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[2024] Nemesis Reborn: Construction and Speculation

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ChristmasPud said:
I feel like this is a weird denial of reality. Ain't nobody even heard of Phalanx when Nemesis was designed and built, not one member of the public when they went on the ride, cos it didn't exist. You'd have needed buy a comic in 1995/6 (a far stretch that this had any relation to the ride) to know it at all, until Sub Terra came along.

Nobody is saying Phalanx isn't connected to Nemesis now, because we know Sub Terra. But Sub Terra was ride built many years later and not nearly as regarded as Nemesis.

It's like if Curse of Alton Manor held on to Dr Roodyn and the zombies just because it was now the "backstory" for the Haunted House after Duel. At least that was actually mentioned in the ride.

If people champion the Phalanx theme because they like it, absolutely fine. If people like it just "because" it's the Nemesis backstory, that's a bit silly.

I'd argue it doesn't matter anyway, cos the Phalanx theme isn't that great.
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Weird denial of reality 😂 rude but funny

Roller coaster themes are rarely outlined in great detail to guests who are riding it, and that was even more of a rarity in the 90’s (even Disney didn’t get too bogged down in story for their coasters back then).

To say that the Phalanx isn’t related to Nemesis prior to N:ST is just ignoring facts, it was subtle and mostly related to merchandise (explicitly in the comic and implied in the legend tape) but it was there.

Plus as mentioned ohhhh so many times theme park themes are not game of thrones or doctor who with “Cannon” they get turned and twisted around as new creatives get involved. That’s the nature of the beast.

If you don’t like the theme that’s fine, by all means explain why it doesn’t float your boat, but suggesting I have a weird denial of reality is laughable, maybe have a look in a mirror:
 
ChristmasPud said:
I feel like this is a weird denial of reality. Ain't nobody even heard of Phalanx when Nemesis was designed and built, not one member of the public when they went on the ride, cos it didn't exist.
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There has always been a (small) military aspect to Nemesis’s theme, going back to the original theme pitch (Not sure on the proper terminology - sorry!) The monster was pinned down by the military, this has always been the case. All Phalanx is is a name for whatever branch of the military pinned it down. The only thing added post launch was the name, but that part of the theme has always been there.
 
Dave said:
It’s got nothing to do with pedantics, as said you can dislike the use of Phalanx all you want, but to say it has nothing to do with Nemesis is factually incorrect, and ride themes cannon are not set in stone like the full works of JRR Tolkien!
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Unless the canon gets ripped up in favour of a multi-billion dollar company wanting to play with that IP.

Lore/canon can often change. Especially on things where the original story was vague to begin with. Some companies might hit a reset button or completely alter the background of a particular part of it. To some it's complete sacrilege to do so; but then you're arguing about the backstory of little plastic figures/Sci-fi TV show/big steel rollercoaster.

Without seeing the final product in an overall sense its hard to judge. Will they have learned lessons from Sub Terra's over the top and sometimes over the line aggressiveness? Will it respect the original vagueness or throw as much at the wall as possible?

Thing is, to most people, there were never considerations to a secret cult linked the the stones leading towards the ride entrance. It was just a creepy alien thing with a rollercoaster shooting around a pit. Attempting to force a story on top of this might seem tricky, but it's never exactly been laid out to those outside enthusiast circles the precise storyline chosen.

That's evidenced by people having arguments over what the riders/track even represent. Perhaps some precise storytelling will enhance the experience overall for some. And if not, well at least it's still Nemesis and can still complain about RAP holders taking up the back row.
 
Earthwürm said:
More importantly, if we have two Phalanx themed rides, do we refer to them collectively as The Phalanges?
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*Park
 
I don't see much denial going on in the posts above about this Phalanx bull crap being shoehorned in to the Nemesis lore at some point unless I'm mistaken? NST was even adorned with a "Nemesis" title. Someone inexplicably decided it would be a right laugh to change the lore of the Nemesis track itself from being tenticles to a "steel structure" that "pinned" it down as if it was a drunken bet with their mates that they could change a website description without anyone noticing. It happened, my personal view is that it was silly, but it did happen. But what also can't be denied is the clear NST influences in the theme thus far.

It's a perfectly reasonable view to have that any potential (and it is just potential at this stage) shouty military warzone theme will feel like it has more in common with NST than Nemesis itself. With an NST type theme, Nemesis will feel very different when viewed from a theming perspective to many people, regardless of what some mid 90's comic merch that almost no one is aware of says. I fully accept that the original Nemesis theme was so open to interpretation that a new cannon can easily be inserted should it tickle a marketing managers fancy. As intellectual and physical property of Merlin Entertainments, this is also their absolute right to do as they please.

But so far, it's been a change of thematic direction to many no less. We'll see how this pans out, but I get this feeling that there's a growing consensus among some of so much gratitude around the retrack happening in the first place, that anything will be accepted as long as the track and train layout reopens. Maybe to some people Nemesis is far more than some positive G's felt on the back row around a downwards helix?

Have things sunk this low? Are we so greatful that it's not being ripped out entirely and replaced with a gimmick laden Eurofighter or a memorial garden; that we're trying to scrape around to justify the fact it's track is coloured the same as 3 of the other coasters in park by debating the 'gloss' level of said cookie cutter colour in an attempt to differentiate it? Are we so greatful that we'll be able to experience that zero g roll over the station once more that we'll happily accept a theming invasion lifted from a failed ride ride that lasted 5 mins in the name of "marketability" with excuses of the theme being "technically" accurate?

I don't think the relationship between a ride that proudly displayed the "Nemesis" name above the queue line to excuse it's very existence in marketing material is up for debate here. NST did piggy back off of Nemesis to sell itself. I think it's more do with what Nemesis actually is/was to people who enjoy/enjoyed it, whatever that reason may be.
 
Honestly, this debate about the theming is getting frankly tedious. We are all putting two and two together and suspecting that will be the case...we literally have no clue what it'll be though given how many Merlin themes for their coasters of late often seem to have a similar theme of dark tract and dark theme, I can see why many are unhappy that it is just the same old stuff we're getting over the last few years.

I know many have said the Duel/Alton Manor topic is bad for the tedious speculation taking place though I'd argue this thread is even worse as if we have to put up with such despair and anger for another year when Nemesis returns then God help us all. At least the Alton Manor thread speculation will be ending soon.

I do think what set many off is the black track and how it is no different to 90% of Merlin coasters which I can understand but still...if the track was to return as white as always then I suspect many would still be angry that the park is being lazy in doing any changes so the sad thing is either if it was a return to it's as built 1994 state, totally differently look here or something being a mix of both then this whole retrack I'm afraid was doomed to fail as we'll never be satisfied no matter what we get come 2024.
 
Matt.GC said:
I don't see much denial going on in the posts above about this Phalanx bull crap being shoehorned in to the Nemesis lore at some point unless I'm mistaken? NST was even adorned with a "Nemesis" title. Someone inexplicably decided it would be a right laugh to change the lore of the Nemesis track itself from being tenticles to a "steel structure" that "pinned" it down as if it was a drunken bet with their mates that they could change a website description without anyone noticing. It happened, my personal view is that it was silly, but it did happen. But what also can't be denied is the clear NST influences in the theme thus far.

It's a perfectly reasonable view to have that any potential (and it is just potential at this stage) shouty military warzone theme will feel like it has more in common with NST than Nemesis itself. With an NST type theme, Nemesis will feel very different when viewed from a theming perspective to many people, regardless of what some mid 90's comic merch that almost no one is aware of says. I fully accept that the original Nemesis theme was so open to interpretation that a new cannon can easily be inserted should it tickle a marketing managers fancy. As intellectual and physical property of Merlin Entertainments, this is also their absolute right to do as they please.

But so far, it's been a change of thematic direction to many no less. We'll see how this pans out, but I get this feeling that there's a growing consensus among some of so much gratitude around the retrack happening in the first place, that anything will be accepted as long as the track and train layout reopens. Maybe to some people Nemesis is far more than some positive G's felt on the back row around a downwards helix?

Have things sunk this low? Are we so greatful that it's not being ripped out entirely and replaced with a gimmick laden Eurofighter or a memorial garden; that we're trying to scrape around to justify the fact it's track is coloured the same as 3 of the other coasters in park by debating the 'gloss' level of said cookie cutter colour in an attempt to differentiate it? Are we so greatful that we'll be able to experience that zero g roll over the station once more that we'll happily accept a theming invasion lifted from a failed ride ride that lasted 5 mins in the name of "marketability" with excuses of the theme being "technically" accurate?

I don't think the relationship between a ride that proudly displayed the "Nemesis" name above the queue line to excuse it's very existence in marketing material is up for debate here. NST did piggy back off of Nemesis to sell itself. I think it's more do with what Nemesis actually is/was to people who enjoy/enjoyed it, whatever that reason may be.
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The Nemesis track being turned into the structure that pinned down the monster rather than part of the monster itself is one of the examples of where later creatives have genuinely changed something that was clearly intended to be something different to the original creatives. I personally don’t get how they did that based on the visual cues.

That has nothing to do with the phalanx theme itself as that’s just the name given to the “no ordinary men” group suggested to have pinned down the creature.

I’m genuinely ambivalent about the Phalanx theme, I have no animosity to it nor any attachment to it and I have been riding Nemesis since 1994. I just find the revisionist commentary on this topic vaguely interesting.
 
QTXAdsy said:
Honestly, this debate about the theming is getting frankly tedious. We are all putting two and two together and suspecting that will be the case...we literally have no clue what it'll be though given how many Merlin themes for their coasters of late often seem to have a similar theme of dark tract and dark theme, I can see why many are unhappy that it is just the same old stuff we're getting over the last few years.

I know many have said the Duel/Alton Manor topic is bad for the tedious speculation taking place though I'd argue this thread is even worse as if we have to put up with such despair and anger for another year when Nemesis returns then God help us all. At least the Alton Manor thread speculation will be ending soon.

I do think what set many off is the black track and how it is no different to 90% of Merlin coasters which I can understand but still...if the track was to return as white as always then I suspect many would still be angry that the park is being lazy in doing any changes so the sad thing is either if it was a return to it's as built 1994 state, totally differently look here or something being a mix of both then this whole retrack I'm afraid was doomed to fail as we'll never be satisfied no matter what we get come 2024.
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Dismissing it as getting upset over yet another black tracked coaster misses the point entirely and has been ridiculed to death in this thread and others. If you just like Nemesis for the layout only, despite years of debate over what makes it what it is then fine. That's all good. I'm glad that the thought of something that follows the same layout as Nemesis but is themed around a failed flash in the pan attraction brings so much joy to people. That's what "theme' parks are all about isn't it?

But let's not pretend that opinions about the thematic direction of Alton's (arguably) best attraction is anything like repeatedly longing for some bizzare reincarnation of a ride that closed 20 years ago.
 
Had NST actually been good I doubt we'd be having this discussion about the Phalanx. Personally I have no issue with them. The backstory for Nemesis was always that the monster was pinned down with steel. All that's happened since is that the organisation which did it has become more focal to the story.
At this stage we don't even know if they will feature prominently when the ride reopens. Sure they played a major role in the rides closing but that makes sense as the event was all about the steel being removed from the monster.
 
Having followed three topics with endlessly repetitive discussion spinning circles sending me dizzy, I can only thank God that the closed season is two thirds over.
Other closed seasons have not been as bad as this one, bit of a shame really when there has been "good stuff" to discuss, instead we get endless yes it is, no it isn't, you must be deluded, no you live in an alternative reality.
Haunted House is being made over again, Nemesis is being retracked, and they are hoping for a new ride in a shed.
Can't we just be happy to have new shiny toys on the horizon?
 
We aren't meant to say get a life anymore sadly, bit rude apparently.
But I agree with the sentiment.
Nice to see nemesis being done over, it means the retrack will probably see out my lifetime riding.
Will be riding Icon for a decade longer if I'm lucky, because, you know, designed for retirement.
 
rob666 said:
Having followed three topics with endlessly repetitive discussion spinning circles sending me dizzy, I can only thank God that the closed season is two thirds over.
Other closed seasons have not been as bad as this one, bit of a shame really when there has been "good stuff" to discuss, instead we get endless yes it is, no it isn't, you must be deluded, no you live in an alternative reality.
Haunted House is being made over again, Nemesis is being retracked, and they are hoping for a new ride in a shed.
Can't we just be happy to have new shiny toys on the horizon?
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Life is more black and white these days. No central nuance and things are either 'good' or 'bad'.

Any change from the original (or in some cases a favourite version depending on type of media) is sometimes seen as bad and a affront to either the original creators, the audience or the hardcore fanbase.

I always perceived the Nemesis track to be part of the imprisoning structure. To me the "Tentacle Theory" seems a more recent concept to the theme and shows the success in creating a strong yet vague theme. I also didn't really get much of a worshipping cult vibe over the years.

Until we know the level of presence our Dr Who villain rejects will have the jury does not have enough evidence to convict. As mentioned they may have also learned lessons from the Sub Terra feedback but this is questionable given the park's methodology of decision making.

Also in terms of TCAAM the rumours being portrayed as fact added onto people almost demanding the original be returned has made that the burdenous topic it is. Again its like the constant speculation of films hoping that it's a particular adaptation of a particular story and then foaming at the mouth when it's slightly different.

Basically fans of all mediums need to be stopped.
 
rob666 said:
Fans of all types of everything need to be encouraged.
Repeated meaningless drivel from venting moody thoosies needs to be stopped.
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Have to agree, I've stopped following this thread in recent weeks as frankly I don't have a strong view on which theme they should/shouldn't go with - as long as what they do is done well I'll be happy. Even if it is black...

I do think some fans get carried away and actually think they can take creative direction out of the hands of the developers and dictate it themselves, tbh it smacks of a sense of entitlement. Star Wars fans are the worst! Anyhoo back to topic...
 
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