[2024] Nemesis Reborn: Construction and Speculation

[RyanUK]

*cracks knuckles*. I know @QTXAdsy has already posted and mentioned some of the points I'm about to mention, but just like Mastermind...I've started so I'll finish. I'm gonna post one more time on this subject to try and put this to bed, as I feel you're missing what was actually said by John at TT@20 (I'm assuming this is the quote you're referring to) and just constantly picking one specific phrase to suit what you believe was said. To put it bluntly, no one has been "sold a lie".

The full quote reveals that the actual reference of "Nemesis as we know it will not change" was part of an answer talking about the ride itself, not the whole experience (theming etc):

Now if you consider that wider answer, it's clear he was fully aware, and in fact stated that there would be some changes made to Nemesis. However the way the coaster rides and behaves would not change.

Now let's look at his answer to a question about what potential changes could be made:

Of course what you want to define as "bells and whistles" is up for discussion. Regardless of that, to me it's very clear from his comments that there was an awareness that there would be changes made to Nemesis and it wasn't going to be rebuilt exactly as it was.

Now if you're not referring to TT@20, there were other quotes during interviews with him when the ride closed, which again to me is a reference to how the coaster rides more than anything else. Again, it also hints at changes:

Now it's abundantly clear that you don't agree with the changes being made, as you've pointed out in your posts. However, to suggest you've been lied to I feel is incorrect, as in those comments above he is pretty much confirming that things would be different when the ride eventually reopens.

The ride is quite literally having millions spent on it to keep it going. To say they're "ruining" an iconic ride when they're spending that much money on it and without seeing much of a hint of the end product bar a difference in track colour and a potential minor name change is a crazy comment in my opinion.

I don't mind if it has Reborn tacked onto it. We'll all still call it Nemesis, in the same way as I don't go reeling off HEX: The Legend of the Towers or RITA: Queen of Speed. Like it or not, for this amount of money to be spent on an attraction, they simply must have a new selling point. If that's through a theme change, colour change or name change then so be it. If the end product is decent and it keeps the ride going for another few decades, then I'm all for it.

@Craig, thankyou. Yes, I was mainly referring to John’s comments from TT20. I’ve been back to the video and listened to those points again. Whilst your responses to Johns quotes add up, my view is still the same. I can’t remember off hand John’s comments from other videos and interviews without going back and listening to those. Clearly you and the 20 others who’ve liked this post disagree with my view, but let’s agree to disagree. I knew this post was going to be controversial but I went ahead anyway. Merlin made the decision to proceed with this project and let’s remember, they have grown a reputation to take a classic ride and change it by throwing in a few surprises along the way…and they haven’t all been good.

Whatever we end up with will not be as good as what we’ve had since 1994. Contrary to popular belief, enthusiasts from all over the globe who’ve rode Nemesis actually enjoy the look and theme of the ride - the majority of those who come back over and over are exactly that type of enthusiast, and not just someone who enjoys riding it. John knows full well that online through various platforms, tails wag one hell of a lot and the debates are electric. Great! But let’s be clear here - NOTHING about the ride has been officially revealed yet, and here we have a topic with members who are quite sure of its future. Speculation has gone on a while here, and it’s got to a level where it’s not completely enjoyable anymore - we all choose to come and read and respond even if we don’t like everything we read. I’m not calling John a liar for one minute, but for those who believe what he says, remember that he might have only said what people want to hear, to keep the tails wagging - and what we end up with might still go against Johns comments.

When it comes to that quote, I think this is regarding just the track layout which technically speaking if he was talking about that then he wasn't lying...just left out the theming aspect which I suppose has led to this.

All I'm hoping for is not an all black track and support coloured coaster for at least it to have a secondary colour in which I could tolerate that if we get this black track.

I mean, had Merlin not intervined and done this work there would be no Nemesis at all in a few years. That sort of makes your point mute.

A good attempt to mute your point, but you didn’t succeed. As we know, this retrack is all about securing the rides future for many years to come, and health and safety plays a big part in it because of the steel track and supports that Nemesis is built from. If you believe Nemesis wouldn’t be there in a few years if this work was not done, I’m sorry to say that you and many others are very much mistaken. Allow me to explain…

Over the years as Nemesis has got older, the park has had numerous tests done on the rides steel track and columns by en external company. They all passed nicely and like many reports, highlighted the negatives of the state of the ride, allowing it to continue operating safely. Now without getting too technical, I know a little bit about steel and the different grades of it. It’s designed to last a lot longer than 30 years, especially in structural grade steel. You’ve only got to look at the 9/11 steel reports to realise there was nothing wrong with those towers steel (I’ve done a lot of reading and watching on that, I’m no conspiracy theorist but despite all of the reporting on that it’s really not hard to understand). With Nemesis, B&M built a ride that was designed to last. It has and could’ve easily lasted a lot longer than 28 years. There are rollercoasters in the world older than that - granted, they don’t have as much throughout and stress as Nemesis did, but it has lasted. And despite the stress Nemesis took over nearly 3 decades, it’s not a case of it was wearing down and unable to cope for much longer. Those sections of track are not only heavy, they’re perfectly intact and at no risk of danger whatsoever.

If this work wasn’t done, the ride would still be going strong 10 years from now. The access all areas gallery of Nemesis at the outdated Towers Almanac website is living proof of this, as those photos were taken circa 10 years ago, and in them we can see scaffolding where the station exterior was being refurbished, and during these works of this closed season I believe an external company assessed the ride structure.

I’m sorry but I reject what you say about there being no Nemesis in a few years. Research steel more if you like.

 

[AT86]

Whatever we end up with will not be as good as what we’ve had since 1994.

Well at least you aren’t jumping to any conclusions.

 

[Tuggerz]

You’ve only got to look at the 9/11 steel reports to realise there was nothing wrong with those towers steel (I’ve done a lot of reading and watching on that, I’m no conspiracy theorist but despite all of the reporting on that it’s really not hard to understand). With Nemesis, B&M built a ride that was designed to last.

jet fuel doesn’t melt steel nemesis beams…

 

[Jb85]

@RyanUK good lord your like a broken record dude.

 

[jmc]

@RyanUK are you seriously comparing a rollercoasters longevity to a terrorist attack?

Unless you have been privy to the entire maintenance history of Nemesis, there is absolutely no way you can seriously suggest that based on - as you said - outdated 10 year old photos that the ride doesnt need any of the work they are currently doing.

You make a lot of points completely based on anything but fact, and contradict yourself entirely. This being my favourite:-

NOTHING about the ride has been officially revealed yet, and here we have a topic with members who are quite sure of its future

Whatever we end up with will not be as good as what we’ve had since 1994

 

[RyanUK]

@RyanUK are you seriously comparing a rollercoasters longevity to a terrorist attack?

Unless you have been privy to the entire maintenance history of Nemesis, there is absolutely no way you can seriously suggest that based on - as you said - outdated 10 year old photos that the ride doesnt need any of the work they are currently doing.

You make a lot of points completely based on anything but fact, and contradict yourself entirely. This being my favourite:-

Of course I’m not comparing it to that. Research steel grades and then come back to me with a more sensible answer. As for contradictions, I’m not the one who knows how this rides future will turn out. Others seem to know though! I say it won’t be as good as what we’ve had since 1994 because the last 30 years have been brilliant - topping it takes some doing.

 

[rob666]

Mr Pedantic here...
Moot point, not mute point.
Thank you, that is all.

 

[Rob]

I am pretty certain that Merlin would not be spending millions of pounds on re-tracking Nemesis if they knew full well it could continue to operate as it is for another 30 years. It’s as simple as that!

And how you can say with such certainty that it won’t be as good as what we’ve had since 1994 is quite beyond me. Although if you’ve already decided that then nothing they can do will change your mind.

Parts of Nemesis have been in a bit of a state for a number of years now, namely where all of the waterfalls used to be and the lake under the loop. One would imagine those presentational issues will be sorted one way or another.

 

[Poisson]

Ah yes, Towers, known to spend money on frivolous upkeep. No wait, the other one.

Why would they do that?

 

[DistortAMG]

Of course I’m not comparing it to that. Research steel grades and then come back to me with a more sensible answer. As for contradictions, I’m not the one who knows how this rides future will turn out. Others seem to know though! I say it won’t be as good as what we’ve had since 1994 because the last 30 years have been brilliant - topping it takes some doing.

Why don't you research steel fatigue? Google it.

Merlin have and do carry out expensive, non destructive testing on all their coasters every year to find and repair metal fatigue. Something which grows and grows with age. Do you really think that Merlin, one of the tightest companies around, would be spending millions and millions on brand new supports and track if it was not needed. Really? You cannot be that naïve surely.

You are throwing out these words such as steel grades without knowing much about the issue. The grade of steel used is not the issue, what is the issue is metal fatigue. Said steel having load cycles (cyclic loading) as trains pass over sections of track and supports, on the structure all day, every day for 28 years. Even the highest grading of steel is not immune to fatigue like this. You would not get fatigue like this in a steel building by the way, for many reasons. Temperature, weather and other factors also play their part in fatigue development, but with Nemesis, the number one cause is almost certainly, those heavy trains, pulling even heavier forces on the structure as it barges it's way around the circuit.

But fatigue is a real issue, it grows with time, it has got to the point now it is more economical to replace the whole thing than patch up the fatigue every few years.

EDIT: To add to this, look at this photo of Black Hole at Alton Towers from years gone by.



See all the white dye / paint around the weld joins? This is there for one reason and one reason only, to make the metal fatigue cracks in the track visible, so that they can be fixed and corrected. It is around the welds and joins mainly because these are the relative weak spots and the most likely of places to develop fatigue, other places can develop it too though. This hammers home the point even more, you can have the highest grading of steel on the planet, but complex structures like track are still going to have weld joins in, those weld joins will be relatively weaker than the actual crystal structures in the non joined pieces of metal. Therefor fatigue will develop and grow, end of story. This is a common thing across metal.

The testing here, using paint / dye is one method commonly used, along side ultrasonic / x-ray testing. Which are the two main no destructive ways to test for fatigue on coasters. With Black Hole being an indoor coaster, they could get away with leaving the dye / paint on year round, because it would not be seen due to the ride being so dark. Every single coaster on the planet has to go through this very regularly. Very important and very dangerous if left unchecked.

Get a paper clip, start bending it back and forth.....eventually it will snap. This is fatigue in action. Due to the very weak nature of a paper clip, you can cause it to happen within seconds or minute's. Big, heavy duty structures like Nemesis, take years and years.

 

[John_P]

Sir we're hearing reports that Nemesis is now being called Nemesis Reborn

 

[SMT_]

If something went in, I reckon it'd be the turn around after the zero G. Not sure what it would be though.

There'll be hell to pay if the weathered bed sheet up in that corner disappears for good.

 

[Poisson]

[Tragic geek post ahead]

Nemesis pulls 3.5G at its most extreme. If we assume the average rider weighs 75KG (and its probably more than that in reality), a full train of riders (not including train weight) is 2.4 tons when it is stationary or 1G. At 3.5G, this becomes 8.4 tons.

Silver Star's trains, which is the only B&M info I can find from a lazy Google, weigh 15 tons for 9 rows of 4. Using that, Nemesis' trains would weigh 13.3 tons at 1G or 46.5 tons at 3.5G. Full weight at full G would then be put at just shy of 55 tons. 30 trains an hour would subject it to 1650 tons an hour, 7 hours a day would subject it to 11550 tons a day, or the equivalent in weight of HMS Belfast. Multiply that by 7 days a week for roughly 8 months a year for 28 years in a damp pit in Staffordshire, it's not a great leap to assume it might have seen better days.

 

[Shaggy_Dog_]

[Tragic geek post ahead]

Nemesis pulls 3.5G at its most extreme. If we assume the average rider weighs 75KG (and its probably more than that in reality), a full train of riders (not including train weight) is 2.4 tons when it is stationary or 1G. At 3.5G, this becomes 8.4 tons.

Silver Star's trains, which is the only B&M info I can find from a lazy Google, weigh 15 tons for 9 rows of 4. Using that, Nemesis' trains would weigh 13.3 tons at 1G or 46.5 tons at 3.5G. Full weight at full G would then be put at just shy of 55 tons. 30 trains an hour would subject it to 1650 tons an hour, 7 hours a day would subject it to 11550 tons a day, or the equivalent of HMS Belfast hanging from it. Multiply that by 7 days a week for roughly 8 months a year for 28 years in a damp pit in Staffordshire, it's not a great leap to assume it might have seen better days.

 

[rob666]

Soooper geekery, but a little flawed I think.
The track is subjected to a fifty ton load, sixty times an hour.
That is all the load it takes, ever.
There is no load pressure of 1650 tons, there is no load of the size of HMS Belfast hanging from the track...ever.
You can't add the loads over time together.
Engineering simply does not work like that.
The track never takes a 1650 ton load, it would collapse if it did, it takes a maximum of fifty tons, repeatedly.
Likewise if you sat a big fat ship on the top, it would break.
Every last time.

 

[Poisson]

Well yes, I'm not saying they actually hang the weight off the track as quite rightly it'd be crushed. This is normal grade steel after all.

The weight listed is the forces added together and experienced over time, not what's experienced by the track at one point. Imagine how massive the spine would be to support that tonnage in one hit. I've edited my post to use equivalent rather than suggesting it's actual.

 

[Dave]

@Craig, thankyou. Yes, I was mainly referring to John’s comments from TT20. I’ve been back to the video and listened to those points again. Whilst your responses to Johns quotes add up, my view is still the same. I can’t remember off hand John’s comments from other videos and interviews without going back and listening to those. Clearly you and the 20 others who’ve liked this post disagree with my view, but let’s agree to disagree. I knew this post was going to be controversial but I went ahead anyway. Merlin made the decision to proceed with this project and let’s remember, they have grown a reputation to take a classic ride and change it by throwing in a few surprises along the way…and they haven’t all been good.

Whatever we end up with will not be as good as what we’ve had since 1994. Contrary to popular belief, enthusiasts from all over the globe who’ve rode Nemesis actually enjoy the look and theme of the ride - the majority of those who come back over and over are exactly that type of enthusiast, and not just someone who enjoys riding it. John knows full well that online through various platforms, tails wag one hell of a lot and the debates are electric. Great! But let’s be clear here - NOTHING about the ride has been officially revealed yet, and here we have a topic with members who are quite sure of its future. Speculation has gone on a while here, and it’s got to a level where it’s not completely enjoyable anymore - we all choose to come and read and respond even if we don’t like everything we read. I’m not calling John a liar for one minute, but for those who believe what he says, remember that he might have only said what people want to hear, to keep the tails wagging - and what we end up with might still go against Johns comments.




A good attempt to mute your point, but you didn’t succeed. As we know, this retrack is all about securing the rides future for many years to come, and health and safety plays a big part in it because of the steel track and supports that Nemesis is built from. If you believe Nemesis wouldn’t be there in a few years if this work was not done, I’m sorry to say that you and many others are very much mistaken. Allow me to explain…

Over the years as Nemesis has got older, the park has had numerous tests done on the rides steel track and columns by en external company. They all passed nicely and like many reports, highlighted the negatives of the state of the ride, allowing it to continue operating safely. Now without getting too technical, I know a little bit about steel and the different grades of it. It’s designed to last a lot longer than 30 years, especially in structural grade steel. You’ve only got to look at the 9/11 steel reports to realise there was nothing wrong with those towers steel (I’ve done a lot of reading and watching on that, I’m no conspiracy theorist but despite all of the reporting on that it’s really not hard to understand). With Nemesis, B&M built a ride that was designed to last. It has and could’ve easily lasted a lot longer than 28 years. There are rollercoasters in the world older than that - granted, they don’t have as much throughout and stress as Nemesis did, but it has lasted. And despite the stress Nemesis took over nearly 3 decades, it’s not a case of it was wearing down and unable to cope for much longer. Those sections of track are not only heavy, they’re perfectly intact and at no risk of danger whatsoever.

If this work wasn’t done, the ride would still be going strong 10 years from now. The access all areas gallery of Nemesis at the outdated Towers Almanac website is living proof of this, as those photos were taken circa 10 years ago, and in them we can see scaffolding where the station exterior was being refurbished, and during these works of this closed season I believe an external company assessed the ride structure.

I’m sorry but I reject what you say about there being no Nemesis in a few years. Research steel more if you like.

Others have responded as to the issues with steel fatigue but the other major issue they where having was the shifting footers. They repeatedly had to re enforce the footers and it was I suspect becoming harder to do without removing the track.

Nemesis was starting to sheer bolts fairly regularly by the end as they where likely under so much tension from the footers being out of alignment with their original position.

As for the theme it is still a bit cyclic, I think people are within their rights to dislike the idea of change but to say there will definitely be a worse ride that 1994 before we even have any new track in place seems a little presumptive. Yes Nemesis is loved by enthusiasts all over the world but they love the ride, the theme is secondary (look at Black Mamba, it’s beautifully themed (far better than Nemesis) but the layout is average so it doesn’t have the same acclaim.

 

[rob666]

Accept change, and accept change is ever accelerating.
The future is coming quicker, nothing in civilisation is permanent.
Good old Alvin.

 

[Squiggs]

Accept change, and accept change is ever accelerating.
The future is coming quicker, nothing in civilisation is permanent.
Good old Alvin.

Alvin has changed... he's now bad new Alvin.

 

[RyanUK]

Why don't you research steel fatigue? Google it.

Merlin have and do carry out expensive, non destructive testing on all their coasters every year to find and repair metal fatigue. Something which grows and grows with age. Do you really think that Merlin, one of the tightest companies around, would be spending millions and millions on brand new supports and track if it was not needed. Really? You cannot be that naïve surely.

You are throwing out these words such as steel grades without knowing much about the issue. The grade of steel used is not the issue, what is the issue is metal fatigue. Said steel having load cycles (cyclic loading) as trains pass over sections of track and supports, on the structure all day, every day for 28 years. Even the highest grading of steel is not immune to fatigue like this. You would not get fatigue like this in a steel building by the way, for many reasons. Temperature, weather and other factors also play their part in fatigue development, but with Nemesis, the number one cause is almost certainly, those heavy trains, pulling even heavier forces on the structure as it barges it's way around the circuit.

But fatigue is a real issue, it grows with time, it has got to the point now it is more economical to replace the whole thing than patch up the fatigue every few years.

EDIT: To add to this, look at this photo of Black Hole at Alton Towers from years gone by.



See all the white dye / paint around the weld joins? This is there for one reason and one reason only, to make the metal fatigue cracks in the track visible, so that they can be fixed and corrected. It is around the welds and joins mainly because these are the relative weak spots and the most likely of places to develop fatigue, other places can develop it too though. This hammers home the point even more, you can have the highest grading of steel on the planet, but complex structures like track are still going to have weld joins in, those weld joins will be relatively weaker than the actual crystal structures in the non joined pieces of metal. Therefor fatigue will develop and grow, end of story. This is a common thing across metal.

The testing here, using paint / dye is one method commonly used, along side ultrasonic / x-ray testing. Which are the two main no destructive ways to test for fatigue on coasters. With Black Hole being an indoor coaster, they could get away with leaving the dye / paint on year round, because it would not be seen due to the ride being so dark. Every single coaster on the planet has to go through this very regularly. Very important and very dangerous if left unchecked.

Get a paper clip, start bending it back and forth.....eventually it will snap. This is fatigue in action. Due to the very weak nature of a paper clip, you can cause it to happen within seconds or minute's. Big, heavy duty structures like Nemesis, take years and years.

I dont need to - I know about steel fatigue and that it happens on rollercoaster tracks more than buildings, that is obvious. There is very little evidence to suggest Nemesis had signs of fatigue over the years - infact, hardly any. And no, this whole retrack project was not needed. Maybe some work to the footers and supports where necessary, but per usual Merlin have gone the extra step and decided the whole ride needs replacing.

Unless you are using a steel paperclip, that is the most stupidest comparison I have ever seen. For a start, paperclips are made of a much weaker metal. And if you were to bend Nemesis, it would, as you say, take years and years - a lot more than the last 30. You've really contradicted yourself there.

I am pretty certain that Merlin would not be spending millions of pounds on re-tracking Nemesis if they knew full well it could continue to operate as it is for another 30 years. It’s as simple as that!

And how you can say with such certainty that it won’t be as good as what we’ve had since 1994 is quite beyond me. Although if you’ve already decided that then nothing they can do will change your mind.

Parts of Nemesis have been in a bit of a state for a number of years now, namely where all of the waterfalls used to be and the lake under the loop. One would imagine those presentational issues will be sorted one way or another.

I can say that quite easily. Even during Air's changeover to Galactica, I knew it was not going to be as good. If you're referring to the track under the waterfalls, of course it would've gotten into state naturally.