• ℹ️ Heads up...

    This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks.

Abortion: Right or Wrong?

AshleeKel said:
But the man doesn't carry the child. The woman does. Thus your point is invalid.
Click to expand...

I find that to be of the highest order of ignorance.

If a consensual act has occurred that has resulted in a "normal" circumstance, there is no way a woman should have free reign to make that decision.

That's an abomination, as much so as taking the choice away for those in unideal and difficult circumstances. Both ends of that scale are abhorrent to me.

My opinions of course.

EDIT: I add, I respect everyone's views on this a very complex subject.
 
TheMan said:
Rowe said:
I believe abortion should be available everywhere in the world because it is the woman's right to decide on the fate of the child as she is the carrier, nobody else should make the decision for her at all, and she is the one who weighs the pros and cons.
Click to expand...

If two people conceive a child, it in no way should be the sole choice of one member of that party, in a consensual circumstance of course.

That quote is ambiguous above, in so much as, in reference to those of a so called higher "moral" standard making decisions on a massive scale I agree with what you say - but there are also going to be many cases of women whom abort regardless of a mans desires when a consensual act has taken place.

At that point, you move beyond freedom of choice and responsibility, and into callousness.
Click to expand...

I assume you mean the man should be given a right to consult? I'll agree on that point but ultimately it is the woman's choice to keep the child and she shouldn't be forced by the man to carry it for whatever reason he puts out there. She is not being callous or irresponsible.
 
I disagree, if you get into the situation under normal circumstances, there is a life that is to be considered.

A very real life. There are many situations which are far from ideal, that should be treated with dignity, respect, care and understanding.

However, when you are in normal circumstances, I do not believe a woman should have the ability to completely circumvent a partner!

Father's rights, are simply not strong enough in this Country. If you engage, and you conceive, under consensual circumstances I do not believe that gives one person the right to make that decision.

If a man were in this situation, and he had that ultimate control, we would be having the total opposite debate here! Guaranteed.

EDIT:

When I say "equal rights" for both sexes, that is precisely what I mean!
 
TheMan said:
AshleeKel said:
But the man doesn't carry the child. The woman does. Thus your point is invalid.
Click to expand...

I find that to be of the highest order of ignorance.

If a consensual act has occurred that has resulted in a "normal" circumstance, there is no way a woman should have free reign to make that decision.

That's an abomination, as much so as taking the choice away for those in unideal and difficult circumstances. Both ends of that scale are abhorrent to me.

My opinions of course.

EDIT: I add, I respect everyone's views on this a very complex subject.
Click to expand...

But you really seem to believe that when it comes to pregnancy, the mother and the father are on the same footing. That's not the case.

You'd have a point if we were seahorses, and you could also carry a child. But when it's the women's body, she has 100% of the say. Even if the father really wants to be daddy, it's not his body that goes through all the changes that pregnancy brings. He's not the one who is at risk of complications, some of which cold be fatal. Heck, if he decides he no longer wants to be a dad, he can just run away at any time, leaving the mother to raise the child by herself. Should the woman decide to get an abortion she has to actually go through the physical process which gets more unpleasant the further along she is, going into a clinic which may or may not have have "pro-lifers" yelling and screaming at her as she goes in.

Men don't have to go through any of that. Hence, it's 100% up to the woman. Her body, her choice.
 
I can't offer a view on whether it is right or wrong generally, but I do know abortion is an abused facility in deprived areas of this country.


-Sent from a mobile phone-
 
We are not going to agree on this.

I disgree with absent Fathers, irresponsible mothers, whatever - there is no justification for any of it.

This is nonsense though about the women/kid thing.

Equal rights is precisely that, equal! A child is a partnership, the father and mother should honour their actions.

I know many women who disagree with your views. I share those whom like to see equality across the board. This does not happen in conception, or indeed parenthood and it is just plain wrong.

This is life, not a microwave oven.

You are talking of absolute control, and in "normal" circumstances to which I am referring, that is not how nature built us to be. It is meant to be a partnership, it is natural, argue feminism as much as you like - but when it begins to circumvent equality in the opposite direction, you are no better in my opinion than chauvinistic men, and it renders your cause moot.
 
Abortion isn't a controversial issue in the UK because thankfully, the vast majority of our population don't hate women. It was legalised in 1967 and will stay that way, because there is overwhelming (and ever growing) support for a woman's right to choose. Misogynistic and old-fashioned opinions (like BigT's) from men who think they have a right to dictate what women do with their bodies are thankfully dying out.

Prohibition of abortion is about as likely to return as similarly barbaric legislation that was overturned in the 1960s, such as the criminalisation of gay sex and the death penalty.
 
Men definitely have some kind of influence, obviously far more likely if the man and woman are in a loving relationship, but technically the final decision IS down to the woman. It'd be horribly unfair if the woman took advantage of that without good reason though.
 
NastyPasty said:
^ I guess so, Meat Pie.

But stating that it's just a preparation for life; when does life begin then? There has to be a point where life begins. This is what confuses me most.
Click to expand...

The accepted results as from Neonatal medical science suggest that foetuses cannot experience pain or any other sensory feelings for that matter for up to 24 weeks, and that for me at least is what makes it a collection of cells that cannot think or be at all aware of it's self. If it cannot feel, then it is no different from a plant.

TheMan - What is your definition of conciousness? A conciousness must be aware of itself and if you are unable to feel, to emote, or experience anything through senses, then do you have conciousness? I would argue not. To have conciousness, something must be able to be aware of itself, and to be aware of itself it must be about to sense itself and produce feelings. If you do not have that, then I find it hard to call something concious.

As for the matter of men having a say over abortion... The father should always be consulted as a matter of decency, but no man should be able to force a woman to accept a baby she doesn't want to have. Admittedly it would be a tragic event that a woman should decide to abort a foetus that the father wanted to keep, but ultimately it must be her right to choose what happens in her body.
 
I'm a little away from your opinion Meat, but not too far.

I would suggest good counseling facilities, an emphasis on discussion and communication, a support structure and sense of community would assist and no doubt change many decisions.

As for consciousness, it is intangible in so many respects. There is as of yet no way to measure this, the term is measured purely biologically - yet consciousness is recognised but not understood or identified.

Understanding the localisation of consciousness would help people make better decisions. I don't blame or judge those who make their decisions. I'd just like there to be better availability of facilities to support those going through it.

I understand both sides of the argument, I happen to not agree with either of the extremes. Total choice, or no choice.
 
Yeah its right. I would live to allow someone to have the choice and not have anyone else's morals choose for them.


In an extreme point of view its almost like vegetarians campaigning to make eating meat illegal.

If you have morals pointing one way, that's fine, but do not force them upon others who do not believe in them potentially ruining their lives.

Call it murder as much as you want, that's your opinion, your morals. Let's keep it that way.

Sent from my phone using Tapatalk, please excuse any ridiculous mistakes!
 
I horrified to admit this ( :p ), but I agree with TheMan and, kinda, Meat Pie, regarding consulting men.

If a couple have made a joint decision to attempt to conceive a baby then it should equally be a joint decision to abort it. The man would suffer some form emotional distress as a result of any termination, granted probably not as much as the woman, but a not insignificant amount nonetheless.

Of course it's different if it's not planned or any of the other scenarios mentioned in the topic, in which case the woman should have every right to do as they wish.

I am concerned about frivolous abortions as a solution to irresponsible behaviour.

I am also concerned about the medical definition of "consciousness" and think this issue would become much less volatile once this definition has been codified and agreed. If some babies are born and survive at 22 weeks, is that the point of consciousness? Maybe it's a week before, maybe it's 2 weeks before?
 
Dar said:
If a couple have made a joint decision to attempt to conceive a baby then it should equally be a joint decision to abort it. The man would suffer some form emotional distress as a result of any termination, granted probably not as much as the woman, but a not insignificant amount nonetheless.
Click to expand...

This is the only way I can agree with men having the equal rights as women in this situation because of the shared responsibilities, providing that the consequences have been thought through carefully such as the time, the home and the money that the child will need in life.
 
Babies grow in and are born from a woman's body.

There's no way for it to be possible for a man to have equal say in the abortion process as the woman. It'd be nice, but it's simply completely unrealistic due to the biological reality of the situation. There's no way it can ever realistically happen.

Of course, the flip-side of men having less of a choice over the abortion decision is the fact that they don't have to carry a tiny person around inside of them (+ morning sickness) for 9 months when they want to have a child.
 
Maybe not equal rights, but I find the idea that a father-to-be should have no rights at all to be utterly abhorrent.
 
as I don't have the right equipment. I have not really thought about it, as I believe the system in the uk works fine. men should have input but is decided by the pregnant woman.
If we did not have it, then we would have a death from DIY abortions.

anyway lets throw another abortion idea into the mix.

Geoffrey Clark’s call for compulsory abortion for foetuses with Down’s syndrome or spina bifida.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-20773800

Personally I find this idea. gross, horrid, wrong. Its should be the down to the parents, with the guidance of Health care professional. and the whole idea starts a slippy slope, would it start extending to autistic spectrum, to dyslexics. or end up with the idea of the perfect human male and female?

At the end of the day it all about personal choice and control over your own body.


<Edit>
sam said:
What about all the times you've masturbated in your life?
You mass-murderer
Click to expand...
There is a monty phyon song about that.
 
John said:
Maybe not equal rights, but I find the idea that a father-to-be should have no rights at all to be utterly abhorrent.
Click to expand...

I see where you are coming from, but what do you have in mind? It's easy to say that father's should have rights in the abortion debate but it seem impossible to put into practice without infringing on the the right of women to decide over their bodies.

This is tricky and I'm not so optimistic that it can be legislated right. Maybe as part of pre-abortion counselling should encourage or even require that the woman try to contact the father? Even that has real problems. I'm open to hear ideas though, as it is is unfair for the men involved but I have yet to hear an answer that would maker it fairer without it impacting on women's rights.
 
I don't really have any clear way forward, but I'm only really thinking of situations arising within committed relationships. If a guy fools around and gets a girl pregnant then I don't think he really has any rights at all over what she decides to do.
 
This is what I meant when I said about emotions getting involved, it confuses things that need to be clear-cut!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top