[2024] Nemesis Reborn: Construction and Speculation

[Connor98]

What immelmann?

You mean the zero g roll over the station?

Edit - ignore above reply, added by mistake

I'm sorry, but... no, just... no... they're good quality themed rides, no doubt about that, but they're themed to IPs and typical genres and styles. Nemesis, Well, Alton Towers in general rejected this and went full on one of a kind theme with Forbidden Valley.

In my eyes theres nothing wrong with IP’s when they are done to a high standard such as Velocicoaster or Hagrids for example. But that’s easy for universal/Disney as they have the rights and cash to do so. They also have the advantage of knowing the future of said IP’s and wether they will remain relevant. But back onto the subject of Nemesis

 

[Trooper Looper]

Maybe

In my eyes theres nothing wrong with IP’s when they are done to a high standard such as Velocicoaster or Hagrids for example. But that’s easy for universal/Disney as they have the rights and cash to do so. They also have the advantage of knowing the future of said IP’s and wether they will remain relevant. But back onto the subject of Nemesis

The high quality IP rides are great because the IP feels additional and the ride would still work without it and manage to stand on its own ground from well well they're made. The thing is, most IPs are terribly done and feel shoehorned in. Just wanted to state my opinion, anywho, back to Nemesis.

 

[ChristmasPud]

Nemesis was a very good themed ride. Nobody's actually saying it's better than the best themed areas in the world or anywhere close. You don't have to be 'better than' Stanley Kubrick to make a fun unique movie.

I still have a lot of optimism for this project, that there's opportunity to build on and improve the theme true to the Nemesis we know and love.

 

[Craig]

But up until now I think all sections of track have been unbolted and lifted out, and then cut up when they reach the scrapyard. That would seem to be case, especially given the photos we’ve seen of it in the car park.

Lifting one quarter of the loop would risk it swinging out once it's unbolted. It's easier to grab the whole top half as you it'll sit there quite happily even when unbolted until you lift it.

I’m interested to see if they’ll replace the support that pokes out of the station roof, where it holds the upside down section of track. Considering it’s within the building too. Now they are getting to the Immelmann and pit work, this shall be interesting too.

It is indeed, you can see the ones being replaced in the plans highlighted in green.

Maybe to you it doesn’t. To some, it might. I love how people are clutching at straws over the whole colour track and theme change when it’s still so early in the project to even know its future. Debate away indeed but I can’t help but feel some people will be eating humble pie in the future.

No straw clutching here, simply looking at the facts. I wholly agree there will be some people eating humble pie, however I don't think I'm of the same view as to which group that will be

We don’t know that. One of the major driving factors for this entire retrack is because after nearly 30 years of operating, the track has taken a lot of stress over the years - far more than other rides in the UK. Vampire at Chessington is only a few years older. Its throughput is most likely a lot lower than Nemesis. It runs slower but I doubt it will ever be retracked in its life.

A lot of people return to the park in between major new attractions. It doesn’t keep people away. And in response to your comment about why should people come back because they’ve just replaced the track and given it a lick of paint, your average 2-times a year visitor probably wouldn't be bothered about that, but if they did the work and kept it exactly the same, it’s things like that would make people flock back! Nemesis is the victim of her own success - little has generally changed since 1993, and look how the people return year after year. Because that’s what they love. Leave something alone for years and it’ll be a success. The park got it spot on and it paid off with little modification. The minute you touch it, you risk its target audience being disrupted. Remember, a lot of people head to Forbidden Valley at the start of a day, because they love it and it’s Towers’ best rollercoaster, and part of it being the best one is because they’ve let the beast sleep and not changed anything.

We know that the ride has to be re-tracked as it was coming to the end of its useful life. However, that doesn't mean we should discount the fact that marketing comes into it (as it always does!). I agree with Skyscraper in that the potential to be able to market some sort of re-theme to the ride still plays a big part in ok'ing the overall project.

Now I may get shot down here for a controversial view, but stick with me. I think as enthusiasts we often over-exaggerate the overall importance of Nemesis to the occasional visitor. Anecdotally, if I get into conversation about Alton Towers with my none regular visiting friends, other coasters like Oblivion, Rita and even Air (they'll still call it that!) will come up in conversation before Nemesis does. I'm not denying it's a great ride and well loved, but I think we can often over-egg its status among the general public.

We now as good as know there will be a retheme of some sort to the ride, there's too much evidence pointing toward that being the case. The track colour, the actors around the ride at Fireworks on the Sunday and the intentional eye effect on the announcement video all point to the introduction of something else into the ride's lore when it comes back next year. Not to mention John Wardley's own words in an interview with TT/Attraction source which also suggests some differences will be seen:

What I can tell you is everything that everybody loves about Nemesis, the sensation, the thrills of Nemesis. None of that’s gonna change, but you’ve got a little more on top

Come 2024, the park will want to shout about it reopening, to encourage guests to visit the park. Simply saying "it's back open, it's the same thing" simply isn't going to cut it. They will want to see something new and fresh to push out there, and based on everything we know so far - that's looking to be the case.

 

[Matt N]

We know that the ride has to be re-tracked as it was coming to the end of its useful life. However, that doesn't mean we should discount the fact that marketing comes into it (as it always does!). I agree with Skyscraper in that the potential to be able to market some sort of re-theme to the ride still plays a big part in ok'ing the overall project.

Now I may get shot down here for a controversial view, but stick with me. I think as enthusiasts we often over-exaggerate the overall importance of Nemesis to the occasional visitor. Anecdotally, if I get into conversation about Alton Towers with my none regular visiting friends, other coasters like Oblivion, Rita and even Air (they'll still call it that!) will come up in conversation before Nemesis does. I'm not denying it's not a great ride and not well loved, but I think we can often over-egg its status among the general public.

We now as good as know there will be a retheme of some sort to the ride, there's too much evidence pointing toward that being the case. The track colour, the actors around the ride at Fireworks on the Sunday and the intentional eye effect on the announcement video all point to the introduction of something else into the ride's lore when it comes back next year. Not to mention John Wardley's own words in an interview with TT/Attraction source which also suggests some differences will be seen:

Come 2024, the park will want to shout about it reopening, to encourage guests to visit the park. Simply saying "it's back open, it's the same thing" simply isn't going to cut it. They will want to see something new and fresh to push out there, and based on everything we know so far - that's looking to be the case.

I agree with a lot of what you say here @Craig. While I get that some parks retrack rides without necessarily re-marketing them, these parks typically have a lot more money to throw at such projects than Alton Towers, so retracking a ride with no immediate marketing hook makes less of a difference to them.

I also agree with your controversial view. I won’t deny that Nemesis is clearly a popular, well-liked ride (if it wasn’t, the park surely wouldn’t have bothered retracking it), but I don’t think that it is “undeniably the UK’s most popular coaster” or “the UK’s most iconic coaster” or “the UK’s most famous coaster” as many on here make out. From similar anecdotal experience, I’d certainly say that rides like The Smiler and Wicker Man are more well-known and well-liked than Nemesis in general, with The Smiler in particular seeming to be a relatively famous and iconic coaster both in the UK and worldwide (and not because of the accident like many think). Most people I’ve visited Alton Towers with or heard talk about Alton Towers over the years like Nemesis, but don’t necessarily have it as their favourite ride on park. No non-enthusiast I know puts it on a god-like pedestal compared to the other rides like most on here do.

I think the black track does strongly hint towards a retheme or change in theme of some description, as well as the prior publicity material that the park have put out. It would also make sense given Merlin’s previous history with expensive retracks; Colossos got quite a hefty theme change when Merlin retracked it, so I’d be surprised if Nemesis didn’t at least see some theming enhancements so that Merlin can market it as a “new” deliverable. I wouldn’t even be surprised if Nemesis gained a similar moniker to Colossos; perhaps “Nemesis Reborn” or “Nemesis Revived” or something would work?

Marketing is important to parks, and while I accept that not every penny spent in a theme park will provide an immediate return on investment, a park on the scale of Alton Towers spending a potential 8 figure amount would surely want to see some kind of tangible return on that investment, and I’m not sure that a simple restoration on its own would provide that tangible return in the way that an altered and enhanced Nemesis would. An altered and enhanced Nemesis can be sold as “new” and is more likely to tempt people back than simply regurgitating the 30 year old ride that existed before.

 

[Zeock]

I agree with a lot of what you say here @Craig. While I get that some parks retrack rides without necessarily re-marketing them, these parks typically have a lot more money to throw at such projects than Alton Towers, so retracking a ride with no immediate marketing hook makes less of a difference to them.

I also agree with your controversial view. I won’t deny that Nemesis is clearly a popular, well-liked ride (if it wasn’t, the park surely wouldn’t have bothered retracking it), but I don’t think that it is “undeniably the UK’s most popular coaster” or “the UK’s most iconic coaster” or “the UK’s most famous coaster” as many on here make out. From similar anecdotal experience, I’d certainly say that rides like The Smiler and Wicker Man are more well-known and well-liked than Nemesis in general, with The Smiler in particular seeming to be a relatively famous and iconic coaster both in the UK and worldwide (and not because of the accident like many think). Most people I’ve visited Alton Towers with or heard talk about Alton Towers over the years like Nemesis, but don’t necessarily have it as their favourite ride on park. No non-enthusiast I know puts it on a god-like pedestal compared to the other rides like most on here do.

I agree. The Smiler is the most famous ride in the park. Many non enthusiasts would also consider it the best, although this goes to Nemesis for me. Oblivion also seems popular with the public.
I think that Merlin will come up with a marketing hook, perhaps something like 'Nemesis: Reborn' or maybe 'Nemesis : The Beast Returns'.

 

[Altonadvocate1]

"Nemesis Revenge"

The ultimate monster returns to extract brutal apocalyptic revenge on the suits that allowed it's lair to fall into disrepair in the first place.

Sit back... It's fright time all over again! (and justice).

 

[Zeock]

"Nemesis Revenge"

The ultimate monster returns to extract brutal apocalyptic revenge on the suits that allowed it's lair to fall into disrepair in the first place.

Sit back... It's fright time all over again! (and justice).

Does this mean that Varney and the others will be killed by the monster?

 

[ChristmasPud]

Nemesis already brings in a lot people, the park are already planning major NEW attractions to increase draw.
Retracking Nemesis is mainly to maintain the park's existing appeal, the additional PR drive on top of that will be a relatively minor extra draw.

It's a huge lesson for UK parks to learn, who have so far not followed this route. I'm sure if we didnt have senior Merlin connections to Nemesis then we'd have seen the back of Nemesis because of the 'marketing angle'. Outside the UK, many successful parks have been doing projects like this for years.

I'm very pleased to see it happen and hope it sets a great precedent!

 

[Sauron97]

This 'gotcha' that 99% people don't care therefore nothing matters is the real tiresome negative.

It's not how good entertainment works. Otherwise the team behind the original Nemesis needn't have bothered go the extra mile to make something so good and unique in the first place.

I agree. And better to appeal to audiences who do care, with the off chance that there will be sections within the public who do pay attention to such details. The ones who don't care will enjoy the ride regardless.

I think sometimes people are so caught up in the numbers and accounts of stuff, that they forget part of the aim of these projects in the first place (budget allowing) was to create something that impresses people and lets their imagination wonder. So long as something is feasible and can make money, why get so caught up in all this stuff?

I can already predict the response will be "Yeah but "if" there were tight profits, spending too much on props and a theme could be the difference between a net profit and loss", well was it a loss in the end? No, the season nemesis opened was hugely successful by nearly every measure.... perhaps that says that going above and beyond is picked up by people, even if they don't outright say it.

We’ll that’s subject to opinion because I’d take any of the Florida parks over Nemesis any day.

You’re saying Nemesis stands up to the level of theming and immersiveness of lands and rides such as Pandora, Flight of Passage, Expedition Everest, Toy Story Land, Galaxy’s Edge, Big Thunder Mountain, Velocicoaster, Wizarding World etc?

Give over. Rose tinted glasses.

Apples and oranges. I don't get this over the top Disney/universal worship. Yeah the people behind those rides have a huge amount of talent, but that doesn't necessarily mean the output is "better". Most of those rides you listed have to tell you so much about what's going on while you're riding, and don't leave much room for you to think or ponder. Nemesis doesn't need any of those things. It's open ended and lets you figure out what the whole scene is about. Even the 90s promo material didn't give away a huge amount, and everything was always surrounded in mystery. I like the cool mystery element, and I don't think saying so gives you rose tinted glasses, personally.

 

[Craig]

Before we start getting into a Universal/Disney vs Towers discussion, this goes back to what has already been discussed. Some people like an explicit theme presented throughout the ride, others like yourself prefer something that's up for interpretation. It's a subjective thing, and it's someone's opinion as to what their preference is.

That's where the surveys, feedback and research come in with all parks to determine what the majority of guests would want for new attractions. It's also what would also be likely used to determine what happened with Nemesis and this refurbishment.

 

[Sauron97]

Before we start getting into a Universal/Disney vs Towers discussion, this goes back to what has already been discussed. Some people like an explicit theme presented throughout the ride, others like yourself prefer something that's up for interpretation. It's a subjective thing, and it's someone's opinion as to what their preference is.

That is true when it comes to personal opinion, but there's a point to be made that a big section of UK audiences would see through that kind of grand storytelling stuff. I don't think it's just an opinion thrown in the air, I think it has a bit of truth to it. Americans have always been over the top and exhibitionist with their entertainment. the big late night shows with the huge pianos, red carpet stuff etc whereas we've been that bit more gritty and sarcastic, and respond cynically to all that grand stuff. We are perhaps becoming more like the Americans nowadays cause of social media, but I think there was a bigger difference in culture when nemesis opened.

That being said, of course the market research point is the most important one for Nemesis and its refurbishment.

 

[jon81uk]

That is true when it comes to personal opinion, but there's a point to be made that a big section of UK audiences would see through that kind of grand storytelling stuff. I don't think it's just an opinion thrown in the air, I think it has a bit of truth to it. Americans have always been over the top and exhibitionist with their entertainment. the big late night shows with the huge pianos, red carpet stuff etc whereas we've been that bit more gritty and sarcastic. We are perhaps becoming more like the Americans nowadays cause of social media, but I think there was a bigger difference in culture when nemesis opened.

That being said, of course the market research point is the most important one for Nemesis and its refurbishment.

You can't lump it as an American thing either, its specifically just Disney, Universal and Legoland really that go all out on themed parks. Most of the other US parks, Six Flags, Seaworld etc don't really, they are more like the UK parks with some areas, or heavily themed kids areas (Sesame Street, Bugs Bunny etc) but not really themed coasters.

 

[Altonadvocate1]

Does this mean that Varney and the others will be killed by the monster?

Nick is safe. Nemmie wouldn't hurt Henry Hound.

 

[Sauron97]

You can't lump it as an American thing either, its specifically just Disney, Universal and Legoland really that go all out on themed parks. Most of the other US parks, Six Flags, Seaworld etc don't really, they are more like the UK parks with some areas, or heavily themed kids areas (Sesame Street, Bugs Bunny etc) but not really themed coasters.

True, but are those parks really in the same kind of category?

The storytelling, theme and prop discussion is way more relevant between Towers and studio parks, than six flags, surely
I think the Nemesis to studio park comparison is ultimately apples and oranges cause of the UK USA cultural differences when it comes to style and storytelling, but I think there's more of a comparison to be made there than with any other US parks.

 

[DistortAMG]

I do love how many people have seemingly developed precognition in here.

So many people seem to know seemingly as fact, what Nemesis shall be like next year.

 

[jon81uk]

True, but are those parks really in the same kind of category?

The storytelling, theme and prop discussion is way more relevant between Towers and studio parks, than six flags, surely
I think the Nemesis to studio park comparison is ultimately apples and oranges cause of the UK USA cultural differences when it comes to style and storytelling, but I think there's more of a comparison to be made there than with any other US parks.

The Merlin resort theme parks (so the ones that aren't Legoland) I would say are comparable with Seaworld and Busch Gardens. Thorpe Park is definitely very comparable to a Six Flags. Alton Towers is better but still not at the Universal/Disney level, but it doesn't need to be.
But it is not a UK vs USA cultural difference, it is a fully themed studio-owned park vs a mid-level theme park. All countries have different types of theme and amusement parks.

 

[Matt N]

That is true when it comes to personal opinion, but there's a point to be made that a big section of UK audiences would see through that kind of grand storytelling stuff. I don't think it's just an opinion thrown in the air, I think it has a bit of truth to it. Americans have always been over the top and exhibitionist with their entertainment. the big late night shows with the huge pianos, red carpet stuff etc whereas we've been that bit more gritty and sarcastic, and respond cynically to all that grand stuff. We are perhaps becoming more like the Americans nowadays cause of social media, but I think there was a bigger difference in culture when nemesis opened.

That being said, of course the market research point is the most important one for Nemesis and its refurbishment.

I’d argue that that isn’t necessarily the case. We are starting to move towards more story-driven rides in this country; things like Wicker Man have a great emphasis on story. John Wardley has said that the new Haunted House will have a “clever backstory”.

If Britons didn’t like immersive backstories, surely the parks wouldn’t bother putting them into attractions?

 

[Zeock]

The Merlin resort theme parks (so the ones that aren't Legoland) I would say are comparable with Seaworld and Busch Gardens. Thorpe Park is definitely very comparable to a Six Flags. Alton Towers is better but still not at the Universal/Disney level, but it doesn't need to be.
But it is not a UK vs USA cultural difference, it is a fully themed studio-owned park vs a mid-level theme park. All countries have different types of theme and amusement parks.

I would say that Thorpe doesn't really resemble Six Flags because it actually has some good theming in places such as Swarm Island and Amity. However, I agree with the comment.

 

[Sauron97]

I’d argue that that isn’t necessarily the case. We are starting to move towards more story-driven rides in this country; things like Wicker Man have a great emphasis on story. John Wardley has said that the new Haunted House will have a “clever backstory”.

If Britons didn’t like immersive backstories, surely the parks wouldn’t bother I putting them into attractions?

Wickerman is not story driven at all. It has a bit of a background pre show at the start, and then you go on the ride which hurls around a statue, with a vague human sacrifice theme.
Story driven would mean the ride would have a coherant narrative, with characters, and scenes, surely?

And @Matt N I never said British people didn't like backstories at all, I said that culturally, they don't like preachy grandiose stuff that lectures a story to riders or explains everything away. And the story driven rides that do work in the UK, generally don't take themselves too seriously and are quite comical and self depreciating, like Excalibur and Bubbleworks for example. Even Terror Tomb had that comical ridiculous part at the end with the mummies playing in a rock band. The american ones definitely do take themselves a lot more seriously.

Yknow, Jurassic Park the ride is really trying to do its best to tell you you're in a dinosaur park and that there's been a security breach. I think most british people would laugh if you tried to do that over here. Maybe we've changed, but we've always been a bit more on the gritty and cynical side.

Nemesis has a cool background, and there was a bit of a story added back in the 90s for advertising purposes; but the ride itself is quite vague, and was always like that. You can't quite figure what the creature is doing, or what it's really there for. And even the backstory was still open ended, just look at the cover and slogans, its all about mystery and intrigue.
From: https://twitter.com/ThemeParkGuide/status/1089555057098571776

The Merlin resort theme parks (so the ones that aren't Legoland) I would say are comparable with Seaworld and Busch Gardens. Thorpe Park is definitely very comparable to a Six Flags. Alton Towers is better but still not at the Universal/Disney level, but it doesn't need to be.
But it is not a UK vs USA cultural difference, it is a fully themed studio-owned park vs a mid-level theme park. All countries have different types of theme and amusement parks.

I don't think we're quite on the same pagelength on this. It's not so much about the parks as a whole or how big or high budget they are, its specifically about Nemesis, and what you can compare it with, and i think a lot of those six flags style parks aren't relevant to the discussion cause they don't produce the same kind of rides. Certainly not with the backstory, themed area, or style.

The point being made about Nemesis is similar to a lot of rides that were developed in the UK. Oblivion has the same kind of secret mysterious (but open ended) government theme. You can fill in the gaps about what's really going on yourself. Just like with Nemesis.