Abortion: Right or Wrong?

[BigT]

No I'm not a veggie but that's completely different argument.
Humans are a superior race to chickens, cows etc and therefore top of the food chain, when I see a chicken driving a car and a cow mending it I'll stop eating them!

I could also argue that having a child enhances a woman's life rather than killing it but I won't because end of the day it is her choice, and I except that.
Doesn't mean I agree with it though.

 

[Niques]

I'm not even going to read above this post, just for fear of being wound up by any views that I may not agree with. I'll post my view completely unaffected by anybody elses opinion first and, then debate after I've had my say. There's nothing worse than jumping in to a debate part way through and having your opinion skewed after reading someone elses post.

Anyway, I'm against abortion, it's essentially murder. If you can't be careful in the first place then that's your own fault, you shouldn't then abort a foetus that's already living inside of you. I don't buy all of the tripe about 'they can't feel pain until a certain stage', I still don't agree with it - terminating a life, is taking a life, regardless.

That said, I do accept the idea of abortion in certain situations i.e. if the pregnancy was as a result of rape or, if carrying the baby full-term would endanger the Mother's life. I still don't fully agree with it but, I can understand it. I can't and, will never, understand how anybody can abort a baby because it 'was a mistake'.

 

[Ellie]

Wow, this is heated, with lots of words that I don't understand.

Abortion should be allowed, to every woman - Just under certain circumstances. I absolutely HATE it when you hear of women who have an abortion because they didn't want to use contraceptive precautions. Those types of women should be faced with 'Use contraceptive next time or we will rip out your ovaries'.
But then you also get women where it genuinely was an accident, and those should be the women that get permission to be able to have an abortion. Especially in cases of rape, heck, if rape was the case then I personally think they should get VIP treatment and get to skip the queue. As if rape wasn't bad enough in the first place, being told your pregnant probably doesn't help AT ALL.

However, I completely believe that the father should have a say in the abortion process. Of course in cases like rape, they shouldn't. But the father should at least be told what is happening and if he wants to get involved (with stopping the abortion) then he can always have his voice heard.
If it were to happen within a loving couple though and the mother wasn't ready, but the father was, they should have spoken about it first, unless it was an accident then if the father refuses to listen, the woman should be allowed to have the abortion and then dump the guy and move on - especially if he were that controlling!

EDIT: Regardless, If a women doesn't want to get pregnant in the first place and neither partner has any contraceptive, then the woman is completely responsible for saying no as she will be the affected person if anything does happen.
It just shows how responsible some people are.

 

[Poisson]

I'm not even going to read above this post, just for fear of being wound up by any views that I may not agree with. I'll post my view completely unaffected by anybody elses opinion first and, then debate after I've had my say. There's nothing worse than jumping in to a debate part way through and having your opinion skewed after reading someone elses post.

I cannot begin to say how happy this paragraph makes me feel

That said, I do accept the idea of abortion in certain situations i.e. if the pregnancy was as a result of rape or, if carrying the baby full-term would endanger the Mother's life. I still don't fully agree with it but, I can understand it. I can't and, will never, understand how anybody can abort a baby because it 'was a mistake'.

What is you view if the condom split? If the baby couldn't be raised in a good manner due to various reasons (Financial etc) and the condom broke, would it be better to terminate the pregnancy then bring a child into a deprived life? Is this classed as a 'mistake' or are accidents different?

 

[BigT]

I'm not even going to read above this post, just for fear of being wound up by any views that I may not agree with. I'll post my view completely unaffected by anybody elses opinion first and, then debate after I've had my say. There's nothing worse than jumping in to a debate part way through and having your opinion skewed after reading someone elses post.

I cannot begin to say how happy this paragraph makes me feel

That said, I do accept the idea of abortion in certain situations i.e. if the pregnancy was as a result of rape or, if carrying the baby full-term would endanger the Mother's life. I still don't fully agree with it but, I can understand it. I can't and, will never, understand how anybody can abort a baby because it 'was a mistake'.

What is you view if the condom split? If the baby couldn't be raised in a good manner due to various reasons (Financial etc) and the condom broke, would it be better to terminate the pregnancy then bring a child into a deprived life? Is this classed as a 'mistake' or are accidents different?

You could give Elton John a buzz, he'd be happy to take it off your hands!
There are always alternatives to killing.

 

[Fredward]

No I'm not a veggie but that's completely different argument.
Humans are a superior race to chickens, cows etc and therefore top of the food chain, when I see a chicken driving a car and a cow mending it I'll stop eating them!

I disagree, we are not superior to anything, but that is a whole new argument.

Considering you have never seen a foetus driving a car, surely there intelligence is equal to that of the creatures you eat? Although they are more complicated then a bunch of cells, I'm pretty sure foetus are think similarly to these animals, they don't have as much of a complicated brain as a child. If you don't consider killing animals murder, with my logic I don't consider killing feotus' murder.

I could also argue that having a child enhances a woman's life rather than killing it but I won't because end of the day it is her choice, and I except that.
Doesn't mean I agree with it though.

That in my opinion is a pretty ignorant point of view, it will differ from person to person. I don't want a kid as of now, and while I'm not a woman it will not enhance my life, I also doubt it will enhance a woman's who has a similar mindset.

 

[delta79]

That said, I do accept the idea of abortion in certain situations i.e. if the pregnancy was as a result of rape or, if carrying the baby full-term would endanger the Mother's life. I still don't fully agree with it but, I can understand it. I can't and, will never, understand how anybody can abort a baby because it 'was a mistake'.

What is you view if the condom split? If the baby couldn't be raised in a good manner due to various reasons (Financial etc) and the condom broke, would it be better to terminate the pregnancy then bring a child into a deprived life? Is this classed as a 'mistake' or are accidents different?

There is the morning after pill for the problem of split condoms.

 

[GaryH]

Havent read the thread in full but just to throw in my 2p worth.

Essentially I am pro-abortion. If a woman doesnt want the baby, its her choice. Can you murder something that hasnt been born yet? Hmmm, the debate is still out on that one, but i'd rather a baby not be born at all if it wont be loved, cared for, or will end up being abused, or left in a box on a door step at the local hospital.

One thing that REALLY gets my back up however are these anti-abortion groups who say that if a woman has been raped that she must still have the baby if she gets pregnant as a result. I mean, who the hell are these morons to tell her what she must do. So lets get this right, the woman goes through the sheer hell of being raped, but then has 9 months then of pregnancy of the rapists baby, then must go through the pain to give birth to it, and then have the rapists baby to remind her of the sickening event every day for the rest of her life. Sorry, but these people are sick in the head.

Then there are those women who find out the baby they are carrying may have a genetic condition such as Down's Syndrome. They should also be given the choice of whether to termintate the pregnancy. A long time past ex girlfriend, her sister was born with Downs and her mum said that if she knew at the time she wouldnt of had it. Her mum's life has been essentially wiped out and she is a full time carer of a child who was deaf and dumb.

Banning abortion will not only result in adding a lot more unwanted, unloved babies to an already excess population across the globe but also will result in people going "underground" to have illegal operations resulting in the woman possibly dying from complications.

I dont think any of us, especially MEN are in any position to tell a women she cant have an abortion. It her body, its her future life, its her health, its her choice. End of.

 

[James]

That said, I do accept the idea of abortion in certain situations i.e. if the pregnancy was as a result of rape or, if carrying the baby full-term would endanger the Mother's life. I still don't fully agree with it but, I can understand it. I can't and, will never, understand how anybody can abort a baby because it 'was a mistake'.

What is you view if the condom split? If the baby couldn't be raised in a good manner due to various reasons (Financial etc) and the condom broke, would it be better to terminate the pregnancy then bring a child into a deprived life? Is this classed as a 'mistake' or are accidents different?

There is the morning after pill for the problem of split condoms.

You could argue that in some cases that if it was a drunken one night stand, they might wake up the next morning not knowing of a condom splitting the night before.

Not that I say that is right. But these things do happen.

---

It's nice to see more women have joined in with this discussion too, it was rather disconcerting seeing this topic being a male majority.

 

[Harv]

Just to repeat what James said, it's fantastic to see the women of TST fighting their corner, especially members like Rowe who have previously avoided debates at fear of being shunned. I'm still trying to remain neutral and listen to all points equally, but it's still great, regardless, to read intellectual debating from both sexes.

 

[Rowe]

Thank you NastyPasty, however I believe that all the women (Ashlee, Kelpie, Benedique, Elllie, Natalie) who have taken part in this discussion deserve commending for braving the topic.

I bowed out of the discussion a long time ago because the heat was seeping in thick and fast, the same points being argued again and again, but I am really proud that six of us have held our own fort on this issue.

 

[Scott]

Rowe, there is by no means some form of pro-male bias on this forum. In any thread, any person is welcome to join the discussion and debate. Whilst things do get heated at times, you shouldn't let this put you off joining in.

I appreciate that this topic may affect female members members more than male members but I don't think that it should be suggested that there is some kind of huge gender divide on the forum.

As always, if you feel like there is a major issue with gender disparity feel free to contact a member of the team. However, I genuinely believe that this forum is a welcoming place for everyone and people are encouraged to join in threads no matter whether they are a guy or a girl.

(Not sure how eloquently I put this point across as I'm on my phone ><)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[Jem8472]

Rowe you are not the only one that feels like that. For a long time I have said that I don't bother getting involved with most threads on the forum because of the reaction of other members. Its not worth the hassle, you normally just get shouted down if you don't agree with their well rounded views of the universe. :

Its a shame because there are some good people on the forum who can debate well and I have often had good discussions in chat away from the forum and word twisting and assuming of peoples posts.

This is a mainly male forum so on any topic you are going to get more male view points.

 

[John]

I can only echo the above sentiments, debates on here are often very aggressive and personal, but I don't believe there is any discrimination based on gender.

 

[BigT]

I'd just like to say I welcome the ladies getting involved and I wouldn't shoot you down just for the sake of doing so.
Don't worry about saying something silly either as I'm also good at that, but just don't take what is replyed to heart as I don't and you'll be fine, just get stuck in.
Anyway I think most of the negative comments are mainly aimed at me because of disagreements in past debates etc.
The reason I didn't reply to Natalie was by the sexist nature of the comments she was just looking for an argument and not to really add anything.

Anyway back to the topic, I find it interesting that in the news today there is a mother fighting to stop her child being treated for cancer and it's upto the courts to decide what is best for the child, but yet a mother can decide to effectively kill there child before its even born no questions asked.

I think the point about women who have been raped to be very valid, but why are women who have gone through that awful event not offered the morning after pill as standard.

 

[Fredward]

I think if you've just been raped the last thing you think is... Oh no, better hope I'm not pregnant! I'm pretty sure its shock fear disgust ext.

I still consider an animal, if its ok to kill animals for sport or food, who are capable of happy lives, feel severe pain, why can't we kill fetus' which I don't believe is developed enough to feel the same things as these animals. To save a girl from doing something she is not happy or comfortable with, which has the potential of ruining her life.

Drugs, pills, condoms ext. Are not fool proof, mistakes and accidents happen.

Sent from my phone using Tapatalk, please excuse any ridiculous mistakes!

 

[Kaycee]

I think this is a great debate for the most part - it's just a little ridiculous to hysterically suggest that men can't have their say on the issue, as it's womens' issue. When a woman gets pregnant, GENERALLY it also implicates the father, who likely will feel some emotional attachment to the growing life inside the woman. When a woman haves an abortion against the wishes of the father, that can be devastating. BigT, I do applaud you for being able to support your partner in that situation..

Having said that, while I feel the father needs to be taken into account (if, indeed, he is still around - which in a lot of cases with abortion, he's not - or isn't likely to stick around the next tough few years), it ultimately has to be the decision of the woman. It is her body, the idea of me being in a situation where I want an abortion, but my partner doesn't, actually making me feel obliged to undergo many months of discomfort, changing body, resulting in ultimately being responsible for a little person I undoubtedly will love, but who will be tethered to me for many years and all the demands that come with it - just doesn't seem right to me.
Possibly if life hadn't demonstrated how relatively easy men find it to leave their child in the primary care of the mother and become a part-time - or even absent - father (I say relatively, because obviously it's never going to be an easy decision to make). Women mostly become mothers by default, it's a sad way of society these days, that men seem to exercise a lot more choice over their fatherly involvement. A child is for life with most mothers (as it would be for me) - but there are far more instances of single mothers than there are of single fathers. Therefore, I would have the final say over whether or not I had an abortion. It'd be all very well for a man to convince me to keep a child, only for him to scarper a few years down the line.

Might be a pessimistic viewpoint, but unfortunately it's commonplace.

I'd say abortion is a very private matter, and I am firmly pro-choice. I've fortunately never been in the position where I've had to make that choice, but I will say I've been in situations in my life where I knew a termination would be something I would strongly consider - and yes, sometimes for financial reasons! If I can barely take care of myself, how can I expect to take care of a tiny dependant? Now, at 26, it seems the list of reasons that 'justify' exercising that choice become smaller and smaller, and if I decided at any point to have a termination from now - I would most likely tell very, very few people about it.

I do believe until a foetus is a viable human being, it's not murder. I would support a slight lowering of the 24 week limit, if it de-blurred that line a little more!

It's important to me to be a great mother when the time comes. I would never want to begrudgingly have a baby because I felt forced to, coerced or judged. It's a MAJOR life decision and would change my life irreversibly. Not to bring personal issues into this too much, but as a child, I grew up feeling like I was regretted, that I was a stain on my mother's life, her life had been stunted and many opportunities missed because I needed looking after. I would never want to pass any feeling like that down to my own children, and if I brought a child into the world I wasn't sure I wanted, who knows how I'd be feeling when the child is a not-so-cute 5 year old throwing tantrums in supermarket aisles.

I don't feel bringing a life into the world is a decision taken as seriously as it should be by a lot of mothers. Therefore, while I think contraception is the responsibility of both sexual partners, a savvy woman would know that it will be HER life that changes irrevocably if she falls pregnant. Men can behave more irresponsibily because they won't be forced to step up to the mark if they don't want to - women don't have that luxury, so a wise woman will never leave the responsibility to fall onto an irresponsible man. It's self-preservation! It's sad, but unfortunately the way of the world. A couple of months ago, I had a debate with a pro-lifer protesting outside an abortion clinic I walk past most days. My main issue with him was his tactics. Here was a man, standing outside a clinic, intimidating vulnerable women about to make the hardest decision of their life. Unfortunately for him, until he walks a few miles with a uterus of his own, he should not be trying to take the moral high ground in such a way.

 

[Tom]

In general I think this topic has been discussed in a professional and polite manner. There has been just a small spattering of swipes and melodramatics.

People shouldn't shy away from this topic and anyone that finds it heated or intimidating should check some of the others. Let's not mislabel passion and determination as misogyny and attacks.

 

[Joelio]

Or if a Mother does go through the process of having a child that she then has no desire to care for (situational and circumstantional desires, career path, financial viability etc.), or has to give up due to debilitating mental issues, there's always adoption....

In short I'm all for pro-choice., as is my Sister and there's a saddening tale to backup that claim (of which no abortions took place but the pressure was on her).

 

[BigT]

Fred I'll happily debate the ins and out of food production with you if you want in a separate debate.
As this is an area I'm very involved in work wise I can put a few myths to bed that are peddled by the veggies, but not here.

Kaysee, very good points and very well put. I would never force a women to do anything she doesn't want and that's why ultimately it was her decision even if I didn't agree. What I didn't say because I didn't think it was right is how she now feels about it.
She now regrets the decision and has had counselling in the past about it and I feel like I've let her down by not been able to offer the right support.

I'm not one of these pro live lunatics that you talk about hanging around outside clinics but words from the well known prof. Robert Winson have always stuck with me.
He said "to get pregnant is a little miracle, to stay pregnant is a miracle, every feutus is very special."
I know every circumstance is different but I don't think I need to say any more really.