[2024] Nemesis Reborn: Construction and Speculation

[Alsty]

I'm hoping they don't overplay this Phalanx malarkey.

 

[Dave]

I'm hoping they don't overplay this Phalanx malarkey.

I suspect you will be disappointed.

 

[ChristmasPud]

A depressing view of theme parks if Alton Towers, one the most magical settings for a theme park in the world, can only choose from bleak minimalistic military or secret government organisation themes.

There was a pretty cool themed area called Forbidden Valley, no military theme. Junkyard cult and more interesting mystery. Maybe they could build on that to break the stereotype?

 

[LivOctober]

I'm personally wondering if they're leaning more on the military aspect of Nemesis' backstory than junkyard cult because they've got a far larger number of cult-based rides (wickerman, thirteen, smiler) than when Nemesis was originally built. If you're looking to re-theme forbidden valley for cheap to go along with the Nemesis retrack, military space esque works to make it more "unique" in the park and you could easily expand that theme across to Galatica/Air considering it's pre-existing loose theme of space travel.

Personally wouldn't really be a fan of this, but I can see Merlin thinking it's a great idea.

 

[Benzin]

Who needs subtlety anyway?

Unfortunately its a trend throughout the industry as a whole atm. In between that and desires for IPs.

 

[ChristmasPud]

I think that would be changing the best version of that theme because of lesser copies done since, to be another theme that's also been done enough at Alton Towers.

Only really Wicker Man is the same sort of big centrepiece and cult worship formula, but the furniture is different enough to get by and is at least slightly whimsical.

Personally everything I experienced of the Phalanx theme in Sub Terra and the recent promo was negative or very cliched and came at the cost of a much more enjoyable, more mysterious theme.

 

[Dave]

A depressing view of theme parks if Alton Towers, one the most magical settings for a theme park in the world, can only choose from bleak minimalistic military or secret government organisation themes.

There was a pretty cool themed area called Forbidden Valley, no military theme. Junkyard cult and more interesting mystery. Maybe they could build on that to break the stereotype?

I mean that’s two out of 8 themes in the park.

I like the Phalanx addition to the area, I would however like some of the post apocalyptic junk yard stuff back (nemesis nosh bus etc).

 

[ChristmasPud]

I mean that’s two out of 8 themes in the park.

What I mean is I disagree with the idea these themes are so similar only because there's 'only so many base points' to go from. There's no limitation other than taste and budget

A typical day out to a fantastic theme park are you're greeted with bleak theme over here, minimalist theme over there, possibly now military logos and bodyguards shouting at you again. Sort of a depressing interpretation of a mysterious theme park. Other than the IP areas

Even the same area theme was previously more creative (I think) and suited the park better. Even then it had room for improvement which I hope is what the focus will be on

 

[Dave]

What I mean is I disagree with the idea these themes are so similar only because there's 'only so many base points' to go from. There's no limitation other than taste and budget

A typical day out to a fantastic theme park are you're greeted with bleak theme over here, minimalist theme over there, possibly now military logos and bodyguards shouting at you again. Sort of a depressing interpretation of a mysterious theme park. Other than the IP areas

Even the same area theme was previously more creative (I think) and suited the park better. Even then it had room for improvement which I hope is what the focus will be on

I just don’t see x-sector and valley as being overly similar, I think in some ways people think they are because x-sector is so badly maintained these days, but if they returned it to it’s former glory with some TLC you have a futuristic theme, compared to Valley which is a more post apocalyptic theme.

Old Valley was more creative before Air was installed, then it became a bit chaotic, the loss of the Bus and the building of the then fish and chip now coffee building had a strong impact on the feel of the area. I don’t think Phalanx will detract from it however, though as I say I would like to see restoration of some of the old “junk yard” elements.

 

[RyanUK]

Hi all, I am new to this forum and have spent some time reading this topic before deciding to join. I will try not to repeat some stuff that’s already been said.

Firstly, my understanding of the Nemesis monster theme has always been that the track is the tentacles of the monster and the supports are the steel they had to use to pin it down. The fake track coming out of the station are certainly its tentacles and a bonus compliment to the already brilliant theme. As for the trains going around the track being what feeds it, that is certainly a new one on me.

Any enthusiast who’s rode it since opening will know the original ride was brilliantly designed, constructed and marketed - and to this day, it looks great. Think back to 1993 during its construction - a lot of things were ahead of its time! The 2016 paint job might not have been everyone’s flavour and I certainly wasn’t keen on the new grey supports at first, but I’ve always liked the new paint job with the hints of orange in certain sections. And I always thought that the old supports’ rust effect was just it ageing! Then there’s the blood river, which as we know the red water hasn’t been there for a few years now. My understanding for it was due for the resort to be more environmentally friendly with the colouring etc, I don’t know if I am right or wrong on this, but it seems also the river has become rather…dry…? Again, please correct me if I’m wrong.

Now we’ve all seen the pictures of the B&M track at the Claremont Steel Fabricators in Ohio, USA. Many believe it is the new track, but the most noticeable thing about it is the track colour - and ever since this has been revealed, the hot topic has been about the new track colour. I’m going to be completely blunt here - I’m not keen one bit. Let me go deeper:

• The plans for this entire retrack project first emerged about a year ago. Since then there have been many updates, including being able to view the actual planning documents on the Staffordshire Moorlands Council planning pages. Usually, there are a lot of planning documents available to view online for your average house construction project - but for this is it seems there isn’t many. And one key thing that is not shown in these plans is the track colour. Whether they mention it or not is neither here or there.

• To expand on this further, John Wardley’s interview on Radio 5 Live recently heard him say “a few surprises are being added to it” - is the track colour change one of them, who knows? Last summer he mentioned at an event that the majority share the opinions of “you don’t mess with Nemesis” - and this is something that lately, almost daily, repeats on me.

• It is obvious to me that a black track would not fit in with the current layout and neighbouring colours. The lift hill is not being replaced, so therefore would need repainting if the ride was to be an entirely new colour. Also, the station, along with other themed elements of the ride, is being refreshed, therefore keeping it’s current theme.

• There is also an increased debate as to whether the Phalanx will become the main theme for this ride. I sincerely hope not. I like the marketing for this, I never liked Sub Terra or it’s theme - to try and alter it from a pinned down monster to a Phalanx theme is like replacing Indiana Jones’ hat with a turban - a disaster, where the original theme to be continued for another 30 years will be permanently interrupted for the worse.

MMM have some good, talented people on their team. Unfortunately, not every bit of their work has been a success. You’ve only got to look at the monsters neighbour Galactica. For me, that retheme was just plain awful and the VR introduction was just not right for it. We know the VR had issues only to be canned permanently a few years later, but I do feel what I still call Air in the 2020’s has now been permanently stained with it’s failed Galactica theme (IMO). The newly added hoop you fly through soon after is just tasteless for the ride.

Back to Nemmie - I remember when news of this retrack first emerged - a part of me feared for its future. It still does. It’s been great for nearly 30 years as it is, albeit with a paint job and bloodless river too late. The only reason people keep coming back is for the thrill. But ask your average repetitive rider about its surroundings, the theme and it’s reputation it has gained, and most of them will probably tell you it’s more than just a ride. It’s legendary.

I used to prefer Inferno to Nemesis. I admit I underestimated it in the first few years of riding it. To this day I detest Inferno so much I will just never get the connection. The original - a monster. Inferno - an erupting volcano. Please, why?!

Questions I have: if the track that we’ve seen in Ohio is Nemesis, does this mean it’s replacement is not being supplied by B&M? What’s happening to the trains, are we getting new ones or are they being refurbished?

Now for my responses to the below…

This reiterates my view that it won’t fit in with the surrounding area of the park.

Looks awful, boring and completely clashes with the rest of the monster.

Again, agreed.

I absolutely agree that there are talented people at MMM and that the next gen of talent should have the opportunity to shine, but it doesn't change the fact that MMM have somehow made poor decisions in recent years getting a poor return even on major investments (DBGT?, etc).

If John is involved, I think they will be listening and whilst he may not be involved as much as some, I think he will have the power to veto any really bad decisions, otherwise what's the point

He has done it before even when contracts were at an advanced stage (SW1 and SW2 disappointing pipeline coasters).

I don't think it would take months of his full time involvement to prevent them from taking entirely the wrong path.

A bad idea, is a bad idea. Whilst there may be subjective differences of opinion on Nemmies's direction, I am not expecting any major objective bad decisions.

Agree with you, although we need to remember that John is only partly involved with this entire project, he is pretty much standing on the side.

The only thing we know so far is that the ride will have black track. Just because the ride's track is to be black, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're going full on with a Phalanx theme or a theme similar to the X-Sector rides. It could simply be to reflect the updated Nemesis legend on the website, where the track is the steel pinning down the monster.

It’s not been confirmed by the park or any source officially yet, despite the numerous videos flying around YouTube which confirm its colour. Let’s get it on site, and see what is built in what colour. The old track is still not completely out yet, and here we are some 15 months away from it reopening, confirming its colour with no official confirmation. There is a gargantuan amount of work to overcome in those 15 months. It could be constructed in this colour then repainted with the team who worked on the 2016 repaint. We also need to remember that the entire ride will go through months of testing.

 

[ML27]

It does slightly feel like, I don’t like it so I don’t believe it.

Repainting the remaining sections, won’t be that hard for Merlin. They’ve done that before and again, it’s just going to be black.

I can’t imagine the station will stay the same, it’s 30 years old. Yes ok they did repaint it and do TLC on it but most of the station is still 30 years old.

There clearly will be a phalanx story line so it is open ended how they explain a change in colour or similar. Maybe NST will help progress a story?

I feel like Merlin have now gone down the route of being ok we will keep it as long as we can make changes to most things except for the track profiling and layout. Which I know for hardcore fans, will be upsetting but it is 30 years old and could have lost it all together. What we are seeing is clearly a compromise of keeping nemesis as long as it can be different.

JW is to some degree with the plans, but obviously he’s not gonna be publicly negative about it.

Saying all this, I don’t think it’s going to be just a black track. We will find out sooner or later


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Craig]

Welcome to the forum @RyanUK. Just to cover a few of your points before we go back into the discussion that we've already tried to move away from. A lot of your queries have been covered already.

• The plans for this entire retrack project first emerged about a year ago. Since then there have been many updates, including being able to view the actual planning documents on the Staffordshire Moorlands Council planning pages. Usually, there are a lot of planning documents available to view online for your average house construction project - but for this is it seems there isn’t many. And one key thing that is not shown in these plans is the track colour. Whether they mention it or not is neither here or there.

The plans were not a planning application, but a certificate of lawfulness. It was the equivalent of an official request to say "We think we don't need planning permission for this, we're just checking". Hence why you didn't see the level of drawings etc that we normally would.

Questions I have: if the track that we’ve seen in Ohio is Nemesis, does this mean it’s replacement is not being supplied by B&M? What’s happening to the trains, are we getting new ones or are they being refurbished?

Yes, B&M don't manufacture their own track. The pictures from Ohio are from the steel fabrication company that B&M use. There used to be a manufacturer in Europe, but it's all now done in the US. As for trains - who knows if they're new or refurbished at this point.

MMM have some good, talented people on their team. Unfortunately, not every bit of their work has been a success. You’ve only got to look at the monsters neighbour Galactica. For me, that retheme was just plain awful and the VR introduction was just not right for it. We know the VR had issues only to be canned permanently a few years later, but I do feel what I still call Air in the 2020’s has now been permanently stained with it’s failed Galactica theme (IMO). The newly added hoop you fly through soon after is just tasteless for the ride.

I don't think we need to be going into other rides too much, but in terms of Galactica, the theme was very much led by the technology that Merlin wanted to put in - the VR was not created by Merlin Magic Making. As mentioned, there's more fingers in the pie than just MMM staff, there's a myriad of company figures (and budgets) that shape the final ride.

It’s not been confirmed by the park or any source officially yet, despite the numerous videos flying around YouTube which confirm its colour. Let’s get it on site, and see what is built in what colour. The old track is still not completely out yet, and here we are some 15 months away from it reopening, confirming its colour with no official confirmation. There is a gargantuan amount of work to overcome in those 15 months. It could be constructed in this colour then repainted with the team who worked on the 2016 repaint. We also need to remember that the entire ride will go through months of testing.

No it hasn't, but as has been mentioned a (fair few!) times now, there are far too many indications (track markings, no other inverts being constructed at the moment, some obvious elements from Nemesis being identifiable) that it will be.

I'm all for speculation, but unless there is solid evidence (as there is for the black track) that it will be something else - then there's little point discussing otherwise at present.

This reiterates my view that it won’t fit in with the surrounding area of the park.

That's merely just a mockup of the track colour with no consideration for the theme of the rest of the ride being tweaked. I think it's way too early to go assuming that just the track is going to be a different colour at the moment.

As mentioned on my previous post, I think it's important we move on from track colour speculation for the time being. We should work under the assumption that it's black (or at least the primary colour is) for the time being. Unless we see something that says otherwise, there's no value in discussing it.

 

[DistortAMG]

Going back to what I stated earlier regarding the Phalanx and whatnot.

I think again it is worth pointing out (due to a few comments I've seen), the Phalanx were not created for Nemesis: Subterra. They were created for the original Nemesis back story / comic in 1994 and appear in those.

Moving on from that, so originally with Nemesis, the supports pinned down the tentacles / track or whatever, seeing as it appears they are advancing the story, you would have thought after 28 years they would have properly pinned down and contained Nemesis. It does make me curious as to how they are going to move on from that. Maybe the experiment's they mentioned in the fireworks have somehow gone wrong, re angered the beast or some form of that. Or the beast is in the process of leaving earth to another planet, we ride the remains of failed experiment or something. They have loads of angles they could go with.

As for the station, it is 28 years old and with the exterior theming made with a lot of plywood. Over a corrugated steel shed. I can see major work taking place on this, it is anyone's guess right now if it will be the same or not, but whatever they do, I am sure it will tie into the new theme.

Just bring me back the blood waterfalls and I will be happy. I am sure with the major work taking place, they have the means and the technology available now to properly engineer a solution that pleases the local water table and the park.

 

[George W]

The theme of nemesis 1.0 will always be special to me, the monster station with the B&M tracks coming out of it (Soo cool), the blood river, one thing they can't ruin is the landscaping of the big pit.

The black tracks clearly indicate there's more changes than we first predicted coming to nemesis the jet black track won't really match the current form of the station and it's surroundings.

However I'm just holding some faith to MMM I know they have some creative leads, they might pull of something special and enhance the ride to a good modern degree.

Maybe there's a new IP coming and the station is gonna be venom hence the black tracks and a new black venom station to go with it (that's a joke).

But regardless I'm holding my judgement until 2024 not a couple days into the proper closed season not even the same year its scheduled to open.

Even if they blow Nemesis 2.0 out of the park with a major stunning overhaul I know some people will still miss the og and that's fine so will I in a way but don't knock it when the track isn't even in the country yet.

 

[George W]

Having said all that if by some disaster they do a complete bodged job with duel then I'd start worrying for nemesis's future I think that may be a good indication and we'll see how world of Jumanji turns out too, I do have high hopes though.

 

[Zeock]

I think that people are simply overreacting a little. I am honestly quite disappointed by the track colour change, but there still might be more decoration added to the track. We also have no clue how the 'more storytelling' will be achieved because we don't know what form it will take. It is closed season, so people may be a bit bored, but as stated many times, I hope people will try to reserve judgement as much as possible. I am clinging onto the hope that JW has provided when he said that 'you don't mess with Nemesis'.

 

[SMT_]

I am clinging onto the hope that JW has provided when he said that 'you do not mess with Nemesis'.

The only thing that *really* matters when it comes down to it is it hauling arse down that helix, which it will do as there's no changes to the layout.

 

[DistortAMG]

I think the one thing that is almost certain, is Alton Towers / Merlin will almost certainly be wanting to make a statement to the industry and public with this refurbishment, being such an iconic ride and all. For that reason the refurbishment to the theming and even the changes could be larger than people think, while still keeping the general theme.

I do not see why people or moaning so much about track colour, changes whatever, especially when you consider the below;

Let me lay a few bare realities out for you...

1. The ride is not rebuilt or has even started to be rebuilt, hold your judgement on track and theming until the project is further along.
2. Nemesis was at the end of it's life. It would have been going, but they decided to keep it.
3. Would you rather have black track, or no Nemesis?
4. Would you rather have an updated theme, or no Nemesis?
5. Would you rather the ride was not even refurbished and it carried on in it's very tired looking state, with the occasional band aid of paint and no doubt becoming less reliable and more tired looking over time.

I get people love this ride and people do not like change, but judgement should at least be reserved until we actually have some things to judge against, right now there is nothing to judge against.

Personally, we know the core Nemesis experience is going to be the same, the forceful coaster ride. So given that, I am pretty excited to see what they do with it.

 

[Josh555]

Personally I’m quite happy/excited about this.

To be fair to Merlin, for all the valid criticism of them, they’ve come on leaps and bounds with their theming lately so I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this.

Things do evolve and it’s understandable from a marketing perspective that they’d want to be able to market this as a new experience (if not a new ride,) it’s a small price to pay really for ensuring the coaster’s long term health.

 

[RyanUK]

It does slightly feel like, I don’t like it so I don’t believe it.

Repainting the remaining sections, won’t be that hard for Merlin. They’ve done that before and again, it’s just going to be black.

I can’t imagine the station will stay the same, it’s 30 years old. Yes ok they did repaint it and do TLC on it but most of the station is still 30 years old.

There clearly will be a phalanx story line so it is open ended how they explain a change in colour or similar. Maybe NST will help progress a story?

I feel like Merlin have now gone down the route of being ok we will keep it as long as we can make changes to most things except for the track profiling and layout. Which I know for hardcore fans, will be upsetting but it is 30 years old and could have lost it all together. What we are seeing is clearly a compromise of keeping nemesis as long as it can be different.

JW is to some degree with the plans, but obviously he’s not gonna be publicly negative about it.

Saying all this, I don’t think it’s going to be just a black track. We will find out sooner or later


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No it is not a case of I don’t like it so I don’t believe it. I think the general opinion is 50-50 at present. Ask every single avid Nemesis fan out there and most will probably opt for the original theme - although to conduct a poll on that scale would take some doing and probably impossible.

If we are seeing the compromise of Nemesis being the same profile and layout but on a different theme, then one has to take me yet again back to John Wardley’s quote of “you don’t mess with Nemesis”. Because if we end up with a different colour track and different station theme then we are going against those words and betraying the hardcore fans. Typical Merlin are again trying to change something that isn’t broke and has been fine up until now. They have ruined several good rides in their parks over the years.

If we end up with a different theme all round, including music, this along with the possible different ride experience could drive the enthusiasts away, and they won’t come back.

We are promised the same experience all round. Early indications are not pointing to that.