• ā„¹ļø Heads up...

    This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks.

Blackpool Pleasure Beach: 2024 Discussion

Status
This topic has been locked. No further replies can be posted.
Skyscraper said:
Just noticed that BPB claim Big One's top speed to be 85mph on its web page, when we all know it's 74mph as listed on the RCDB. Whether they like it or not, Hyperia is the new tallest AND fastest coaster in the UK.

Edit: they're so brazenly confident they've put it on the new merch šŸ˜‚

D3A46C09-16DB-4510-8847-CCE1D2772668.jpg

Source
Click to expand...
Unless I'm very much mistaken, the current average speed of a train on Hyperia is 0 mph.

Hyperia is the tallest, but it's not the fastest... Yet.
 
All of the friends and family I've ridden Icon with have loved it. I don't think any found it disappointing, and for nearly every single one, it was their favourite ride at the park. And until they were literally in it's shadow, not one knew it existed.

Pleasure Beach struggles with it's image, for many people, it isn't somewhere you often think "what's new there?", you don't hear people say "when I last went to Pleasure Beach, x, y or z had just opened" - which you always hear about most other parks in the country. Think about it, people will never tell you their last visit to Alton Towers was in 2005, they'll say "Rita was new when I last went"...and an enthusiast friend would say "ah, 2005 then"

I'd take a guess that unless someone was talking about 1994, a new rollercoaster isn't a milestone they'd use to talk about their last Pleasure Beach visit. It isn't known for the latest, greatest new attractions.

People weren't expecting Icon. Pleasure Beach didn't tell them it was there. Obviously that isn't going to lead to an increase in attendance.
 
Thereā€™s always a cycle of the park seeming to go through bad patches.

It does however feel slightly different recently. There are more and more rides closing, shuttered outlets, less events, shorter opening hours and just a general consensus that there are real problems. With that as a backdrop, building a new tallest coaster seems unlikely. Rumours seem more to do with its title just being taken away.

Then again, this is Blackpool, so attempting to apply any logic to assess a likely outcome is pretty pointless.
 
Skyscraper said:
Just noticed that BPB claim Big One's top speed to be 85mph on its web page, when we all know it's 74mph as listed on the RCDB. Whether they like it or not, Hyperia is the new tallest AND fastest coaster in the UK.

Edit: they're so brazenly confident they've put it on the new merch šŸ˜‚

D3A46C09-16DB-4510-8847-CCE1D2772668.jpg

Source
Click to expand...
They have been claiming 85mph (occasionally 87mph) since the 90s, along with the 235 feet claim. so nothing new there, and that t-shirt design was new either 2023 or 2022 (I bought it either late 2022 or early 2023)
 
Katy said:
They have been claiming 85mph (occasionally 87mph) since the 90s, along with the 235 feet claim. so nothing new there, and that t-shirt design was new either 2023 or 2022 (I bought it either late 2022 or early 2023)
Click to expand...
That is one u g l y piece of merch.

Quoted the wrong person, sorry haha.
 
Dipper_Dave said:
Iā€™m surprised they donā€™t try and get away with just calling it 100.

I must say the ā€˜More to experienceā€™ signs around Blackpool are laughable given that there is actually less to experience in the seaside amusement park than there has been for some time.
Click to expand...
They should just do what Towers done with Rita - use km/ph and not actualy tell people it was km/ph.

So they could just say: Top speed: 137 šŸ¤£
 
I think there is many interesting and valid points above ^ But I have a strong feeling Mandy just claimed ā€œnew replacement ride in the worksā€ to keep everyone sweet and optimistic for now? I honestly feel they havenā€™t planned anything at this stage for the vacant site, I mean we all know what happened to Valhallaā€¦

However it is slightly worrying there has been several removals in the last few years, no growth and appears a lot of rides on there way out.
 
Last edited:
Frankly BPB doesn't have the money to do anything major. They haven't made any really decent money for years. Unless they get some outside investment and convince them that the return will be good, BPB will continue on its current path, just living on past glories and one day just shutting for good.

As of their last accounts, they are literally in their overdraft.
 
equinoxmist said:
Frankly BPB doesn't have the money to do anything major. They haven't made any really decent money for years.
Click to expand...
I would like to know your source for this.

I ask because the group accounts show that they are profitable. Icon was built through borrowing which is being repaid. So the group accounts are positive even after repayments. If they were to build something 'major', this would be done through borrowing again (this is their business model, similar to many major companies). As long as their bank is happy with the P/L and the security they will get the money. Absolutely nothing in their accounts suggests that this would be unsuccessful.

Everyone always going on about the 'financial issues' PB have with no sources. The park accounts have never looked great, but the group accounts always seem robust. I'm not saying that the park shouldn't be doing better financially (it should), but even with the mis-management of Mandy the place is financially fine (at the moment).

Being in debt is actually (strangely) sometimes a good thing. No profit = less tax. Therefore the high salaries the board take, and the money being plowed into track replacement etc. is actually a prudent financial strategy.
 
The sources are in the accounts, all published. The fact is, they don't have the money. The borrowing levels are pretty low, but any lender is going to be looking at the trends of the park in the past few years.... and its all downwards.

They would have to offer up some assets, most of which is declining in value pretty quickly. Combined with seemingly poor reliability on major rides, the money pit that is Valhalla, the park has huge problems.

I think our point of disagreement is the willingness for lenders to lend. You think they will get it easily, I am not so sure. Worth nothing the economic forecast for the next couple of years is rough, with many fixed mortgage deals due to expire this year, people will have less money going forwards. Also borrowing costs have increased substantially since they borrowed for icon.
 
equinoxmist said:
The sources are in the accounts, all published. The fact is, they don't have the money. The borrowing levels are pretty low, but any lender is going to be looking at the trends of the park in the past few years.... and its all downwards.

They would have to offer up some assets, most of which is declining in value pretty quickly. Combined with seemingly poor reliability on major rides, the money pit that is Valhalla, the park has huge problems.

I think our point of disagreement is the willingness for lenders to lend. You think they will get it easily, I am not so sure. Worth nothing the economic forecast for the next couple of years is rough, with many fixed mortgage deals due to expire this year, people will have less money going forwards. Also borrowing costs have increased substantially since they borrowed for icon.
Click to expand...
I think you are looking at the park accounts and not the group accounts - am I correct? Pleasure Beach Holdings is the organisation where the company holds reserves (currently Ā£3.5m in cash plus others). They key information is that the profit in the last set of accounts fell, but the group was still profitable to the tune of Ā£300k, and this is with a fall in visitor numbers and turnover. In the view of a lender, a major investment would increase visitor numbers and turnover - so this would increase profit.
BPB also has a major benefit of local government support due to it being a major employer and tourism draw in a deprived area. It would be likely that BPB would be supported in any future investment in terms of either a grant or a guarantee.

I am confused with a few of your statements:
1. "They would have to offer up some assets". With it being borrowing for a new attraction, the security would be against the said attraction or the park as a whole. I don't understand the statement of "offering up some assets"?
2. "Poor reliability on major rides". Last season BPB's ride reliability out performed other major parks. I'm also unsure how ride reliability affects the ability to borrow?
3. "The money pit that is Valhalla". It's my understanding that Valhalla is now operating as expected. It is also one of the most popular rides on park (in better weather) and a major draw. I'm unsure where you have got your information that it is a "money pit"
4. The park does have issues, but I wouldn't state they have "huge problems". If anything (bar the poo-show that was opening day) their ongoing investment and maintenance is a massive positive.

I do feel that you are mixing up personal borrowing against business borrowing for growth. If the park can demonstrate that a new attraction will increase visitor numbers and turnover, they will get the money without question. Case and point being if Hyperia delivers financially for Thorpe and BPB demonstrate this to their bank they would easily get funding for a similar project.
 
Nope, I am looking at the latest group accounts. 300k on a revenue of 37m isn't even worth talking about. Its pathetic. Then add in some prior tax issues, they actually lose money. Anyway, the important thing is cash.

They generated a measly 600k in cash from operations. Again, this is terrible. For the amount of assets, this is a terrible rate of return. This isn't some startup business.

I am not saying that BPB will never make money, but the fact is they are in a bad cycle. They don't have money on hand to invest in new things, they are closing old rides, each year, rides get more expensive to maintain. They are constrained by space (always have been) and the reputation in the local area is terrible. They have a big marketing issue they seemingly cannot solve. They can't continue closing rides and not replacing them with something better. They also can't continue people turning up and having a bad day for the huge cost.

Valhalla is operating now, but it was well known that it cost them a small fortune for years and if you look at the cost of the ride of its lifetime, its questionable if it can be considered a success. I love Valhalla btw, but I am just being honest.

I am not mixing up personal borrowing, I am *very* familiar with business finance. The long term is bleak for the park, the best they can hope for is some outside investment who see some intrinsic value.

Even if they get finance in place, one big ride isn't going to save the long term future of the park.

Your comparisons to Thorpe Park / Merlin is poor. Merlin is a huge group with massive financial firepower. They can afford to make a bet and it go wrong, BPB does NOT have that luxury.

Merlin make a big mistake on an investment = a footnote in the accounts
BPB make a mistake on an investment = potential to kill the business.
 
equinoxmist said:
Nope, I am looking at the latest group accounts. 300k on a revenue of 37m isn't even worth talking about. Its pathetic. Then add in some prior tax issues, they actually lose money. Anyway, the important thing is cash.

They generated a measly 600k in cash from operations. Again, this is terrible. For the amount of assets, this is a terrible rate of return. This isn't some startup business.

I am not saying that BPB will never make money, but the fact is they are in a bad cycle. They don't have money on hand to invest in new things, they are closing old rides, each year, rides get more expensive to maintain. They are constrained by space (always have been) and the reputation in the local area is terrible. They have a big marketing issue they seemingly cannot solve. They can't continue closing rides and not replacing them with something better. They also can't continue people turning up and having a bad day for the huge cost.

Valhalla is operating now, but it was well known that it cost them a small fortune for years and if you look at the cost of the ride of its lifetime, its questionable if it can be considered a success. I love Valhalla btw, but I am just being honest.

I am not mixing up personal borrowing, I am *very* familiar with business finance. The long term is bleak for the park, the best they can hope for is some outside investment who see some intrinsic value.

Even if they get finance in place, one big ride isn't going to save the long term future of the park.

Your comparisons to Thorpe Park / Merlin is poor. Merlin is a huge group with massive financial firepower. They can afford to make a bet and it go wrong, BPB does NOT have that luxury.

Merlin make a big mistake on an investment = a footnote in the accounts
BPB make a mistake on an investment = potential to kill the business.
Click to expand...
I'd absolutely love to have this conversation over a few pints in the Velvet Coaster!

You are making a number of very negative statements about BPB which are unsubstantiated and can't be backed up, and some which were clearly untrue... to the point that I feel you want the place to fail.

I would agree that you cant argue the Valhalla refurb has not been successful. This is down to BPB's marketing though, not the ride (They literally released an advert where they didn't tell you where it was).

I have made no comparisons with Merlin - you can't. One is a family owned business the other is a multi-national PLC. The only statement I made was with regards to market trends - ie. if Thorpe's new Hyper-coaster does well this demonstrates the market is there for similar attractions.

You again state the long term is "bleak" for Pleasure Beach. I don't necessarily disagree with you in terms of current leadership, however financially it isn't. I'd be interested to know what information you have regarding "the bleakness" of BPB's future. I have worked with family owned businesses before, where they artificially keep the profitability of the core company low - they do this to reduce tax liabilities and also to deter 'snipers'. I would suggest, despite the last set of accounts showing a loss for the park it could have been profitable - you need to remember the Valhalla refurb alone cost Ā£4m, you then had the PMBO track replacement and the work done on Nash and Dippers track.

My opinion (and I am not stating this as fact as you have been doing) is that the place is being mis-managed horrifically. I just don't see the financials as being as horrific as you are stating.

You talk about the luxury that Merlin has as being part of a larger group - and you are right. BPB, however, has the luxury of being a major tourist attraction and employer in a deprived area which has huge support from the local authority.
 
What have I said that is unsubstantiated? Everything I have said is backed up by the financial statements.

I own a ltd company, this myth that you can artificially reduce profits on a large scale is just that a myth. HMRC are far stricter than they used to be. It can be done to a certain extent, but only marginal. If BPB are making only 300k profit, even if the real figure is double that, its still terrible. Also, cash doesn't lie. Just look at the cash flow statements!

You seem to keep forgetting the ever increasing cost of some of their legacy rides, other issues that Alton towers etc don't have to the same extent.

I don't deny that BPB is backed heavily by the council and they could keep going for years in a limited form, just keep limping along. But you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think BPB is going to get any ground breaking rides which put it back on the rollercoaster map.

I suspect we don't agree, and yes a few pints in the velvet coaster would no doubt be fun.

I don't want PB to fail, I am just frankly being realistic. If I had the opportunity to invest in BPB - I wouldn't take it. Sounds brutal but I just wouldn't make a decent return to justify the risk. Maybe I am just a crap investor, but I like my own record

Here is a challenge for you: Give me 30m to sort out BPB, and in return I will *try* to give you 300k (1%), or you can stick in government bonds which will give you 4% (1m+) with near zero risk.

:D
 
Pleasurebeech would be bonkers to take out a loan with current lending rates. Best wait a year or two when inflation goes down. I think a new ride is probably 2-3 years away anyway. I still think a new thrilling flat for next season is needed short term before they even start work on a new coaster.
 
The councils involvement is also an issue.
They have been known to support the park financially over the years, often around a recession.
Low interest loans, guaranteeing of loans, short term support, all been done repeatedly in the past.
The park has been run poorly for years, no doubt.
But businesses can cook the books quite easily when there are no real shareholders and a number of earning assets within the group.
 
Status
This topic has been locked. No further replies can be posted.
Top