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2020: General Discussion

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Swarm Chris said:
If it's a structural issue, there'll be a bit of track somewhere, even if quite small, that can't take that bit of extra speed and in-turn force. So I'd assume the addition of the trims has then neutered what was the original plan for the speed and feeling of the ride everywhere else.

All in all, a bit of an embarrassment for Intamin. As they should have figured out their structural modelling by 2008-10 when it was in design.
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This is incorrect about a part of the ride not being able to take a bit of extra speed. Everything and I mean absolutely everything ever built is 'over-engineered', things, items, structures, or whatever has been designed should be able to withstand much stronger forces than it is designed to take on a day-to-day basis. There will be a safety factor of 7, which means if a piece of metal needs to take a load of 10 tons, the actual piece of metal will be able to withstand x7 (or more) of this load.
 
Seven times? Are you sure? That sounds ridiculously overengineered. I thought safety margins were something like 25%.

In any case it's irrelevant what the safety margin is. If the manufacturer says something is good for 100N, 20psi, 30A or whatever then that's all it should be used for. It would not be permitted to exceed that rating by design simply because there's a safety margin.
 
Alsty said:
Seven times? Are you sure? That sounds ridiculously overengineered. I thought safety margins were something like 25%.

In any case it's irrelevant what the safety margin is. If the manufacturer says something is good for 100N, 20psi, 30A or whatever then that's all it should be used for. It would not be permitted to exceed that rating by design simply because there's a safety margin.
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In aviation safety critical components need to be in groups of 3 as a general rule, i Assume it's similar here.

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That's not disputed, but one might question the competence of a rollercoaster manufacturer with 43 years experience* that can't calculate a train's speed through a block section.

* as of 2010 when Thirteen opened
 
imanautie said:
In aviation safety critical components need to be in groups of 3 as a general rule, i Assume it's similar here.
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Hmm... not always. Kind of difficult to have triple redundancy on a twin engined aircraft (which is all most airlines will be flying from now on as they ground / early retire their 747's and A380's). And before you mention it, I know about ETOPS certification that ensures twin engined aircraft always fly within a suitable distance of a diversion airport.

On modern rollercoasters such as B&M rides, there are normally two control PLC (programmed logic computers) controlling the ride. Each PLC is running different code and is linked to it's own set of sensors / proximity switches around the ride track. This is why you often see switches paired up on opposite rails of the track - each side is reporting back to a different PLC. There is then a third system running to check that the primary two PLC's are always in agreement and detecting trains as being in the same places etc. As soon as there is any discrepancy, the ride is shut down and trains all stop at their next safe stopping point (normally anywhere between the start of the main brake-run and top of the lift, or on a mid-course brake run where fitted).
 
Alsty said:
That's not disputed, but one might question the competence of a rollercoaster manufacturer with 43 years experience* that can't calculate a train's speed through a block section.

* as of 2010 when Thirteen opened
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Have you not been on another Intamin ride? They aren't the masters of subtlety with anything, let alone trims
 
imanautie said:
In aviation safety critical components need to be in groups of 3 as a general rule, i Assume it's similar here.

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You're on about the Safety Performance Levels of components, depending on how critical they are in relation to the system, they'll need redundant components as part of the process depending on the risk.

@Alsty If you look at some safety factors, they range from a high 8 to 1, obviously, this is dependant on the material and stresses imposed, but it's not uncommon and it is definitely standard to over-engineer stuff.
 
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From what I gather with TH13TEEN is that it often overran which caused it to stop of the second lift. If you ever remember in its opening year it constantly broke down, always with one on the second lift.

So intamin just added the trims, which are either on or off.

You’ll see in the station there is a sensor just below the op cabin, about head height. If the laser is broke then the trims will be on. If the laser isn’t broke (as the train is empty) the trims stay off. That is why it has a minimum number of people, as you could have one person on the train and the trims would come on due to the sensor being broke, you then have a chance the ride could stall.

I guess as it was retrofitted and probs the cheapest option it’s done like that. Other rides would weigh the train or have different amount of trims.
 
Do people think ERT will still be offered? Everyone rushing to a select one or two rides at the start of the day doesn't seem like a fantastic idea for social distancing and spreading out the crowds.
 
MakoMania said:
Do people think ERT will still be offered? Everyone rushing to a select one or two rides at the start of the day doesn't seem like a fantastic idea for social distancing and spreading out the crowds.
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This actually raises an additional question, which is how they'll manage all guests arriving at the same time anyway. Pretty much all other tourist attractions that have opened have time slots for arrival spread throughout the day to prevent crowds at the entrance - and I don't believe any of these attractions have the additional pinch point of security and temperature checks.
 
Matt N said:
With regard to Thirteen’s trims; I thought trims adjusted themselves dependant on the mass and speed of the train, to get the train to a certain desired speed? That’s what the trims on B&M rides like Mako do, anyway...
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If I'm not mistaken Th13teen's trims are magnetic (which Intamin use for all of their rides) whereas B&M tend to use mechanical trims. I believe the type of trim Th13teen uses cannot automatically adjust according to train speed/weight due to its limitations in design.

Saying that, even though the trims are limited to 'on and off', they can be adjusted with the amount of braking forced on trains as I believe in 2012/2013 there were adjustments made to the trims to allow the ride to run faster.

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I know a lot of people are negative about the trims. Personally I've never found them that much of an issue and find the first drop does pack a good punch. It does get boring on the final turn at the end of the outdoor section when it meanders to the second lift hill, however you're rewarded with the drop and great backwards helix, every silver lining...

Intamin's engineering is questionable, however for what the ride is, a family thrill ride. It's a good solid, fun ride. I'm casually brushing the marketing under a carpet as that's a whole other topic!
 
Swarm Chris said:
This actually raises an additional question, which is how they'll manage all guests arriving at the same time anyway. Pretty much all other tourist attractions that have opened have time slots for arrival spread throughout the day to prevent crowds at the entrance - and I don't believe any of these attractions have the additional pinch point of security and temperature checks.
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But how can it be fair that in the situation of 2 guests paying the same for a ticket, one might have access to the park 30-45 minutes before the other? The park hours are short enough as it is.
 
MakoMania said:
But how can it be fair that in the situation of 2 guests paying the same for a ticket, one might have access to the park 30-45 minutes before the other? The park hours are short enough as it is.
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Because the guests get some control as to what time they pick.
They could also run ert for an hour to give more of a buffer for time slots.


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I'm sure they're looking at plenty of options, but the park does have the space to carry out Pre-entry checks in stages. For example, looking at Chessington they were able to perform temperature checks for those arriving by car before parking, speeding up things on the entrance plaza.

You'll likely see similar things at Towers to keep things moving, to prevent a bottleneck in one location before people get through the tunstiles. I'm sure they have a number of options gameplanned, but all rests on the actual guidelines they're issued hopefully in the coming days.
 
Effective crowd control is certainly going to be key. It's clearly possible, as Universal are managing, and Towers has an abundance of space.

Perhaps zoos and gardens in the UK are doing timed entry as they simply don't have the amount of staff who can be positioned on admissions at opening, compared to a theme park.
 
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