Gender Map

[Sam]

So, we've talked a lot about sexuality in its various shades on TST, but not much about gender. A lot of people have a common misconception that gender is binary - i.e. there are only two genders, male and female.

But gender is a lot more fluid than that. 'Male' and 'female' are only two of dozens of different gender identities, and people identify with a whole range of gender. Some even identify as genderless (having no gender) or agender (having a neutral gender).

Someone's gender can change over the course of their lifetime, or even over a week. It's hard to represent it with a singular line between male and female, so someone on the internet has invented a 'Gender Map'. It's an attempt to visually represent that gender is not just two boxes, but more of a landscape.

I thought it'd be cool if people who wanted to could put themselves on a TST gender map, and by the end we will see the whole spectrum of different genders that make up our wonderful forum. If you want to participate, download the most recent map, add your name, host it and then post it.

p.s. please no James/Maggie jokes, it's a bit obvious and cliché.

I've placed myself between 'cisgender male' (cisgender means someone who isn't transgender, so most people are cis) and 'andro' 'genderqueer'. Although physically I am quite sure that I am cisgender male, my actual gender identity in my head feels more fluid. I've felt around 70% male and 30% female for a while now, though it fluctuates. I wouldn't identify as 'trans' really, but I wouldn't identify with being purely male either.

 

[John]

This is a concept I've struggled to get my head round for a while now (since questionable content introduced a trans* character to be precise). Until that point I'd never really considered gender as being a thing distinguished from biological sex (i.e. physical characteristics). The fact that it was possible to perceive oneself as lying between male and female was something I hadn't encountered at all until relatively recently.

I don't think I define myself in any way by what's under my clothes, other than the choice of what changing rooms or toilets to use - a choice which I've always considered to have been made for me before birth. I wouldn't really consider myself to be genderless or agender but I wouldn't say I particularly 'feel' male, other than as a description of my physical sex.

*when I first saw "trans*" on an online forum I had no idea why the star was there and instinctively looked to the bottom of the post for a footnote.

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

I'm quite glad that this thread has been made, as gender is something that isn't often discussed.

I'm a woman, or a transsexual woman to be more exact. I rarely identify as a 'transsexual' nowadays, preferring to use the more accurate 'woman with a penis' description (depending on situation, obviously).

It's important that people differenciate between sex and gender. Some of the most infuriating arguments I've had have been with supposedly intelligent people, who either can't get their head around the idea or just refuse to. A simple way of explaining it is that sex is what's between your legs, gender is what's between your ears.

I know quite a few people who identify as 'genderqueer' or even completely genderless. For these people, they tend to use their own pronouns; zie and hir are amongst the ones used, although I usually use 'they' as it's easier to say. A friend of mine has a friend who changes gender whenever they feel like - as in, they'll identify as male one minute then as female the next. Unfortunately, they also expect people to use the right pronouns, even if they decide to change gender several times during a conversation (that actually happened). Genderqueer stuff can be quite hard to get your head around, depending on the person you are interacting with. Some can be quite cool and explain to you which pronouns to use, others can get angry because you don't use their preferred pronoun straight away.

On a side note, I'm quite annoyed that I'm full of cold at the moment, as I really want to write something more in-depth. As the token transsexual, I feel like I'm almost obliged to! I just hope this thread is still alive by the time I'm better.

 

[EuroSatch]

There is a lot about this map that I don't like - bit please don't confuse with a misunderstanding!

The map appears, to me at least, to be trying to categorise and label gender identities that by definition don't want to be labelled. Whilst it's suggesting there is a spectrum - which I don't believe it should be considered to be - it as pigeon-holed identities that themselves cover a whole range of identities that are personal to the individual. I'm referring to 'genderqueer' and 'andro'. Both essentially state that whoever identifies as either of these do not consider themselves to have a defined gender.

Another thing is the inclusion of 'male lesbian' which is irrelevant when trying to consider gender as separate from sexual identity. A male lesbian cannot be called so without considering their sexual identity.

However, I must say I don't understand how gender can be considered without considering sexual organs. In my mind, gender is - whilst not 100% - is defined by the sexual organs you biologically possess. Before I continue please don't read this in the way it could be construed as this isn't my intention at all. I totally understand the concept of a misalignment of mental gender and physical gender, and fully support the fact that many many people consider themselves to not be the gender the were biologically born as. However, I don't see what else could define gender if not for sexual organs? There has been a huge social shift lately that means people don't need to fit into 'gender roles' in relationships, there no longer needs to be the idea that A is a man's job and B a woman's.

I guess what I'm trying to say is to me gender is purely a physical thing, and in that sense I am male. However outside this I am a personality, nothing more. I therefore won't include myself on this map as there does not appear to be the option of being physically the gender you are born with, but actually defined by society, sex, interests etc

 

[T]

I can't add much to this but I second the above post by Satch, in it's entirety.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Nick]

Is there an option for straight male? Because I've got no idea what all those genders mean.

 

[TheMan]

Is there an option for straight male? Because I've got no idea what all those genders mean.

Ha-ha that made me laugh I felt the same!! I was looking for "Bloke".

As the token transsexual, I feel like I'm almost obliged to!

Ashlee, I think you are amazingly brave and open which is to be hugely commended. The points you made were very interesting, I think there is a responsibility upon us to explain to others if we have a complex view on life/gender/sex etc what that is - rather than as some people you know, expect people to read their minds! I take a dim view of that, and wonder how much is simply trying to be different and attention seeking, and I think it can damage peoples understanding or willingness to discuss things openly like you do - and can also help frame stereotypes. To be honest I'd be giving that person a royal rollocking for it for damaging relationships and actually contributing to misunderstanding. It makes it ever more important that people like you come out and speak openly, sensibly, and balanced about the emotions etc that you experience - so fair play. I personally find your honestly refreshing, and informative, and helps remove ignorance (in it's truest literal sense) toward this subject matter.

However... "The Token Transexual" is not a phrase I have encountered before, I hope you will forgive me for absolutely cracking up laughing at it ;D.

As for general gender discussion, I mentioned in a thread a while ago, that I believe it was studied (though goodness knows where now) and there is in fact a sliding scale from male to female with everything in between - unfortunately, you get 2 standard options that define that -an "inny" or an "outy".... that no where near defines the broad array of potentials our brains are capable of defining us by.

So as far as I know, there is indeed a scale (not a map from recollection) that covers Straight Bloke - Straight Woman and just about everything in between.

Anyone who doubts this to be natural, should take a look at the universe, and recognise how it creates planets that appear to cover just about every possible construct within a basic law.

PLANET = ROUND (Human) - after that, the Universe seemingly goes about creating every possible planetary scenario it can (sexuality/gender).

 

[GAGrathea]

Is there an option for straight male? Because I've got no idea what all those genders mean.

Being straight's a sexuality, not the same thing as gender!

 

[Nick]

Is there an option for straight male? Because I've got no idea what all those genders mean.

Being straight's a sexuality, not the same thing as gender!

Shows how much I understand all this!

 

[Bear]

Basically you've got "sex" - physically whether you're a male or female based on your bits. Then you've got "gender", which is purely psychological and is a balance of masculine and feminine traits. Men mostly have more masculine attributes, women have more feminine, and people with a more or less equal amount of both are described as "androgynous".

 

[Nick]

Basically you've got "sex" - physically whether you're a male or female based on your bits. Then you've got "gender", which is purely psychological and is a balance of masculine and feminine traits. Men mostly have more masculine attributes, women have more feminine, and people with a more or less equal amount of both are described as "androgynous".

Oh, I understand the concept, just not the terminology. I'll probably need to brush up on my Latin.

 

[GAGrathea]

Have an explanation from the ever-informative/slightly condescending/moderately annoying Laci Green:

BOYS CAN HAVE A VAG!!

 

[khalichanan]

Basically you've got "sex" - physically whether you're a male or female based on your bits. Then you've got "gender", which is purely psychological and is a balance of masculine and feminine traits. Men mostly have more masculine attributes, women have more feminine, and people with a more or less equal amount of both are described as "androgynous".

Oh, I understand the concept, just not the terminology. I'll probably need to brush up on my Latin.

Whilst sex and gender are from Latin...(but their translations don't really help much in sorting them) androgynous is from Ancient Greek.

*slithers back into shell, now offishul Latin monitoring has been monitored*

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

The map appears, to me at least, to be trying to categorise and label gender identities that by definition don't want to be labelled. Whilst it's suggesting there is a spectrum - which I don't believe it should be considered to be - it as pigeon-holed identities that themselves cover a whole range of identities that are personal to the individual. I'm referring to 'genderqueer' and 'andro'. Both essentially state that whoever identifies as either of these do not consider themselves to have a defined gender.

Labels are virtually unavoidable, particularly when it comes to lesser known identities like the ones you've mentioned. Genderqueer itself is more of an umbrella term, as not everyone who identifies that way refers to themselves in the same way. Genderqueer people sometimes use their own pronouns, or sometimes they mix it up by using masculine and feminine pronouns when they feel like it. To some, gender is nothing more than something to play around with.

Another thing is the inclusion of 'male lesbian' which is irrelevant when trying to consider gender as separate from sexual identity. A male lesbian cannot be called so without considering their sexual identity.

I'll admit, that one has me stumped. It's pretty much an oxymoron. I know Eddie Izzard used it to refer to himself at one point, but other than that I don't really know much about it.

However, I must say I don't understand how gender can be considered without considering sexual organs. In my mind, gender is - whilst not 100% - is defined by the sexual organs you biologically possess ...However, I don't see what else could define gender if not for sexual organs?

I recognise that you follow this comment by saying you don't want it to be misconstrued, and believe me I won't try to. Your mindset is one shared by a great many people. It's simply a common misconception that gender is defined by our sex. Gender is virtually all psychological - it's how you see yourself, and how others see you. It's defined by society and self.

You've also got to remember that not all cultures share our definition of gender. We have two-spirit people in Native American culture, or the Hijra in India (it must be said that Hijra face a lot of discrimination, wheras two-spirits were respected).

As you'd expect, the vast majority of my experience with gender comes from my own transition from male to female. I've always seen myself as female (not a woman in a man's body, I must add), and my transition has essentially been for me to feel comfortable being...well...me. An important part of that is my presentation, and that others accept me as my gender. Growing up, particularly during puberty, made me feel very uncomfortable. There's no doubt that my sex is different to my gender.

There has been a huge social shift lately that means people don't need to fit into 'gender roles' in relationships, there no longer needs to be the idea that A is a man's job and B a woman's.

That's more about gender equality, and recognising that giving certain jobs to people because of their gender is stupid. Anyone can do what they want, and it should have no impact on their gender.

I guess what I'm trying to say is to me gender is purely a physical thing, and in that sense I am male. However outside this I am a personality, nothing more.

If you were to wake up with the body of a woman, would that make you a woman? Remember that you've just said you identify as male, and waking up in this new body won't suddenly change your personality. Rally think about it.

I therefore won't include myself on this map as there does not appear to be the option of being physically the gender you are born with, but actually defined by society, sex, interests etc

If it's anywhere on that map, it would just be 'male'. 'Cisgender' is usually used to describe people whose gender identity matches their sex, quite surprised that isn't on there if I'm being honest.

 

[Meat Pie]

Beyond physical biological differences in gender... every other difference is learnt cultural behaviour surely... ?

I'm Male because that is my biological make-up, and I'm fine to be identified as such. Anything such as preference in what is considered 'girls' culture or 'boys' culture is utterly irrelevant as that has nothing to do with your gender. All gender-specific cultural trends such as 'males like sports' or 'females like fashion' are largely caused by cultural indoctrination.

Male or female is surely just a biological state, whether or not you prescribe to what is traditionally considered to be masculine or feminine traits?

I think the world would be such a simpler and happier place if we just saw each other as human beings rather than groups who are assumed to have certain characteristics based on cultural expectations.

If I'm honest, I haven't dedicated a lot of time to thinking about this so I could be completely incorrect in that view, but that strikes me as the most obvious conclusion to come to?

 

[EuroSatch]

I guess what I'm trying to say is to me gender is purely a physical thing, and in that sense I am male. However outside this I am a personality, nothing more.

If you were to wake up with the body of a woman, would that make you a woman? Remember that you've just said you identify as male, and waking up in this new body won't suddenly change your personality. Rally think about it.

I really don't think I can though as that's really not a realistic scenario to consider myself in. Simon has just finished reading Orlando however, and perhaps reading that could provide more of an insight into what it would be like. I have to say I would be battling through shock and wonder first though. But I think strip away the physical side and I would still be me, and I consider a personality to be genderless.

That said, it would be a very intriguing experiment and experience.

I therefore won't include myself on this map as there does not appear to be the option of being physically the gender you are born with, but actually defined by society, sex, interests etc

If it's anywhere on that map, it would just be 'male'. 'Cisgender' is usually used to describe people whose gender identity matches their sex, quite surprised that isn't on there if I'm being honest.

Cisgender is on there, but the label is validated with cissexual, which again I don't think should be considered if we are to objectively look at gender without sexuality. Ill admit though, this does encourage a lot of thought about how you see yourself

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

Beyond physical biological differences in gender... every other difference is learnt cultural behaviour surely... ?

There aren't biological differences in gender. There are biological differences in sex, however.

I'm Male because that is my biological make-up, and I'm fine to be identified as such.

Is that really the only reason you identify as a male?

Seriously, everyone sit back and think: are you really male just because you have a penis? If you woke up with a vagina, would that suddenly mean you are a woman?

Anything such as preference in what is considered 'girls' culture or 'boys' culture is utterly irrelevant as that has nothing to do with your gender. All gender-specific cultural trends such as 'males like sports' or 'females like fashion' are largely caused by cultural indoctrination.

Right - liking sports or fashion has nothing to do with your gender. I'm not a woman because I like pink, for example.

Male or female is surely just a biological state, whether or not you prescribe to what is traditionally considered to be masculine or feminine traits?

No! Like I've said countless times, I may be biologically male but I am female.

I understand that gender can be a very complicated thing. In our society, we are very much used to the idea that someone with a penis is a man, and someone with a vagina is a woman. For the most part this is true, but for some of us this isn't the case.

I know you shouldn't reference Wikipedia, but this is a rather good entry that defines gender identity. It might help some people understand this topic a little better:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

I really don't think I can though as that's really not a realistic scenario to consider myself in.

Ok. How about this:

Imagine you are a child, and you are waiting for your parents outside of school. Suddenly, a family pulls up that you've never seen before, and insists you are their child and that you come with them. They take you back 'home', and start dressing you differently and calling you by a different name. You know who you are deep down, but they insist you are someone else and therefore treat you differently.

Then, a couple of years later, your real parents find you and set you free. You are now free to be yourself - you go by YOUR name, wear the clothes you want, and do the things you like.

You'll probably say that's unrealistic too, but off the top of my (cold-filled) head that's the closest thing I can come up with to the trans experience, and what I'm trying to get at: your gender is self defined. Sometimes you get lucky and it matches up with your sex. Sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Dar]

I agree with Satch. I am male because I have a penis. I am ME because of my personality. If I were to wake up with a vagina, I would still be me but I would have to use the female toilets.

 

[Meat Pie]

If I woke up with a Vagina then yes I would be biologically a woman. My personality isn't altered, related to, or subject to gender.

What is the difference between male and female other than physical ones?

None that I can think of. Some would say that I have more 'feminine' personality traits, but I think that's rubbish since I don't consider any type of personality trait to be masculine or feminine. The idea that any trait belongs to either gender is false and is perpetuated by cultural indoctrination where children from birth are taught that boys and girls are different when in reality the only difference is physical.

There's no such thing as masculinity or femininity. There's no such thing as a male way of being or a female way of being. These are just man-made ideas. There is just the personality of individuals (often which can be shaped by cultural expectations which is what really muddies the gender discussion) and the physical differences between the two.

If I was born a female then yes my personality would very likely be different, but only because the cultural expectations I would have experienced are different.

If we could remove the silly ideas of femininity and masculinity and stop indoctrinating children into accepted ways of being based on societal prejudices about gender, I think people would be much happier.

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

If I woke up with a Vagina then yes I would be biologically a woman. My personality isn't altered, related to, or subject to gender.

Your sex would be female, obviously. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about gender, not sex.

What is the difference between male and female other than physical ones?

None that I can think of. Some would say that I have more 'feminine' personality traits, but I think that's rubbish since I don't consider any type of personality trait to be masculine or feminine. The idea that any trait belongs to either gender is false and is perpetuated by cultural indoctrination where children from birth are taught that boys and girls are different when in reality the only difference is physical.

There's no such thing as masculinity or femininity. There's no such thing as a male way of being or a female way of being. These are just man-made ideas. There is just the personality of individuals (often which can be shaped by cultural expectations which is what really muddies the gender discussion) and the physical differences between the two.

If I was born a female then yes my personality would very likely be different, but only because the cultural expectations I would have experienced are different.

If we could remove the silly ideas of femininity and masculinity and stop indoctrinating children into accepted ways of being based on societal prejudices about gender, I think people would be much happier.

Gender is simply how you identify yourself. It's not really that complicated. It's not about liking masculine or feminine things. You can identify as a man and have mostly feminine traits. Oppositely, you can identify as a woman and have mostly masculine traits. These things do not make you a man or a woman.

I identify with mostly feminine traits. But I identify as a woman simply because I do. I can't really explain it any more than that. I don't look down at my crotch and think 'I must be a man'. I hope you all understand that's why I'm having a hard time looking at these responses from people whose genitals match their gender identity, and claim their gender revolves solely on having a dick. It's not the case, and I am proof of that.

You then also have to factor in people who are born intersex; they may have different characteristics of both sexes or none. And yet, they in turn will identify in different ways, as many intersex people live normal lives as men, or women, or Genderqueer or neutral and so on.

I do agree that children shouldn't be indoctrinated into living out a certain gender based on what they are assigned at birth. In fact, when people are more open about their gender and the way they express themselves, I feel ike it will bring in a cultural revolution the likes of which we've never seen. This all begins with visibility, and it's why I am so open about being who I am.

I also think genderqueerness is more common than people think, it's just that people aren't aware of it. For example, everyone I know who is Genderqueer, or androgynous, or gender neutral, are 'queer'. Queerness is more of an ideology than anything else. The queer community is one of acceptance and general tolerance, but one of its major shortcomings is that it's very inward-facing. They rarely do anything outside of their own circles, as the queer community is also very counter-culture. On top of that, the community is like it's own bubble, and as a result a lack of understanding can come between them and the rest of society with neither side knowing what to do. It's a shame because I believe gender variance must be more common with what we already know.