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[2023] The Curse at Alton Manor

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My thinking is that the distorted music box version of ITHOTMK heard during the phone voicemail message the park ran during Scarefest could be an extract from the new soundtrack.

It sounded very IMAScore to me…
 
If I could choose what music the refurb will have, it would be the original Graham Smart music, but as this is very unlikely, I wouldn't be averse to a new IMAScore track.
 
Matt N said:
What makes you say that @Trooper Looper? I couldn’t make out what theming Shawn was zooming in on in the video.

The copious amount of skips would suggest, however, that a lot of theming is being removed. What I’ve seen so far reinforces my suspicion that we will be riding a pretty different ride to either of the previous iterations in 2023.
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I agree, I'll actually be incredibly surprised if even 10% of the rides most recent theming remains. The closure 2 months before the end of the season was a massive hint to me that it's not just a few scene changes and a clean up.
 
Could we expect them to start adding the new theming into the ride very soon as they've had nearly 4 months now. They've only got 3 months left if they want it to be ready for the 2023 season.
 
Trooper Looper said:
Could we expect them to start adding the new theming into the ride very soon as they've had nearly 4 months now. They've only got 3 months left if they want it to be ready for the 2023 season.
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I hope so but are we sure Towers is pushing for a March re-opening? It might not be ready for the beginning of the season if the refurb is very extensive as it seems to be.
 
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Trooper Looper said:
But why close it early in September if it won't be ready for the 2023 season opening day?
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If it isn’t ready for the start of the 2023 season, and it needs, say, 8 months to complete the refurb (hypothetically), then a September closing would allow the retheme to open in May 2023, while an end of season closing would only allow the retheme to open in July 2023. The park will surely want the rethemed ride to open as early in the season as possible, and with Nemesis being down, I doubt the park wants Duel shut for much of 2023. Therefore, if a longer timescale was needed, then the park may have shifted the refurbishment timeframe into the 2022 season to allow for that to happen.

Personally, I am expecting this to open at the start of the season in March. Even for a full retheme, 6 months (probably closer to 6.5, in fact, seeing as the ride shut at the very beginning of September and the park reopens in mid-March) should be more than adequate, and the park will surely want as much capacity as they can get from day one with Nemesis being closed in 2023.

As for when new theming should begin to be installed; I wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve already installed a significant amount of new stuff in there. There’s no real reason for them to leave new theming outside like they have with the old theming being scrapped, and the park may have purposely had the new theming delivered and put into the building at a time where influencers were unlikely to be watching the site (i.e. outside of park hours). Just because they’re still ripping stuff out, it doesn’t mean that they haven’t installed anything new yet. I’d wager that the opposite is likely to be the case; I’d be very surprised if nothing new has been installed yet.
 
Matt N said:
If it isn’t ready for the start of the 2023 season, and it needs, say, 8 months to complete the refurb (hypothetically), then a September closing would allow the retheme to open in May 2023, while an end of season closing would only allow the retheme to open in July 2023. The park will surely want the rethemed ride to open as early in the season as possible, and with Nemesis being down, I doubt the park wants Duel shut for much of 2023. Therefore, if a longer timescale was needed, then the park may have shifted the refurbishment timeframe into the 2022 season to allow for that to happen.

Personally, I am expecting this to open at the start of the season in March. Even for a full retheme, 6 months (probably closer to 6.5, in fact, seeing as the ride shut at the very beginning of September and the park reopens in mid-March) should be more than adequate, and the park will surely want as much capacity as they can get from day one with Nemesis being closed in 2023.

As for when new theming should begin to be installed; I wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve already installed a significant amount of new stuff in there. There’s no real reason for them to leave new theming outside like they have with the old theming being scrapped, and the park may have purposely had the new theming delivered and put into the building at a time where influencers were unlikely to be watching the site (i.e. outside of park hours). Just because they’re still ripping stuff out, it doesn’t mean that they haven’t installed anything new yet. I’d wager that the opposite is likely to be the case; I’d be very surprised if nothing new has been installed yet.
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If they're still ripping stuff out while also adding in stuff at the same time, I wouldn't consider that very professional. A refurb or construction is always done in steps, not a 'feel like when to do it' siruation. They rip the stuff out, THEN prepare for the new additions, then get them in. If they do both, it'll just be very confusing for many on site workers. I mean, look at Apocalypse, they took it down (and still are) but they haven't immediately start construction on the new ride and theming. I believe they're treating Duels refurb in a very similar, if not, the same manner.
 
Trooper Looper said:
If they're still ripping stuff out while also adding in stuff at the same time, I wouldn't consider that very professional. A refurb or construction is always done in steps, not a 'feel like when to do it' siruation. They rip the stuff out, THEN prepare for the new additions, then get them in. If they do both, it'll just be very confusing for many on site workers. I mean, look at Apocalypse, they took it down (and still are) but they haven't immediately start construction on the new ride and theming. I believe they're treating Duels refurb in a very similar, if not, the same manner.
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Perhaps they have separate teams working on each? Maybe one team of workers is installing a new scene while another removes an old one?

Surely some degree of concurrency would not be unheard of in a project like this?

I think Apocalypse is slightly different, because you need that ride gone before you can start construction on its rumoured replacement. That is quite literally a case of one whole ride going and another whole ride replacing it. If it is being replaced by a roller coaster as suggested, then you need that area cleared before you can build a new ride there.

With a dark ride retheme, however, surely you could install new theming in one scene while another is still having old theming removed?
 
Matt N said:
Perhaps they have separate teams working on each? Maybe one team of workers is installing a new scene while another removes an old one?

Surely some degree of concurrency would not be unheard of in a project like this?

I think Apocalypse is slightly different, because you need that ride gone before you can start construction on its rumoured replacement. With a dark ride, however, surely you could do one scene while another is still having old theming removed?
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Well, from what I've heard a while back, the team working on duel is very small, supposedly around 20-25 people working on it, take it with a pinch of salt for this topic though. Even with half the team Working on different aspects, it wouldn't be adequate for only 10-13 people taking a huge role in a rides refurb. That's around the same amount of people that worked on Duels 2018 TLC, 10 people minimum.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if a small team is already planning on the new set pieces and how they'll tick in the space of whatever they're replacing.

The same goes with Duel as it does to Apocalypse, you need those scenes to be gone to begin adding in new scenes into the ride.
 
Trooper Looper said:
Well, from what I've heard a while back, the team working on duel is very small, supposedly around 20-25 people working on it, take it with a pinch of salt for this topic though. Even with half the team Working on different aspects, it wouldn't be adequate for only 10-13 people taking a huge role in a rides refurb. That's around the same amount of people that worked on Duels 2018 TLC, 10 people minimum.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if a small team is already planning on the new set pieces and how they'll tick in the space of whatever they're replacing.

The same goes with Duel as it does to Apocalypse, you need those scenes to be gone to begin adding in new scenes into the ride.
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How do we know about the team size? I don’t ever remember the team size being mentioned, and 20-25 sounds very small to me… surely with MMM involved as well, it would be a bit larger than that? If I’m remembering correctly, Duel’s TLC refurb was handled 100% internally by Alton Towers, with no MMM involvement whatsoever. If MMM are involved too, I’d imagine that the team size is a fair bit bigger.

I know it’s vastly different, but the only time I ever remember team size being mentioned in a project, even in terms of rumours, was when Thorpe Park boasted about how “over 1,000 specialists” worked on Derren Brown’s Ghost Train. I’m aware that this was a ground-up £30m (rumoured) world’s first dark ride taking 18 months to build rather than a £3-5m (rumoured) dark ride retheme taking 6 months (rumoured) to build, but if DBGT had “over 1,000” people working on it, 20 people working on Duel seems like an absolutely minute amount by comparison. Yes, I know that Duel is a smaller, less complex project than DBGT, but surely it isn’t small enough to warrant a development team only 2% of the size of DBGT’s?

In terms of a dark ride retheme like this, I’d have thought that it could be broken down into individual scenes and the team could divide and conquer. Many projects these days are managed using Agile Methods, which is where a large team dealing with a big thing is broken down into smaller teams who each deal with a smaller aspect of the development. Agile is also an iterative method, where only small steps of the process are dealt with at any one time.

Admittedly, theme park rides are typically more suited to the Waterfall methodology, where one thing can only be done after the previous step has been completed, but in the context of a dark ride, where the completion of one scene does not necessarily require all of the previous scenes to be completed, some aspects of Agile may work a little better. On a individual scene basis, I absolutely agree that the old theming from a scene needs to be gone before you can install new theming in that scene, but surely new theming could be installed in, say, the Sinister Garden while the Tunnel of Doom is still being removed?

With something like a roller coaster, you can’t build or test only one part of it because you need all of the other parts of it completed. With a dark ride, however, each individual scene is not necessarily reliant on the other scenes from a technical/functional standpoint, so surely you could get started on installing new theming in one scene while another scene is still being demolished?
 
Trooper Looper said:
If they're still ripping stuff out while also adding in stuff at the same time, I wouldn't consider that very professional. A refurb or construction is always done in steps, not a 'feel like when to do it' siruation. They rip the stuff out, THEN prepare for the new additions, then get them in. If they do both, it'll just be very confusing for many on site workers. I mean, look at Apocalypse, they took it down (and still are) but they haven't immediately start construction on the new ride and theming. I believe they're treating Duels refurb in a very similar, if not, the same manner.
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With the greatest of respect...but who exactly are you to judge what is considered professional here?
What is your knowledge and experience regarding the matter?
Are you an actual expert in the field?
What is happening is inside a closed shed, and being kept behind closed doors...we haven't the slightest idea what is going on inside, but it is being done by experienced professionals...not young thoosies with no real experience in the matter.
Big shed, big job, lots of space inside, I'm sure there is an appropriate scheme of works planned for the task.
Unless you know better of course.
 
I am sorry but I have to agree with Rob here. Welcome to the real world, the world with budgets and schedules.

Saying something is not preofessional because it does not meet your premeditated assumptions and expectations, which I presume are based on absoloulty no experience or knowledge in the field, is pretty disrespectful to talented teams of people who work really hard to produce these attractions.
 
Matt N said:
How do we know about the team size? I don’t ever remember the team size being mentioned, and 20-25 sounds very small to me… surely with MMM involved as well, it would be a bit larger than that? If I’m remembering correctly, Duel’s TLC refurb was handled 100% internally by Alton Towers, with no MMM involvement whatsoever. If MMM are involved too, I’d imagine that the team size is a fair bit bigger.

I know it’s vastly different, but the only time I ever remember team size being mentioned in a project, even in terms of rumours, was when Thorpe Park boasted about how “over 1,000 specialists” worked on Derren Brown’s Ghost Train. I’m aware that this was a ground-up £30m (rumoured) world’s first dark ride taking 18 months to build rather than a £3-5m (rumoured) dark ride retheme taking 6 months (rumoured) to build, but if DBGT had “over 1,000” people working on it, 20 people working on Duel seems like an absolutely minute amount by comparison. Yes, I know that Duel is a smaller, less complex project than DBGT, but surely it isn’t small enough to warrant a development team only 2% of the size of DBGT’s?

In terms of a dark ride retheme like this, I’d have thought that it could be broken down into individual scenes and the team could divide and conquer. Many projects these days are managed using Agile Methods, which is where a large team dealing with a big thing is broken down into smaller teams who each deal with a smaller aspect of the development. Agile is also an iterative method, where only small steps of the process are dealt with at any one time.

Admittedly, theme park rides are typically more suited to the Waterfall methodology, where one thing can only be done after the previous step has been completed, but in the context of a dark ride, where the completion of one scene does not necessarily require all of the previous scenes to be completed, some aspects of Agile may work a little better. On a individual scene basis, I absolutely agree that the old theming from a scene needs to be gone before you can install new theming in that scene, but surely new theming could be installed in, say, the Sinister Garden while the Tunnel of Doom is still being removed?

With something like a roller coaster, you can’t build or test only one part of it because you need all of the other parts of it completed. With a dark ride, however, each individual scene is not necessarily reliant on the other scenes from a technical/functional standpoint, so surely you could get started on installing new theming in one scene while another scene is still being demolished?
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Again, that's why I said take it with a pinch of salt about the size of the team, and with all the photos on how much has been gutted, it's more than likely to be a bigger size than 25.

When it comes to brand new rides from the ground up, a big team is expected, but a retheme or a refurb, it would be considerably smaller by a lot. DBGTs team had to focus on things like, foundation planning, architecture, concept art, interior structure, new tech, and how to use the immense budget. With Duel, they have most of that, and all they have to do really is new props, new mechanics, new set pieces, and some new tech such as Better speakers and lighting, which can easily be done by a small Tech team if given the time.

Terror Tombs refurb from The 5th Dimension had around 60 people from Farmer working on it, planning wise anyway, because they had to create an entirely different style and Genre from the 5th Dimension, a sci fi ride to an Egyptian Curse, so they had to replace Literally everything inside except from the System. Duels refurb is pretty much 100% going to still be a haunted ride, so much of the context of what they're aiming for is in there already at the very basics. All they need to do is add more and replace more while keeping the style the same genre. It's definitely not 25 people, but it isn't something ridiculously big like 120-200 for a big refurb. I imagine most of the staff and MMM are focusing on Nemesisnat the moment rather than Duel.

Sorry if I sounded arrogant there @rob666, I was trying to tell @Matt N that they could just do whatever they wanted inside at a rush pace, they need to plan stuff like these, so doing 2 different things inside at the same time at a huge scale and rushing it probably wouldn't be the best route they could do.
 
Trooper Looper said:
Again, that's why I said take it with a pinch of salt about the size of the team, and with all the photos on how much has been gutted, it's more than likely to be a bigger size than 25.

When it comes to brand new rides from the ground up, a big team is expected, but a retheme or a refurb, it would be considerably smaller by a lot. DBGTs team had to focus on things like, foundation planning, architecture, concept art, interior structure, new tech, and how to use the immense budget. With Duel, they have most of that, and all they have to do really is new props, new mechanics, new set pieces, and some new tech such as Better speakers and lighting, which can easily be done by a small Tech team if given the time.

Terror Tombs refurb from The 5th Dimension had around 60 people from Farmer working on it, planning wise anyway, because they had to create an entirely different style and Genre from the 5th Dimension, a sci fi ride to an Egyptian Curse, so they had to replace Literally everything inside except from the System. Duels refurb is pretty much 100% going to still be a haunted ride, so much of the context of what they're aiming for is in there already at the very basics. All they need to do is add more and replace more while keeping the style the same genre. It's definitely not 25 people, but it isn't something ridiculously big like 120-200 for a big refurb. I imagine most of the staff and MMM are focusing on Nemesisnat the moment rather than Duel.

Sorry if I sounded arrogant there @rob666, I was trying to tell @Matt N that they could just do whatever they wanted inside at a rush pace, they need to plan stuff like these, so doing 2 different things inside at the same time at a huge scale and rushing it probably wouldn't be the best route they could do.
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Given that 99% of the rebuild is probably being done off site with pre construction I'd say the size of the onsite team is adequate
 
Jb85 said:
Given that 99% of the rebuild is probably being done off site with pre construction I'd say the size of the onsite team is adequate
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Definitely. I can imagine most of the work being done In London beforehand and the on site team being quite small supposedly when compared to one another.
 
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