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[2025] Project Ocean: New Forbidden Valley Flat Ride

Dave said:
They haven’t removed three, they had some tacky fair rides on hire which is a revenue spend not capex.

I forgot about Hex, so they are refurbing 4 old rides. It’s not news to refurbish old rides, but fact is they never did, there has been a regime change and now they are so it is noteworthy.

The OP was effectively saying there was no real capex spend which is obviously inconsistent with observed reality. Operational budget cuts yes, but at the moment capex seems to be better than historical Merlin.
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It doesn't matter how you count the beans...three rides were removed.
Hex was promised this year...only just.
Skyride refurbishment, tardy, to be polite.
But I agree completely with your last point, proper investment is finally taking place.

Back on topic, I think the ride platform repositioning might be because the old foundation was slowly shifting down the slope, and the new spot is more stable.
 
Merlin Entertainments Limited, company number 08700412, have operated the park for almost 2 decades. In that time they have opened multiple attractions, many being quite significant investments.

70%/ of the shareholding has changed, but KIRKBI still held 30% of the shares when Merlin were listed. The business has now been delisted for as long as they were listed for, 6 years! As is standard with most businesses, personnel has changed over time (not concurrently with the ownership structure), and the outgoing CEO that often seems to be blamed for everything commissioned Alton's two biggest capital investments of the last decade, Wickerman and Nemesis. Before that, he also commissioned The Smiler, and Thirteen.

He also paused large scale capital expenditure for a few years, which now seems to have been restarted but is just being spent on different things. Throughout this, KIRKBI have retained either the biggest, or joint biggest stake in the same business.

Let's not pretend this is some brand new regime. It's the same business, only with a fairly new CEO (who speaks of being less interested in the industry than the previous one) and the pressures of being publicly listed have been relieved. The money going in to building a single new flat and repairing attractions that have existed for years and should never have got to such a state in the first place, is just repackaged cash that the park was deprived of while Merlin was being prepped for a new investor to move in. More of that investment deprivation happened under the new ownership structure than it did under the old one.
 
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Dave said:
They haven’t removed three, they had some tacky fair rides on hire which is a revenue spend not capex.
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Ripsaw
Enterprise
Submission
Twirling Toadstool (Ok this kinda got replaced with Flavios Fandango)

Going back 20 years ago Boneshaker never got replaced, it only became Boneshaker after Engergizer was moved to make room for Submission but then three years later it was gone altogether.
 
jon81uk said:
Ripsaw
Enterprise
Submission
Twirling Toadstool (Ok this kinda got replaced with Flavios Fandango)

Going back 20 years ago Boneshaker never got replaced, it only became Boneshaker after Engergizer was moved to make room for Submission but then three years later it was gone altogether.
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And you're right to point all of those out. For all intents and purposes, it is the same business. There's significant continuity.

Even if, after spending as much time private now as they were listed, an arbitrary line is being attempted to be drawn between old and new eras to excuse poor decisions, what's the excuse for Enterprise being removed 2 years ago without replacement?
 
jon81uk said:
Ripsaw
Enterprise
Submission
Twirling Toadstool (Ok this kinda got replaced with Flavios Fandango)

Going back 20 years ago Boneshaker never got replaced, it only became Boneshaker after Engergizer was moved to make room for Submission but then three years later it was gone altogether.
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Those where not the three Rob was referencing and with the exception of Enterprise which was way beyond end of life all occurred under Varney.

It’s clear Merlin have historically hated flat rides, Heide park had the flat ride grave yard area to prove it. But that wasn’t the discussion.


Matt.GC said:
Merlin Entertainments Limited, company number 08700412, have operated the park for almost 2 decades. In that time they have opened multiple attractions, many being quite significant investments.

70%/ of the shareholding has changed, but KIRKBI still held 30% of the shares when Merlin were listed. The business has now been delisted for as long as they were listed for, 6 years! As is standard with most businesses, personnel has changed over time (not concurrently with the ownership structure), and the outgoing CEO that often seems to be blamed for everything commissioned Alton's two biggest capital investments of the last decade, Wickerman and Nemesis. Before that, he also commissioned The Smiler, and Thirteen.

He also paused large scale capital expenditure for a few years, which now seems to have been restarted but is just being spent on different things. Throughout this, KIRKBI have retained either the biggest, or joint biggest stake in the same business.

Let's not pretend this is some brand new regime. It's the same business, only with a fairly new CEO (who speaks of being less interested in the industry than the previous one) and the pressures of being publicly listed have been relieved. The money going in to building a single new flat and repairing attractions that have existed for years and should never have got to such a state in the first place, is just repackaged cash that the park was deprived of while Merlin was being prepped for a new investor to move in. More of that investment deprivation happened under the new ownership structure than it did under the old one.
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In that 6 years we had a pandemic, everyone seems to forget that.

Regime changes occur in all business and in all business when they occur you get strategic changes to decision making. Applying the decision making logic of 2015 to 2025 is irrelevant even if the company number is the same.

Fact is for the first time in 15 years they are investing in flat rides. To say they are not is just factually incorrect. Their attitude to operational budget setting hasn’t changed, their low pay model hasn’t changed, their food and beverage model has got worse but capex spend on filler attractions and investment in old ride refurbishment has. It’s just a fact.
 
Dave said:
In that 6 years we had a pandemic, everyone seems to forget that.

Regime changes occur in all business and in all business when they occur you get strategic changes to decision making. Applying the decision making logic of 2015 to 2025 is irrelevant even if the company number is the same.

Fact is for the first time in 15 years they are investing in flat rides. To say they are not is just factually incorrect. Their attitude to operational budget setting hasn’t changed, their low pay model hasn’t changed, their food and beverage model has got worse but capex spend on filler attractions and investment in old ride refurbishment has. It’s just a fact.
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No one forgets the pandemic. And they came out of it knowing they had capacity issues and installed temporary rides, which indeed backs up your point about changing attitudes towards flat rides, but this happened under bogeyman Varney I might add! The guy who gets conveniently wheeled out to try and apportion blame for removed flats and broken rides, but not at all mentioned when people gush over Nemesis and the increases in operational expenditure coming out of Covid

You've skirted over the issue there, the business has the same biggest shareholder as it's always had, it's been delisted for 6 years, and recently changed CEO. There is no single big switch in strategy, only evolutionary changes to it. There is no sudden border line between old Merlin and new that people seem to want to draw upon to cling on to hope that this isn't basically as good as it's going to get right now. You'll be waiting forever until the bloke who vacuums Scott O'Neils office down in Poole to be replaced by someone new otherwise. So discussing the decision making logic between 2015 and 2025 is completely relevant, as it's marked by a number of progressive changes over a (long) drawn out period of time. The way the situation is often discussed, you'd be forgiven for thinking that a completely unrelated company had bought the park all of a sudden.

This is the first time in years they have invested in a flat ride. A single one. Having removed their last permanent one without replacement 2 years ago, and the temporary filler ones without replacement a year ago. Their attitude towards capital investment hasn't really changed much either, it's not better than historical Merlin at all, they've just redirected what it's being spent on. Keeping old attractions working, and installing a single flat ride (having removed 4) instead of getting things like Wickerman or Nemesis.
 
Dave said:
with the exception of Enterprise which was way beyond end of life all occurred under Varney.
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But I think this confirms the overall lack of forward planning. Merlin, Alton Towers and Merlin Magic Making just focus on "the big new ride" with no thought to long-term maintenance of the surrounding area, or how to maintain structures and no thought about succession plans at the end of life. Enterprise should of had a plan to replace it, even if just with another Enterprise. Look at Thirteen and the scaffolding, done as a cheap way of covering up the building, when they could have done the stonework effect across more of the structure, increased initial costs but significantly less maintanance.
 
I think people easily forget new management also brought back Sub terror, after years we thought the ride was removed. This is another flat ride along side Hex and the new flat there currently building. I’m sure there is a long term plan for more, hence the demand for the retro squad and arguably installing them in the first place? They’re obviously aware of this issue do we have to keep bringing this up on a daily bases?

I honestly can’t wait for Hex and the Skyride to open as so sick of hearing about it all now.
 
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GooseOnTheLoose said:
We've also been down an unacknowledged dark attraction since July, albeit an upcharge, with The Alton Towers Dungeons being "temporarily closed".
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I really hope the Dungeons does not return after Scarefest, and they actually look at bringing the building back as a included-in-admission attraction. Do I think that will happen though? Not sure.
(Not the right topic to discuss this, mind 😜)
 
James said:
I think if we only see a flat in Forbidden Valley next year, instead of multiple flat rides. It’s fair to question whether this over-engineering (and likely high cost) for the sake of one flat ride is worth it. They could have easily placed a new top spin on the existing site with minimal work. Ripsaw, Submission, Enterprise… all flat rides with theming but not ‘heavily’ themed, that would suit just fine in 2025.

Time will tell, and none of us can judge until it is revealed exactly what is coming in 2025 and what Project Ocean entails.

My only concern is a potential lack of theming (hopefully they have the money). Will this become the new Air tunnel? Bare ugly concrete left on show? Can't wait for moaning about something else. 🥰
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I would say yes it is worth it. You could make the same argument for many a themepark attraction.

Expedition Everest has a huge over engineering mountain, is it worth it or needed? Absolutely.

Oblivion has a huge over engineered hole into the ground that took up half the budget, is it worth it or needed, Absolutely worth it, deffo no needed. They could have got away with building a coaster that was not underground and spent the money else where, but they chose not to. We have a great attraction as a result.

The same argument could be made time and time again for attractions at almost any park in the world.

Over engineering and going above and beyond is a very important part in making attractions great and unique to the park they are in.

We don't want another Ripsaw very similar to how it was which was very similar to how almost every park on the planet have theirs setup. This is very unique in its exceution t Alton Towers. Something they are famous for, Hex, Nemesis, Oblivion to name a few very unique attractions. This appears to be adding to that list.
 
Some of us think the over-engineered hole for Oblivion simply wasn't worth it, and a lot of people said exactly that back in the day, as they do now.
Too short a ride for all that excavation...should have done more than a single drop.
 
It does, but there should be more after, and I don't care if it was a prototype!

I saw that hole being dug out...it was huge.
They could, and should, have made more use of it.
You could have fitted the Black Hole down there about four times over.
 
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Always felt Oblivion could have had a slightly longer layout after the hole with maybe a half loop coming out of the hole and maybe the odd helix just to give it an extra edge.

I know that it would not be possible either to planning or how the ride loses speed after exiting the hole but if they were to do a Nemesis Reborn job of a giving it am extension to its layout then honestly I wouldn't mind if it help added to its experience unlike others who will go apoplectic at the thought of tweaking Blivy's layout even if unlike with Nemesis it can be argued that it could have that little bit more added to it.
 
QTXAdsy said:
Always felt Oblivion could have had a slightly longer layout after the hole with maybe a half loop coming out of the hole and maybe the odd helix just to give it an extra edge.

I know that it would not be possible either to planning or how the ride loses speed after exiting the hole but if they were to do a Nemesis Reborn job of a giving it am extension to its layout then honestly I wouldn't mind if it help added to its experience unlike others who will go apoplectic at the thought of tweaking Blivy's layout even if unlike with Nemesis it can be argued that it could have that little bit more added to it.
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Blivvy's shuttles don't have springloaded wheels though, so can't invert (hence why the drop isn't truly vertical).
 
Blivy should have been longer ether an underground portion like a helix or bunny hop thing but owing to it's proximity to the outer edge of the park it could have been moved closer to the tree in the centre of x sector (just next to where the fried crap stall is) hence giving it more room for a longer layout
 
Matt.GC said:
No one forgets the pandemic. And they came out of it knowing they had capacity issues and installed temporary rides, which indeed backs up your point about changing attitudes towards flat rides, but this happened under bogeyman Varney I might add! The guy who gets conveniently wheeled out to try and apportion blame for removed flats and broken rides, but not at all mentioned when people gush over Nemesis and the increases in operational expenditure coming out of Covid

You've skirted over the issue there, the business has the same biggest shareholder as it's always had, it's been delisted for 6 years, and recently changed CEO. There is no single big switch in strategy, only evolutionary changes to it. There is no sudden border line between old Merlin and new that people seem to want to draw upon to cling on to hope that this isn't basically as good as it's going to get right now. You'll be waiting forever until the bloke who vacuums Scott O'Neils office down in Poole to be replaced by someone new otherwise. So discussing the decision making logic between 2015 and 2025 is completely relevant, as it's marked by a number of progressive changes over a (long) drawn out period of time. The way the situation is often discussed, you'd be forgiven for thinking that a completely unrelated company had bought the park all of a sudden.

This is the first time in years they have invested in a flat ride. A single one. Having removed their last permanent one without replacement 2 years ago, and the temporary filler ones without replacement a year ago. Their attitude towards capital investment hasn't really changed much either, it's not better than historical Merlin at all, they've just redirected what it's being spent on. Keeping old attractions working, and installing a single flat ride (having removed 4) instead of getting things like Wickerman or Nemesis.
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Nobody is saying Varney was a bogey man or that Scott O’Neil is some sort of messiah. Varney was in my opinion a poor CEO but had the ability to get somethings right. O’Neil is unknown as any changes wouldn’t manifest itself until 2025 from a strategic perspective (In year operational budget decision making I don’t see any sign of a change from Merlin).

The change in CEO simply provides a clear boundary between two regimes, which will always create a change in strategy. You add to that a change in leadership at Towers as well and people will rightly scrutinise any change in said strategy. The whole debate came about because people where making statements about capex that where ostensibly lacking in any fact.
 
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