Gender Map

[Dar]

I think there should be a distinction between not only sex and gender, but also gender and social influence.

There is a difference between the male and female "ideals" in the physical world, and the male and female "idea" that is ever present in your brain purely because of your personal wiring. Sometimes things get swapped in development, and your brain wiring might not match your physical wiring.

That to me is completely different to, as some have suggested others do, swapping gender identifiers because you can. Which is, in my opinion, the bit that's influenced by external stimuli.

 

[Meat Pie]

AshleeKel - You make a lot of assertions, but I can return them. If the definition of gender is that you have a psychological gender that dictates your personality, then I have to refute whether it actually exists.

Your comments that there are personality traits that are intrinsic to males and intrinsic to females is really ignorant and sexist. Yes, there are trends but that is because of the gender behaviour indoctrination system that children are born into, but it is not intrinsic, you cannot say that as it is a horrid comment born of traditional outdated stereotypes that unfortunately linger on. There is no such thing as a male or female personality trait, any more than there is a black personality trait or a gay personality trait. And yes, Sexism does make me feel uncomfortable, as it should you.

I'm not attacking you or how you define your gender, I'm attacking this horrid idea that I am somehow being controlled by a mental gender. I refuse to be put into a little labelled box rather than fairly judged as an independent human being who decides it's own mind without being stuck in some ugly gender stereotype. People are people and their personality traits are not dictated to them by any physical trait.

I am open to learning if the points make sense, and maybe there is an answer that will explain trans-gender without having to invent stereotyped gender mindsets. Your explanation is both sexist and incorrect.

 

[GAGrathea]

But society's kinda keen to shoehorn you into categories at every opportunity, is it not?

If I go to a clothes shop, there is a section for males and a section for females with distinctly different products; toilets and changing rooms are divided male/female for no good reason; the words femininity and masculinity carry overtones entirely removed from genitalia.

Surely gender, if nothing else, is taking your personal view of yourself (an intangible mix of thoughts and feelings), and phrasing it in society's terms?

 

[Meat Pie]

I agree Mags. Why are there certain types of clothes for one gender and not another? Why are girl's toys almost always pink? Why all of these things. It's an unhealthy obsession with difference that society still retains from more conservative times. It's all harmful and society shouldn't impose gender-specific behaviour.

However, I disagree in that I maintain that gender is a physical state, which has no bearing at all on who you are and what you do. The problem here is that its this difference obsessed society which is wrong, and we shouldn't be trying to fit to it's confines, labels or prejudiced gender expectations

 

[TheMan]

Look, at risk of creating havoc here lol, let me explain what is happening here.

Ashlee, is telling you how it is. She is a very balanced informed girl, listen to her and understand as I have. What you guys are debating here, is personality, you are discussing consciousness - that is completely separate from sexuality/gender etc - totally. It is an abstract concept that clearly exists - much is being done to locate it, and marvelous discoveries made.

Ashlee being a girl, is biological - it isn't a matter of personality at all. Of course you feel different as a man and a woman, 10s of thousands, perhaps 100k's of years of mother nature has made sure of that. However, as it is strongly biological/neurological then that will lead to emotions and have a bearing upon her personality of course. That is natural too.

I cannot explain all the nuances in between. However the debate is reading as I say, as more aptly defined as consciousness "who we are".

We aren't our biology, or our emotions, or our gender in terms of consciousness - but in terms of being a human, then we are. I do not like speaking of Ashlee in such terms, but you guys disagreeing are actually debating something of a differing nature - they all co-exist.

It isn't a matter of Ashlee's consciousness and/or personality. As I now understand it, she has mother natures programmed feelings/desires etc, but with an added bit that isn't needed.

That is how I understand it all anyway, and I do find the principle easy to grasp.

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

This is quite a good blog that explains the difference between gender expression and gender identity:

In order to understand what gender identity is, we’d need to eliminate everything it isn’t. If gender identity is not determined by relative masculinity or femininity (as indicated by the fact that these traits can exist in any combination with gender identity and assigned sex) then those are separate variables. If a person of any gender identity can have any sexual orientation, then that’s a separate variable. If gender can be presented or expressed in any number of ways across gender identities, then that’s a separate variable too. The only thing that is consistent across all individuals with a given gender identity (such as “man”, or “woman”, amongst others), is the deep-seated sense of identification with that concept. The term rings true. It holds meaning. Something inside of us says “yes, that’s right. That makes sense. That feels like home. That is what I am.”

“I am a woman.”

That is what gender identity is. This can often be misunderstood by cis people because they don’t need to ask the question, or consider the dimensions and location of their gender identity. For someone whose gender identity fits with what they’ve been assigned and told, it can feel like simply a given, and in fact be confused with sex, gender role, or gender assignment, or even sexual orientation. When all those things line up tidily, it becomes very difficult to see where one ends and another begins. Instead one has the sense that they all form a continuous whole, the one flowing from the other. “I’m attracted to women because I’m masculine because I’m a man because I have a penis because I’m a man because I’m masculine because I’m attracted to women”. It can all be taken at face value, and taken for granted, which can even give cis people the impression that they don’t even have a gender identity (or at least not a gender identity that’s distinct from either their physiological sex or expressed role). It also becomes profoundly difficult for a cis person to understand what, exactly, gender identity is at all if it is distinct from gender expression, gender role, physiological sex, or sexual orientation.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/03/21/gender-expression-is-not-gender-identity/

 

[EuroSatch]

What I don't understand is why people let gender be such a big issue. Gender means no more than having a penis or a vagina. Everything else is your personality. By identifying yourself as female when you have a penis, what does this actually mean then?

You should be glad that you don't understand why gender can be a big issue. Really, you should. Your won't have to suffer the anguish I have, and that's the only way you could truly understand it.

Identifying as a female when I have a penis means my gender is female. I am sick of having to repeat this over and over.

There's really only two ways of seeing gender and that's either that it is purely physical, or that it is a psychological difference which impacts on your personality, in which case that's an incredibly bold statement which I really rather resent as it's firstly untrue, and secondly it perpetuates the idea there is a male mindset and personality which is completely different from female mindset and personality. I find that idea offensive as it's a profoundly sexist.

Gender is how you see yourself. It's how you identify. You're making this a lot harder than it needs to be. On top of that, there are more gender identities than just male or female.

AshleeKel - That doesn't remotely come close to answering my questions. Male and Female are both words that have to actually mean something. You either say it's a physical difference or it is a mental/personality difference. Can you please clarify your position on that as it's still very vague to me.

Sex is physical. Gender is mental.

Do you think there are personality characteristics that are specific to females and personality characteristics specific to males? If so, how can you not see that as a sexist position? Personalities are not effected by gender and to say so is to somehow claim that there are intrinsic mental differences between the genders.

There are personality traits more common to females, and personality traits more common to males. Having these traits alone doesn't make you that gender. But sharing a lot of these traits can make you start to identify in such a way. But then it goes further, and eventually leads away from gender and towards sex. This is why people like myself go through gender reassignment, because we identify with female traits, social situations and so on to the point where we actually are women.

As another point, this is a difference between transgender and transsexual.

I feel massively uncomfortable with the implications of such a claim. Gender has as much bearing on any of these issues as the genetics which decide the colour of hair.

Oh, you feel uncomfortable? How do you think I feel? I'm having people questioning my gender, telling me it's not important. I've seen so many threads on this site that seem very open minded, especially when it comes to things like gay rights. But right now, I feel attacked for my gender identity and it's actually quite upsetting. Please bear in mind that all this stuff is very relevant to my life.

Trans* issues are complex. I understand that. But so many voices in this thread don't seem to be open to learning.

Please don't see it this way. I'm certainly not questioning your gender, and I'm not saying its unimportant. Im saying I have difficulty understanding what controls how we identify our gender if not through physical and social criteria, which is what was previously suggested.

However it seems from your passage a few posts above that it is indeed society and culture that creates the abstract dimorphism of male and female.

My point all along and as have others been is to challenge this necessity to fit into labels. As Gags has said, we do strive to be labelled, to be able to fit in. But I disagree with labelling as it promotes conformity. I am a homosexual male, and that decides two things in my life - who I have a relationship with, and how I have sex with them. Everything else I do is a choice. I wear male clothes because a) I am more comfortable in the fit, and b) yes I do prefer the fashion - but that itself is down to social challenges. I admire people who wear less gender-defined clothing, and fashion over the years has drifted both away from and towards a genderless fashion market.

Besides that I am not male or female. I keep the company of both. I read books, watch film/TV and do activities that both males and females enjoy. Nothing else in my life is controlled be being male or female. To again answer the question earlier - if I was to wake up female I imagine I would carry on my life as normal, but be very surprised that my penis is missing. I wouldn't go from playing with GI Joe to Barbie dolls. I used to play with my best friends Barbie dolls as a child, but that didn't influence me to feel I was a girl.

So to me I think gender does come down to the idea of conformity to a particular role, and I don't wish to live my life in such a defined role. It certainly appears that it is controlled by social and cultural influences that are a human concept.

Interestingly, nobody has mentioned gender in other species than males. Look at seahorses - the male performs what is considered to be the female role by carrying the fertilised eggs before they hatch. This would therefore mean that sex is purely physical and there is no gender identity in this species, which leads me to believe it is a human invention.

AshleeKel - don't feel attacked. I can't speak for others but I'm certainly not attacking you for your identity. I'm fully supportive of all trans issues, and I think that as the only open trans (and not sure whether to add the suffix gender or sexual here) member of the forum unfortunately a lot of questions will go direct to you. However I am intrigued as to what is more determining your gender if not your physical attributes. Don't read it as not understating that you identify as one gender but are physically another.

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

Ive decided to post in here despite the thread dying down because I feel I need to clear thins up. As a transsexual the very notion that people are stressing that 'gender is physical' is harmful to me.

The reason why this is hurtful is because this is the kind of thought process that is used to attack people like myself. In the past few years alone I have suffered abuse, ridicule, sexual harassment, losing friends, being turned down for jobs and almost being cut out of my family. This was all because of the notion that gender is physical. And the surprising thing is, I've had it lucky. People are beaten, raped and murdered because of this thought process. Hundreds of people lose their lives every year because of transphobia. So this is something I take very seriously.

None of you have to deal with this. Luckily for you, your sex matches your gender. Nobody is challenging that, so you can be safe that you are being accepted for your identity. In essence, you are speaking from a position of privilege. But for me, that's not the case. In this thread, I've seen people talk about how having a penis makes you a man, and that's that. Hell, someone actually outright says it:

Who you are as a person, is just that. I don't see the point in giving your self a label. You can say you are a girl trapped in a man's body, or vis virsa but alas you are still a man, (until you go all the way in terms of sex change)

I need to note that Fredward sent me a private message afterwards apologising for upsetting me. But the fact that this even came up, in a forum that BigT criticised for being 'too liberal', really needs to be addressed. Trans* rights are decades behind LGB rights. There is a distinct lack of understanding as to what we are, and is regularly accepted that whatever genitalia we possessed at birth, that's what we are.

Firstly, back to basics. 'Sex' is what is referred to as 'between your legs'. These are the physical attributes you are born with. However, this isn't always so clear cut as 'male' or 'female'. We know what the accepted male and female anatomies are - penis for men, vagina and breasts for women - but some people are also born with various physical features that could belong to either sex. This is what is known as 'intersex'. So if we follow the definition that sex = gender, then how would you define an intersex person?

The simple answer is, you can't. People try - there have been many intersex babies born where the parents have made them have certain operations to 'make' them one sex or the other. For example, a baby could be born with both male and female genitalia and the parents would decide to raise the child as a girl. Therefore, an operation would be performed that would remove the penis and the baby would then be raised female.

Biologically speaking, the baby is still the same as before. They've had an operation to look a certain way, but their sex still lies between male and female.

So where does gender come into all this, then? Going back to the classic saying, sex is between your legs but gender is between your ears. Gender is how you perceive yourself. And unfortunately, this is where it gets complicated.

I want to stress again that gender is quite complex. From what I've gathered, the vast majority of people on this forum have never had any issues relating to gender. I'm gathering this is why people like Meat Pie are finding the idea that characteristics can be traits of genders offensive. For example, nurturing is seen as a feminine trait whereas independence is seen to be male. Obviously, this is bullshit - you can get men who are dependant, emotional and passive. You can get women who are aggressive, competitive and strong. All men will have some 'so-called' feminine traits and all women will have some 'so-called' masculine traits. Lots of different cultures attribute different traits to different genders.

So it can be accepted that having certain traits does not make you one gender or another. So what does? Is it the way you express yourself? Again...no. Liking pink does not make you female, and liking blue does not make you male. Over 100 years ago, pink was the colour for boys and blue was the colour for girls! Having certain interests or a certain style doesn't make you that gender either. In the modern world, we see butch women who present themselves in quite a stereotypical masculine way for example.

So where does somebody like me fit in? As I've mentioned countless times, I identify as a woman. But I'm not a woman because I share some personality traits that our society has deemed feminine. I'm not a woman because I like feminine 'things' either. Charles Kane, a millionaire who rushed into having GRS after being misdiagnosed with gender dysphoria, once claimed that he didn't think he was a woman because he hated shopping. That means nothing - plenty of women hate shopping, just as plenty of men love it.

But society does play a major part in gender identity. We are social animals - this is how we interact with each other. I dress in a feminine way, I act in a feminine way and so on. But then, I could do all these things, still identify as a male, and therefore still be a man.

So, what makes me a woman? It's simply the feeling inside of me. It's the knowledge that this is who I am.

Growing up, I always identified with what society had perceived to be feminine. I saw two gender binaries that were present and identified with one that was not assigned to me at birth. I developed a dysphoria because I didn't match up with the way I saw myself. This is why I have transitioned to female. In the simplest terms, whether you like this answer or not, this is why people like me exist.

Having a particular set of genitals has no bearing on how I identify myself. But I must also stress that I am also going through a physical transition too. I have been taking oestrogen pills and will be having GRS later this year. This is all to make the physical part of me, my sex, match the mental part of me, my gender.

In a hypothetical world where gender didn't exist, I would still be the exact same person I am now. I'd still wear feminine things, present in a feminine way and even medically transition to be female.

I need to stress, again, that there are more gender identities than just male and female. Different societies have many more - some as many as five! There are also gender neutral and genderqueer people.

You may think gender equals sex because for you, there is no discrepancy between the two. But because I do, I have cause to question it. Gender politics is by complicated, so I understand if you don't understand. I'll leave you with one last statement:

I'm female because I identify with what I perceive to be female.

 

[Sam]

I will throw in my two cents, I would say Gender and sex is the same thing, in fact the dictionary confirms this.

And that is to do with whether you have a penis or vagina

Who you are as a person, is just that. I don't see the point in giving your self a label. You can say you are a girl trapped in a man's body, or vis virsa but alas you are still a man, (until you go all the way in terms of sex change)

I hope you never have to suffer the pain of society at large not recognising you for the gender you truly are, and always have been, just because of the shape of the genetalia between your legs.

 

[Simon]

Ashlee, a great post.

The idea of 'gender' is indeed a complicated one. What seems clear from the posts of many on here (not you) is that social and cultural expectations muddy the waters when thinking about "gender" and this leads to confusion. I don't think the people who have been confused by this are coming at it from a position of transphobia, or of wanting to cause any offence to you. I think we are an open-minded group of people, and much of what has been said has been said from open and honest ideas, with many acknowledging they are confused or uninformed. (I'm not talking about exceptions, I'm talking about the overall spirit the thread).

The pressure to conform is a massive social and cultural force. You should never feel that people saying that it's a 'mere' question of going against the grain of social attitudes are insulting or degrading the difficult choices that you have been forced to make because of who you are. That deserves a massive amount of respect and admiration. Having to do this, or live your life denying who you are is something that would overwhelm many.

Here's a thought though: make of it what you will. Could the social/psychological idea of gender be separated out?

As it has been firmly and correctly established, gender is what is between your ears including a. how you identify and b. no less crucially (and undeniably) how you interact with a social and cultural framework that 'governs' gendered behaviour. While a interacts with b, it could be seen as a separate, nuanced but discrete area, could it not? I have heard this particular aspect of gender described (and perhaps the phrase is clumsy) as the "psychological sex" - which does not necessarily align with the "physical sex".

You may think I'm drawing needless distinctions, but thinking about it like this does allow for the idea that those who are cis-sexual (same parts as psyche) and trans-sexual (parts and psyche different) are separated from the socio-cultural area of "gendered behaviour", which can help to inform, but not necessarily define, people's identities.

 

[Harv]

In my opinion;

Gender - male or female. If you have a penis, you are male. If you have a vagina, you are female. Hermaphrodites are the only exception to this.

Sexuality - can be anything under the Sun; male attracted to females, female attracted to females, transvestite attracted to groups of men - it doesn't matter.

---

Sorry if that offends anyone but that's the way I see it.

 

[Simon]

 

[Sam]

Gender - male or female. If you have a penis, you are male. If you have a vagina, you are female. Hermaphrodites are the only exception to this.

Sexuality - can be anything under the Sun; male attracted to females, female attracted to females, transvestite attracted to groups of men - it doesn't matter.

You're confusing gender with sex, and sexuality is irrelevant to sex or gender.

 

[BarryZola]

From Oxford Dictionaries online:

Definition of gender
noun

1 [mass noun] the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones):traditional concepts of gender
[count noun] the members of one or other sex:differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age


So there we have it, can't argue with the Oxford Dictionary

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

In my opinion;

Gender - male or female. If you have a penis, you are male. If you have a vagina, you are female. Hermaphrodites are the only exception to this.

Sexuality - can be anything under the Sun; male attracted to females, female attracted to females, transvestite attracted to groups of men - it doesn't matter.

---

Sorry if that offends anyone but that's the way I see it.

---

I've been trying to think of a reply which isn't just "go read my post again".

...nope, that's all I got. Go read my post again.

Also: hermaphrodite is considered offensive. 'Intersex' is the term now used.

 

[Meat Pie]

The problem here is if we are not using unfair stereotypes which make out that male and female minds are different, and we are not using physical criteria, then I simply have no idea what 'feeling' like a gender means.

And no, my gender isn't inline with my sex, because I don't recognise gender as exisisting beyond the physical. I don't see how someone can 'feel' like a female anymore then they can 'feel' like someone with black skin or 'feel' like someone with blonde hair. I do not feel like a male because that is not a feeling, and likewise I do not feel female because that is not a feeling.

You cannot feel like a biological attribute. Feeling like someone who is gay doesn't feel different from being someone who is straight, and being a male does not feel different from being female. By all means someone can feel that they embody the traditional incorrect stereotypes of a male or female that culture has invented, but that is not the same as what is being proposed.

Of course I condemn any abuse of transpeople, and I despise intolerance of all kinds, but what I'm suggesting here is that gender is an invented concept that we would be better without, rather than conforming to harmful ideas that there is difference between men and women.

 

[Sam]

It worries me that someone with transphobic views (Harvey) is a supporter of the Green Party, which has an excellent record on supporting LGB and trans* liberation. I hope this isn't indicative of the rest of the party's membership, which I had always assumed were almost all progressive on gender issues.

 

[Adam]

rather than conforming to harmful ideas that there is difference between men and women.

Out of interest, why do you think that "conforming" to the idea that men and women are different is harmful?

 

[Simon]

Meat Pie, in your conclusions, trans people are logically excluded from existing. This is demonstrably not the case.

In any event, I think you're wrong. I do feel gay and I do feel tall and I feel like my genitals match my brain. Maybe it's more difficult to discern this as a feeling if everything matches up. As Ashlee says, you're looking at this from a privileged position that she doesn't share.

 

[Sam]

The solution to racism isn't to eradicate race. The solution to sexism isn't to eradicate gender/sex. The solution to homophobia isn't to move into some sort of post-sexuality bisexual society.

You can create 'equality in diversity'. Many people are proud of their gender, or ethnic origin, or sexuality. They often have a very strong cultural history, and a proud heritage. People are just as within their rights to identify with any of the above traits as they are to identify as a supporter of a particular football club, or a fan of a genre of music. My homosexuality is more than just a 'biological trait' to me, as it dominates my social life and friendship network.

Meat Pie, I think although your views are well-intentioned, they are a little naïve. The road to equality does not include the eradication of difference. I suggest you read AshleeKel's posts again carefully, recognising that this is the view of a trans* person, a viewpoint that you and I are unlikely to ever be able to have in our lifetimes. That doesn't automatically make everything she says on trans* issues correct, but it gives her views a lot more weight than mine, or Simon's. Please think about what she's said, and that even if you feel that you are 'genderless', other people's gender forms an important part of their identity, and it is not simply an 'invented concept'.