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B&M 4D Rumours

It was always strongly rumoured that the B&M 4D is what SW7 was going to be but it wasn't ready, hence the rushed nature of the Gerst. Question is will B&M now launch it at another park or wait for SW8?
 
Dave said:
It was always strongly rumoured that the B&M 4D is what SW7 was going to be but it wasn't ready, hence the rushed nature of the Gerst. Question is will B&M now launch it at another park or wait for SW8?

Personally I'd rather them install it somewhere else first, perfect it and then put it in as SW8 or 9. B&M need to move their testing ground elsewhere, Alton shouldn't be a prototype park for their new designs.
 
The Psychoaster said:
Dave said:
It was always strongly rumoured that the B&M 4D is what SW7 was going to be but it wasn't ready, hence the rushed nature of the Gerst. Question is will B&M now launch it at another park or wait for SW8?

Personally I'd rather them install it somewhere else first, perfect it and then put it in as SW8 or 9. B&M need to move their testing ground elsewhere, Alton shouldn't be a prototype park for their new designs.

As both nemesis and oblivion were such big mistakes!
 
willb said:
The Psychoaster said:
Dave said:
It was always strongly rumoured that the B&M 4D is what SW7 was going to be but it wasn't ready, hence the rushed nature of the Gerst. Question is will B&M now launch it at another park or wait for SW8?

Personally I'd rather them install it somewhere else first, perfect it and then put it in as SW8 or 9. B&M need to move their testing ground elsewhere, Alton shouldn't be a prototype park for their new designs.

As both nemesis and oblivion were such big mistakes!

Nemesis wasn't a prototype though...?

Just look at these differences;

Oblivion - Sheikra (imagine it with the hole still though as this was BG's doing (not to have one) due to budget)

Air - Manta (FL)

Yes, I would rather them 'prototype' it at another park. We would then get 'Europes first.'

Even if B&M's first 4D coaster was at Alton, it still wouldn't be a 'worlds first' would it. X2 & others already exist.
 
smudge said:
willb said:
The Psychoaster said:
Dave said:
It was always strongly rumoured that the B&M 4D is what SW7 was going to be but it wasn't ready, hence the rushed nature of the Gerst. Question is will B&M now launch it at another park or wait for SW8?

Personally I'd rather them install it somewhere else first, perfect it and then put it in as SW8 or 9. B&M need to move their testing ground elsewhere, Alton shouldn't be a prototype park for their new designs.

As both nemesis and oblivion were such big mistakes!

Nemesis wasn't a prototype though...?

Just look at these differences;

Oblivion - Sheikra (imagine it with the hole still though as this was BG's doing (not to have one) due to budget)

Air - Manta (FL)

Yes, I would rather them 'prototype' it at another park. We would then get 'Europes first.'

Even if B&M's first 4D coaster was at Alton, it still wouldn't be a 'worlds first' would it. X2 & others already exist.

Exactly. While Air is undoubtedly a solid coaster, it always leaves me severely underwhelmed - especially when I rode Manta and realised just how good a B&M flyer could be. It's a great point as well that a 4D for SW8 couldn't be marketed as a world's first either - because it isn't. Unless they want to mention the manufacturer in the marketing spiel?

I'd much rather have a reliable and well tested coaster than another first from B&M - even if it means it isn't the first installation. I thought that's what everyone wanted anyway?
 
To be honest, I dont really mind, 1st or not a 1st as long as we receive a good solid coaster that lives up the sW tag.
 
JB1985 said:
To be honest, I dont really mind, 1st or not a 1st as long as we receive a good solid coaster that lives up the sW tag.
Really good point they look a really good ride and if towers get one that's fantastic
 
Maybe it's just me, but I miss the days when Alton was the B&M show ground for models. For any park to have a strong reputation like that with any company shows a good, solid park in my opinion, and for the company to be B&M is just great. It shows a quality attraction, with innovative attractions and big ideas.

Nemesis obviously wasn't the first Inverted coaster, but if you ask me it was the first to really push the boundaries, and completely redefine what the concept meant. No longer was it just a gimmick by hanging people under the track. Suddenly there was purpose to it. The leg choppers, the landscaping, the near misses. Everything which makes Nemesis so great. No other B&M Invert had done this really. But after Nemesis, a few others attempted. The ride almost became a trend setter, showing that you could do something different with the idea.

Oblivion is still considered to be one of the best examples of the Dive Machine out there. It's simple, to the point, and doesn't mess around. It does exactly what the ride was meant to do, which was create a coaster with a vertical drop. No frills. Just the goal, and I think most would agree it does that excellently. Sure, it's not long and lacks inversions but does the Dive Machine need that? Is that what it was conceived to do? It serves its purpose and makes a bold statement. Is there any other Dive Machine which offers an experience similar to Oblivion? (And don't say it's clone, Diving Machine G5, as though the same, I doubt that is as effective without the hole and mystery created by the theme :p )

Air is a brilliant example of what a coaster can be made to do when combined with technology. It really pushed the boundaries, and was a breakthrough design. It had its teething problems, as did Oblivion, but since then B&M have perfected the design, and apparently have offered to upgrade Air for Towers. Sure, it may not be the most thrilling flyer out there, or the fastest or the tallest, but the thing is it isn't meant to be. I'm sure if Towers could have got planning permission and wanted to they could have easily built something to rival Manta. But that wasn't what they wanted, and it wasn't what the ride is about.

Air, like Nemesis, is meant to go beyond a gimmick. It takes what other rides of its kind use as just a new trick and makes it the star of the show. The ride was designed and created to be a simulation of flight. On that basis it achieves it better than any other flyer I'd say. Just because the concept isn't in the same field as sister attractions, does that make it a bad ride?

B&M prototypes are generally good, solid attractions. Air is a bit of a black sheep with its issues really. At the same time though, when you're doing something that complex can you blame it? B&M have since rectified the problems, and if Towers give them the go ahead and pay the price it can be upgraded to be just as reliable and fast as the other examples around the world. Look at the other B&M prototypes out there though. Raptor for example. That gets a fair amount of praise, and that isn't exactly a simple, tame layout as many seem to be implying prototypes are (Seemingly based on Air alone). If Towers want it, and it is within the realms of reason, B&M can generally deliver it.

The prototype doesn't have to be some simple little coaster. It can be whatever they want it to be. I'm sure the first Mega Coaster from B&M wasn't a tiny little ride (Apollo's Chariot, followed by Raging Bull a few months later if you're wondering :p ). B&M's first Sitting Coaster was Kumba! I think that proves that they aren't afraid to throw big ideas out there in the first place.

If Towers' brief doesn't ask for a big, thrilling, unique coaster that will stand the test of time they won't get one. Simple. If they do however, they can create a truly amazing new ride, which becomes the envy of all other parks, and gains international recognition.

I would have no issue whatsoever with Towers having the B&M 4D prototype at the park. If somewhere else builds one first then so be it, that's fine. But it doesn't mean that we will get a better ride as a result. More reliable, less teething troubles, and a refined idea perhaps. But not a better coaster.
 
Ian said:
Maybe it's just me, but I miss the days when Alton was the B&M show ground for models. For any park to have a strong reputation like that with any company shows a good, solid park in my opinion, and for the company to be B&M is just great. It shows a quality attraction, with innovative attractions and big ideas.

Can I just say, it's not the park that has that connection with B&M. It's John Wardley.
 
Jared said:
Ian said:
Maybe it's just me, but I miss the days when Alton was the B&M show ground for models. For any park to have a strong reputation like that with any company shows a good, solid park in my opinion, and for the company to be B&M is just great. It shows a quality attraction, with innovative attractions and big ideas.

Can I just say, it's not the park that has that connection with B&M. It's John Wardley.

But seen as John Wardley was a director of Tussauds and only Towers at that time could accommodate a B&M in Tussauds UK portfolio it's not a huge stretch to say Towers was connected to B&M
 
Dave said:
Jared said:
Ian said:
Maybe it's just me, but I miss the days when Alton was the B&M show ground for models. For any park to have a strong reputation like that with any company shows a good, solid park in my opinion, and for the company to be B&M is just great. It shows a quality attraction, with innovative attractions and big ideas.

Can I just say, it's not the park that has that connection with B&M. It's John Wardley.

But seen as John Wardley was a director of Tussauds and only Towers at that time could accommodate a B&M in Tussauds UK portfolio it's not a huge stretch to say Towers was connected to B&M

Dave's pretty much summed up my point. But at the same time B&M would have seen at least something in the park. I mean, I can't imagine they would just let their new prototypes and concepts go to anywhere. They could have easily said they weren't willing to take on the work Towers wanted, and gone to Six Flags or someone.

Companies are within their right to turn down jobs if they want. Apparently a member of Mack staff has said they would prefer Drayton didn't get one of their rides when they were asked. B&M could have easily done the same with Towers if they hadn't seen something special. Wardley did have a big part to play in bringing B&M to Towers, but the company could have still told him no if they didn't think the park had something about it.

If there wasn't something B&M saw in the park aside from Wardley I doubt they would have gone on to install two more breakthrough attractions there, regardless of his involvement. I guess it's almost fair to say Wardley was instrumental in bringing them in, but B&M soon came to see why the park was right.
 
Ian said:
I would have no issue whatsoever with Towers having the B&M 4D prototype at the park. If somewhere else builds one first then so be it, that's fine. But it doesn't mean that we will get a better ride as a result. More reliable, less teething troubles, and a refined idea perhaps. But not a better coaster.

More reliable, less teething troubles and a more refined idea is exactly what you want! Why clamour to get the first of something when inevitably subsequent installations will always overshadow it because they are inherently more perfect. It would have been like buying an iPhone 4S a month before the iPhone 5 came out. There's nothing wrong with it, but it always be lagging just that bit behind its successor in terms of how good it is.

As well as that, installing a 4D somewhere else first will almost definitely influence the initial designs for the eventual version at Alton. The first version might be tame, and they might realise that they can go that bit further and design something a little faster, a little more intense. That's what they did with Nemesis, and I hope that's what they do in this case.
 
But see aside from the possible benefits in terms of operation I don't see any real gain with it. Even so, if B&M were to make it any better if there where issues (Which there aren't bound to be) they would more than likely offer Towers an upgrade to theirs, as is the case with Air.

I don't think Towers really needs any influence. I mean, look at Nemmy. Not the first invert, but the first one to be built in the way it is, with the landscaping and the new take on the idea. That was done without any real design influence, as nothing like it existed, and it's turned out brilliant. In fact, the majority would probably say they got the design so perfect that it's still relatively unmatched in its league.

Oblivion was the first Dive Machine, and it's still very highly regarded. They didn't really have much pre-existing design inspiration for that either. These two rides were made more from visions than using existing inspiration. It turned out well then, and I'm sure Towers could do it again.

B&M generally don't put a ride into production until they are sure it's perfect. That's no doubt why it took them so long to make the Wing Rider after Intamin tried, and why the 4D still isn't here after Arrow did it years ago. For that reason problems with them are rare. They do happen though, but they could to any company and any ride really. Oblivion had some issues when it opened with the dual shuttle system, but they went back and fixed it and today it's fine. As I said earlier, Air is the black sheep, but the more you put into the ride the more you have to go wrong. B&M have solved most of the issues that have plauged Air, and should Towers ever decide they want to completely fix them B&M can do it. They wouldn't just turn around and say "sorry, you're stuck with it" :p

The Wing Rider from them has had next to no issues from what I've seen. Nothing beyond the usual opening day jitters. Here they are more than likely going to use that proven technology, and add new things to it. This means that, unlike Air, they aren't starting from scratch. They have a solid starting point to go from, and the time and resources saved on things like this will all be poured back into the new designs and components. If anything doesn't turn out right then they will try and fix it. That's just how they are. So either way, as long as Towers would let them work it'd probably be fine in the end. I don't think they'd be able to get this wrong on the scale of Air. If they did then I'd be very worried about B&M.

Assuming Towers have the creative people onboard, and the right vision to ask B&M to create I see no problem with it. If they don't ask for the right thing they won't get it. Some say it's what happened this season with Sub-Terra. Towers didn't make it clear to Studios what they wanted, and surprise surprise the result wasn't what they wanted either :p At the end of the day, I'd sooner Towers take on the concept as a worlds first with some minor glitches but an amazing layout and experience, than wait for it to be perfect and produce something not quite as good and then have no marketing backbone and pull for it.
 
Ian said:
I don't think Towers really needs any influence. I mean, look at Nemmy. Not the first invert, but the first one to be built in the way it is, with the landscaping and the new take on the idea. That was done without any real design influence, as nothing like it existed, and it's turned out brilliant. In fact, the majority would probably say they got the design so perfect that it's still relatively unmatched in its league.

Oblivion was the first Dive Machine, and it's still very highly regarded. They didn't really have much pre-existing design inspiration for that either. These two rides were made more from visions than using existing inspiration. It turned out well then, and I'm sure Towers could do it again.

Who's to say though that B&M didn't take all of their studies of the first five inverts installed before Nemesis and applied it to the design? I very much doubt that Nemesis would have been as good as it is without them drawing from some prior experience - even with computer simulations etc. In fact, I'm almost sure that the Batman rides had some influence on Nemesis - after all, they're relatively compact, very intense and were the flagship for their respective parks.

As for Oblivion, I know it's all about the drop and everything - but even that has its problems. B&M hadn't developed the spring loaded wheelbearings so it couldn't have a completely 90 degree drop as all of the other Dive Machines bar G5 do.

Ian said:
The Wing Rider from them has had next to no issues from what I've seen. Nothing beyond the usual opening day jitters. Here they are more than likely going to use that proven technology, and add new things to it. This means that, unlike Air, they aren't starting from scratch. They have a solid starting point to go from, and the time and resources saved on things like this will all be poured back into the new designs and components.

I think you're treating the matter with considerable levity to be honest. To say that there is little to go wrong in taking a Wing Rider and making it a 4D coaster is a bit optimistic. 4D coasters are completely different, the technology is much more complicated and it's in general a far more sophisticated ride. All of the tech in the trains, the motors and gears and everything are very similar in concept to the kind of thing they had to employ in Air with the retracting seats. It's all stuff that they won't have tested before and won't know how it will work until the prototype.

What I want isn't the credit of a world's/Europe's first B&M but a truly world class coaster that you can, like Nemesis, say is the very best that they could come up with. Can you honestly say that about Air?
 
I just don't think a 4D is B&M's style. They seem far to insane. B&M coasters are all about control, not being out of it.
 
Joseph points at Nemesis.... But yeah a B&M 4D would just be weird. I don't understand the obsession of having one. And now that S&S are manufacturing there new 4D coaster, I don't see the point.
 
Computers and tech aren't used much on 4D coasters though. They use pivots and mechanical arms on the Arrow and S&S ones I believe. The reason is because computers and motors can fail. Imagine the seat turning motor stops mid-ride and halts the seat in one position. You've completely altered the forces of the ride, and it could be very bad for the riders. Instead they have a mechanical system. It's much safer. In a powercut or something it will still work. You could push an S&S one around the track without any power and it would still turn as it should.

The problem is Arrow patented the whole idea for their design, and S&S now own most of their stuff. This means B&M need to find another way to do it. But I should think they know the problem with an electrical solution. It's the same reason Air is all done using a mechanical system for tilting and deadbolting the craft into position. That way the ride could only drop out of position from a serious mechanical failure which is next to impossible.

They already know how the forces work with riders on the side, and the best way to ensure there's a smooth ride and train design. If B&M are doing a winged 4D ride like Arrow or S&S they will have saved themselves a lot of time by already having the wing rider. They can call upon features and designs in this to save time and resources. They won't be redesigning. More adapting. That's the way I see it anyway.

My whole point is though that just because we don't get the first doesn't mean it will be better overall. They could easily make a prototype with brilliant elements and quality. It just needs to be what they want. Air may not be to everyone's taste, but it does what it was meant to well. Oblivion is much more popular with people, and that two does it brilliantly. I don't believe that those 2 degrees makes that much difference. Most people would never even know or notice unless they were told. To them it's still a vertical drop.

I just don't see why if we get the prototype it will be an inferior ride compared to others, that's all. It just seems a lot of this is being based off Air and Th13teen (And let's not go into Th13teen. Between them Intamin and Towers really ballsed that one up :p ). But there have been plenty of brilliant prototypes. If we want to say Nemesis took most of its inspiration from Batman as you say then surely that makes Batman a good prototype? People who have ridden the clone have said how great they are.

Anyway, I've wandered off topic enough with company operations and other concepts. Back to the 4D :p
 
Ian said:
I just don't see why if we get the prototype it will be an inferior ride compared to others, that's all. It just seems a lot of this is being based off Air and Th13teen (And let's not go into Th13teen. Between them Intamin and Towers really ballsed that one up :p ).

Harbouring uncertainties about prototypes based on the failures of HALF the SW's installed in the past 18 years is hardly invalid is it? It's not great that 50% of the Secret Weapons so far have had critical receptions due to various flaws and uninteresting layouts - hallmarks of prototypes.

Ian said:
But there have been plenty of brilliant prototypes. If we want to say Nemesis took most of its inspiration from Batman as you say then surely that makes Batman a good prototype? People who have ridden the clone have said how great they are.

The Batman rides are undoubtedly great coasters, but it's inconsequential. I've never ridden them myself but I would imagine that most enthusiasts who have would agree that they aren't as good as Nemesis. Which came after them. Which is the case with most initial coaster designs - they are often superseded very soon after their various first versions by more refined layouts.
 
DiogoJ42 said:
I just don't think a 4D is B&M's style. They seem far to insane. B&M coasters are all about control, not being out of it.

Perhaps that's why they are (allegedly) developing a 4D ride? It is something very out the ordinary for B&M, and given their experience and quality in the industry surely if a 4D is in the works B&M would create the best of the best you can get.

Many enthusiasts have criticized B&M for staying the same for so long now, not developing anything different and staying in their comfort zone. A 4D ride would bring them back to the days of creating rides like Air and Oblivion, creating something out of this world. I certainly would welcome B&M to go back to the workings of what made them stand out from the crowd at the start.
 
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