence of transgender people is just as non-sensical as denying the existence of black people or gay people.

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Sam said:

'Labels' by their very definition are applied by other people. 'Transgender' and similar words relating to it come from within the trans* community itself.

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Technically not true, as 'transsexual' is a medical term. But the gist of what you said is correct.

As has already been pointed out, if your sex and gender align perfectly then it is very difficult to fully comprehend the two concepts as distinct (myself included). I would never deny the rights of trans* people to identify themselves with whatever labels (and pronouns, within reason*) they feel happy with however.

I've been thinking about this a bit, and the best example I could come up with was to compare it to trying to tell someone who is colour blind about two different colours they cannot distinguish. All they've really got to go on is your word that the concepts are different.

If it wasn't for the fact that I know exceptions to the rule exist, I'd have said sex and gender were one and the same, or that gender didn't exist at all - it's only the existence of trans* people that gives me any inclination that there is a distinction, though it doesn't really help me understand how such a distinction actually occurs. The argument around the social interpretations of gender roles is an interesting one, but ultimately irrelevant. Society does still differentiate (though not necessarily discriminate) between men and women, therefore someone experiencing a discrepancy between their sex and their gender identity is a logical possibility in our society. Denying people this distinction is clearly offensive to anyone dealing with the resulting issues on a daily basis.

* I've always been uncomfortable with some of the neutral pronouns such as xie/zie etc and would probably use the singular 'they'.

I'm not denying that Transgender people exist Sam, I'm just suggesting perhaps the origin of this is actually caused by identifying with societal definitions of what gender supposedly means. I however dispute societal definitions of gender which go beyond the physical. If we rid ourselves of these inaccurate and untrue self-inflicted understandings of gender, then we would deal with the bigger problem of gender divide that has left many people, myself included, feeling quite wearied of what is expected of you because of biologically attributes.

And refuting the existence of gender as a psychological existing state is not the same as denying that black people exist. If anything, saying that a psychological gender exists is as nonsensical as saying that a psychological race exists. Like if someone who was white said that they 'feel' like they are black. I think the very notion of that idea would be considered bizarre and borderline racist by many since it claims there to be an untrue psychological difference between those of one race to another, and yet when applied to gender it is not put under the same scrutiny.

Urgh... I just don't feel that I am adequately getting across what I mean, but I guess that will have to suffice.

I've been thinking a bit more about this, and I think I understand a bit more re the psychological aspect. I said to Simon this morning that I still feel it is purely a human construct and you don't see the question of gender in the animal kingdom as anything more than a physical thing... However, that got me thinking that animals DO naturally fit into make/female roles. Female birds guard eggs whilst males go out for food, etc...

And that got me thinking that perhaps there is a much more nuanced side to this than physical and social aspects. I still don't see what would cause anybody to 'feel' like one gender or another, but I understand more about it being a case of human nature that is not controlled by biology or society

EuroSatch said:

I've been thinking a bit more about this, and I think I understand a bit more re the psychological aspect. I said to Simon this morning that I still feel it is purely a human construct and you don't see the question of gender in the animal kingdom as anything more than a physical thing... However, that got me thinking that animals DO naturally fit into make/female roles. Female birds guard eggs whilst males go out for food, etc...

And that got me thinking that perhaps there is a much more nuanced side to this than physical and social aspects. I still don't see what would cause anybody to 'feel' like one gender or another, but I understand more about it being a case of human nature that is not controlled by biology or society

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Now that, to me, makes 1000 times more sense. I can start to comprehend it is phrased like this.