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2024: General Discussion
- Thread starter Craig
- Start date
I’d be surprised if they are not attracting enough guests to make a profit but it’s probably that the prices have gone so high on hotels, merch and food while quality has gone down which is why people aren’t spending anything extra than just the tickets to get into the park.
The tickets don’t make the profits, food, drink, merch and full hotel rooms do.
The tickets don’t make the profits, food, drink, merch and full hotel rooms do.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
Out of interest, do you mean operations just in terms of ride throughputs or operations in other regards, such as ride availability?
If the former, I'd actually argue that Towers has very good ride operations, for the most part. A number of coasters get over 1,000pph at very least on occasion, Wicker Man exceeds its theoretical throughput regularly, and Thirteen also matches or exceeds its theoretical throughput regularly. For the most part, coasters also generally run most or all of their available trains.
From my experience, Alton Towers and Thorpe Park both have pretty decent ride throughputs, for the most part, and it’s Chessington and Legoland where things start to get a bit weaker within the Merlin chain.
But if the latter, I’ll concede that things like ride availability are currently proving quite an issue for the park.
flyingguitar
TS Member
I would argue against this a bit, there are a few rides with some ops issues (e.g oblivion always stacks all of its train on the break run) but many have been operating near full cap bar a station problem this summer,
13 has been really good
Gal is the best I have seen, I went the other day and there was no point where the trains stacked in the station, and most the time there was a station free with a train on the lift and another on the course,
wickerman has been really good and has been getting pretty good dispaches this year.
I personally think it just hasn't been popular, the most I have seen over summer is 90 mins, last year I recall 120+min queues I think it may be a few things (I haven't seen many ads for Alton towers) but I think mainly the weather has be quite poor in the west midlands with it being really wet and cold this year, I know a few people who had to turn on the heating in summer! I can only think of 6 or 7 days where it has actually been pleasant enough for most people to think about going to Alton throughout the entire august month, it is why we are seeing all of the hours cuts (which with how popular the parks are are probably kinda justified). for you southerners, or people less effected by the cold weather it has been one of the wettest summers for quite a few places (see this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/articles/c86l5z6gn6do)
BarryZola
TS Member
Won't be long until they're closing completely on selected weekdays again then. Gotta be honest, as someone who has had an annual pass for as long as I can remember I've seriously been considering not getting one next year. Food and bev's absolute farce, no decent new rides for 6 years (so far), can't enjoy the ruins at your leisure anymore, hardly anymore quiet days as most of the traditional ones get filled up with school trips. No-more garden lights at Scarefest. Cut hours at Scarefest. All this having to book months ahead to guarantee you can get a pre-book at a busy time of year. I don't know if I can be bothered anymore.
My Beach skip year has been most refreshing Mr Zola.
Add in the skyride for lack of reasonable access.
They get the custom they deserve.
People are skint, and voting with their feet.
Queuetimes suggest that this week has not seen the "last minute dash for fun" of the school holidays.
Add in the skyride for lack of reasonable access.
They get the custom they deserve.
People are skint, and voting with their feet.
Queuetimes suggest that this week has not seen the "last minute dash for fun" of the school holidays.
You say it’s not been popular but, all major rides at 60-90 mean it’s too popular for the ride count as, with a standard 10-6 summer opening, you wouldn’t get even the big rides done in that time let alone filler
AT86
TS Member
This kind of cost cutting is not new, under various leadership teams ‘non-essential’ roles have been cut or not back filled when the post summer exodus of staff occurs.
This includes in 2004 under Tussauds and 2012 under Merlin - the common factor is crap weather. The park (and all other outdoor leisure businesses) are chasing their tail and trying to claw back profit margins from reduced guest numbers from earlier in the season.
Yes some people know the Skyride is shut, some people know the food is awful, but I would argue the biggest impact to numbers this year is something impacting every potential guest - the weather.
This includes in 2004 under Tussauds and 2012 under Merlin - the common factor is crap weather. The park (and all other outdoor leisure businesses) are chasing their tail and trying to claw back profit margins from reduced guest numbers from earlier in the season.
Yes some people know the Skyride is shut, some people know the food is awful, but I would argue the biggest impact to numbers this year is something impacting every potential guest - the weather.
jon81uk
TS Member
This is the fundamental thing Merlin should have focused on, fewer guests paying more is a good thing, look at Paulton where there are no discounts it’s just £41 every day. Whereas Merlin have brought back cereal box codes and entry can be as low as £22
Na sorry, round here, the biggest issue is skint.
The cost of living crisis has hit many families really hard.
The money, more than the sunshine, has been lacking.
AT86
TS Member
I suspect it’s a combination of both.
What it is unlikely to be is a mass reaction to some of the things we aren’t happy with on Towers St, like Hex and Skyride being shut or the food being overpriced muck. Whilst those things may have a minor impact to visitor numbers the much wider context is the weather and economic situation.
Some articles here to show this is a wider issue that just Alton Towers.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4ngzm7kn14o.amp
www.bbc.co.uk
www.bbc.co.uk
What it is unlikely to be is a mass reaction to some of the things we aren’t happy with on Towers St, like Hex and Skyride being shut or the food being overpriced muck. Whilst those things may have a minor impact to visitor numbers the much wider context is the weather and economic situation.
Some articles here to show this is a wider issue that just Alton Towers.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4ngzm7kn14o.amp
Tourist attractions in Devon see trade down over Easter - BBC News
Bad weather and early holidays were "a recipe for a really poor Easter", say Devon's tourist spots.
www.bbc.co.uk
Tourism leaders ‘hoping for a bounce back’ - BBC News
Tourism leaders ‘hoping for a bounce back’
www.bbc.co.uk
Dave
TS Founding Member
It’s certainly the weather and cost of living that’s the issue. The food and ops experience might cause some to stop going but to be honest when I was a kid (back in the so called golden age of Towers) my dad thought the food was bad and overpriced, didn’t stop us going he just insisted we took our own food.
Honestly though Merlin need to stop being so short sighted about things, yes this might be a bad year but I’m certain it will still service its debt and maybe just try and tolerate one lower profit year so your brand doesn’t get damaged.
But as long as it’s owned even 50% by blackstone they are going to be profit focused.
Honestly though Merlin need to stop being so short sighted about things, yes this might be a bad year but I’m certain it will still service its debt and maybe just try and tolerate one lower profit year so your brand doesn’t get damaged.
But as long as it’s owned even 50% by blackstone they are going to be profit focused.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
It’s an interesting one.
Maybe this is in part down to me living in the South (albeit the South West rather than near London), but all in all, the weather this summer hasn’t seemed quite as bad as last year. It started off a bit rainy and cold, but it’s seemingly been quite sunny and dry for much of July and August. Perhaps that rainy, cold period at the start of summer did put a lot of people off, but overall, the weather this summer has not seemed as overwhelmingly bad as last year’s summer weather was.
With regard to the cost of living crisis; previous recessions have seen UK tourism do quite well, so why wouldn’t that be the case here? For every person who tightens their belt and stops visiting Alton Towers, there will be another doing a UK trip instead of a foreign trip. This proved to be the case during the recessions caused by 9/11, the 2008 financial crash and also COVID (albeit COVID was a bit of an “enforced” UK travel boom due to foreign travel being explicitly banned for 2 years). The cost of living crisis has also been rattling on for at least the last 2 years now, and I don’t seem to remember guest figures being this low in 2022; at the one park we had confirmed figures for from Merlin, Chessington, attendance actually rose by 200,000 in 2022 compared to 2021 despite the emergence of the cost of living crisis and the loss of the COVID boom.
Whatever the reason, though, I think there is clearly a reason why people are not going that doesn’t relate to the on-park experience in 2024. Yes, people on here are complaining about things, but you have to go to the park in the first place to discover these things to complain about, and it’s clear that lots of people aren’t going in the first place this year.
Maybe this is in part down to me living in the South (albeit the South West rather than near London), but all in all, the weather this summer hasn’t seemed quite as bad as last year. It started off a bit rainy and cold, but it’s seemingly been quite sunny and dry for much of July and August. Perhaps that rainy, cold period at the start of summer did put a lot of people off, but overall, the weather this summer has not seemed as overwhelmingly bad as last year’s summer weather was.
With regard to the cost of living crisis; previous recessions have seen UK tourism do quite well, so why wouldn’t that be the case here? For every person who tightens their belt and stops visiting Alton Towers, there will be another doing a UK trip instead of a foreign trip. This proved to be the case during the recessions caused by 9/11, the 2008 financial crash and also COVID (albeit COVID was a bit of an “enforced” UK travel boom due to foreign travel being explicitly banned for 2 years). The cost of living crisis has also been rattling on for at least the last 2 years now, and I don’t seem to remember guest figures being this low in 2022; at the one park we had confirmed figures for from Merlin, Chessington, attendance actually rose by 200,000 in 2022 compared to 2021 despite the emergence of the cost of living crisis and the loss of the COVID boom.
Whatever the reason, though, I think there is clearly a reason why people are not going that doesn’t relate to the on-park experience in 2024. Yes, people on here are complaining about things, but you have to go to the park in the first place to discover these things to complain about, and it’s clear that lots of people aren’t going in the first place this year.
Bowser
TS Member
I'm probably going to reference Efteling a lot following my trip this week but it was so eye opening.
On the face of it the parks are quite similar. Large, spaced out beautiful theme parks with millions of visitors a year, 7 or 8 big signature attractions and a host of supporting ones.
Yet there is where the similarities seemingly end.
The customer experience couldn't be more different and i don't understand why. I suppose it's the cumulative effect of all the small differences:
- Well maintained rides, open for 10+ hours a day running at full capacity when required.
- High staff levels to manage all shops and attractions. i remember noting to my wife how at Merlin parks you often have one poor soul running around batching and checking restraints whilst on Vogel Rok at one point there were 5 staff members on the platform! And there wasn't even someone batching, the queue was organically doing it themselves without issue
- A wide choice of good quality food
- No Fast-track.
There's probably more but basically it felt like "how can we make people have as good a day as possible" versus "how can we gouge as much money out of people as possible". Personally the former makes me much happier to give them my money and in the end we spent far more on food than we would at the latter.
I feel quite at peace with what Merlin are now though and i think i'll enjoy them more going forwards because of it. They're fun parks with some great rides and an uncertainty of experience. If you want a magical theme park trip then they're no longer in that category and you're better off going further afield.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
The other interesting to note about attendance is that outwardly at least, it seems as though Alton Towers and maybe Chessington World of Adventures have suffered more than Thorpe Park and Legoland Windsor.
Thorpe Park does not seem to have cut quite as much as Alton or Chessington, and I haven’t heard of Legoland notably tightening its belt either. In the case of Legoland, it may admittedly help that the Legoland parks are more of a vital area for Merlin than the Resort Theme Parks, but even still, it and Thorpe seem to have escaped cuts compared to Alton and Chessington.
Could Thorpe and Legoland have had their attendance boosted by their major new additions compared to Alton and Chessington who had nothing new and major? Yes, Alton had Nemesis Reborn, but that’s the same ride we’ve had for 30 years painted a new colour and given some new set dressing. Chessington had absolutely nothing new this year, although they did install Mandrill Mayhem only last year. Could the lack of a major new thing at Alton and Chessington this year be contributing to their low attendance?
Thorpe Park does not seem to have cut quite as much as Alton or Chessington, and I haven’t heard of Legoland notably tightening its belt either. In the case of Legoland, it may admittedly help that the Legoland parks are more of a vital area for Merlin than the Resort Theme Parks, but even still, it and Thorpe seem to have escaped cuts compared to Alton and Chessington.
Could Thorpe and Legoland have had their attendance boosted by their major new additions compared to Alton and Chessington who had nothing new and major? Yes, Alton had Nemesis Reborn, but that’s the same ride we’ve had for 30 years painted a new colour and given some new set dressing. Chessington had absolutely nothing new this year, although they did install Mandrill Mayhem only last year. Could the lack of a major new thing at Alton and Chessington this year be contributing to their low attendance?
GooseOnTheLoose
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Ug Bugs
Citation needed. Do you have access to attendance figures and ticket sales?
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
No, but general evidence and rumour, as well as the fact that both parks seem to be cutting budgets quite aggressively, would point that way.
Benzin
TS Member
Legoland has the biggest IP of them all. But even then the quality is... questionable and the operations fairly poor. State of Miniland made me very sad on my visit but it's been like that for ages.
Hyperia has probably been Thorpe's lifeline, but my singular visit it wasn't open so I had a practically unsaveable day (especially with the awful communication on the day). The park was running fine but still a few breakdowns here and there.
The problem is that nowadays people are far less willing to spend on these days out when the expense it was it is. Getting a carer MAP makes it just about worthwhile, but changing the limit to 90cm rather than 3 years is making me question for next year. Definitely got value out of it and probably would again but even so.
Classic capitalism though. Poor performance, cut costs, thereby lessening the value of the product and a worse day out going forwards.
Hyperia has probably been Thorpe's lifeline, but my singular visit it wasn't open so I had a practically unsaveable day (especially with the awful communication on the day). The park was running fine but still a few breakdowns here and there.
The problem is that nowadays people are far less willing to spend on these days out when the expense it was it is. Getting a carer MAP makes it just about worthwhile, but changing the limit to 90cm rather than 3 years is making me question for next year. Definitely got value out of it and probably would again but even so.
Classic capitalism though. Poor performance, cut costs, thereby lessening the value of the product and a worse day out going forwards.
GooseOnTheLoose
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Ug Bugs
There isn't any general evidence though, as you've said, it's speculation. If we're going on speculation, rumour and "general VIBES" then let's look at anecdotal reports. The park can't both be very busy, in various trip reports posted here, with very long queues and the oft repeated "no quiet walk on days", and have low attendance.