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Blackpool Pleasure Beach: General Discussion

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It's madness to suggest "RMCing" fantastic rides like Big Dipper. The historical rides at Pleasure Beach have stood the test of time whilst the park evolved around it, completely different to anywhere else and we're so lucky to have such a unique selection of historical coasters and rides in the UK.

Seeing 90+ year old rides next to newer ones (especially next year) is very special IMO, it's what BPB is about.

Of course the coaster experience is down to the individual's opinion but the "RMC it because I don't like it" view is very selfish IMO.
 
Bit of an odd one, and very relevant to the last few posts.

I got an email a few days ago to tell me that my application for the Wild Mouse to be listed had been considered and declined. I have absolutely no memory of making this application - apparently it was five years ago - but presumably they considered all the applications for rides at Blackpool at once.

Historic England said:
Application Name: Wild Mouse, Blackpool Pleasure Beach
Number: 1417238 Type: New
Heritage Category: Listing
Address: Blackpool Pleasure Beach Ltd,Ocean Boulevard,Promenade,Blackpool,FY4 1EZ

Recommendation: Reject

Assessment

In 2013 we received an application to assess the Wild Mouse for listing. The structure did not meet the threat criterion for urgent assessment, but as it came under one of the priorities of the National Heritage Protection Plan, it went forward for initial assessment. The listing assessment was then postponed until it could be carried out at the same time as other assessments resulting from research being carried out on the development of amusement parks and seaside heritage nationally.

The Wild Mouse is a wooden rollercoaster designed in 1958 in-house by Blackpool Pleasure Beach, similar to a 1957 design by the German company Mack. It was modified by the Velare brothers in the 1960s, and also recently modified and extended by the Pleasure Beach.

Based on the information provided and with reference to the Principles of Selection for Listing Buildings (DCMS, March 2010) and the Historic England Listing Selection Guides, in particular that for Culture and Entertainment Buildings (2011), the Wild Mouse is not recommended for listing for the following principal reasons:

* Alteration: the ride has twice seen major alterations which reduce its integrity as a mid-C20 entertainment structure;
* Design quality: the design was derived from rather than executed by a leading design house, and the application acknowledges that prior to the 1960s alterations it was relatively lacklustre. The quality of the structure does not reach the extremely high standard required for post war buildings to be of special interest.

SOURCES
Toulmin, Professor V, Blackpool Pleasure Beach: More Than Just An Amusement Park (2011), 82-3
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gbtWx7M.png


Like I said, I have no recollection of doing this but now the decision has come back I feel quite annoyed! If they've listed the Dipper despite vastly more major alterations then they have applied their rules inconsistently, even within the same location. Should I appeal?

EXCELLENT news about the Nash and the Dipper though! :D
 
Different rules for pre and post WWII apparently.
"The quality of the structure does not reach the extremely high standards required for post war buildings..."
How dare they.
 
Sam said:
If they've listed the Dipper despite vastly more major alterations then they have applied their rules inconsistently, even within the same location.
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There already has been discussions in this thread about the modifications on the Big Dipper, they were made in the 1930s, making the ride still pre-war. Whereas your response lists the Wild Mouse modifications happening in the 1960s and therefore less historically interesting.
 
Jamie said:
Of course the coaster experience is down to the individual's opinion but the "RMC it because I don't like it" view is very selfish IMO.
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I'm sure there are rides you'd happily see removed that others like, does that make you selfish as well?

I think dipper could be RMC'd into a great coaster with little modifications to layout. I know it won't happen as it's a classic which I don't deny.

What The Nash and Dipper could really do with is completely re-tracking by someone like GCI, I've heard Stampedia runs beautifully now it's been done.
 
As much as I'd love to see an RMC in the UK, I dont think the Big Dipper is right for it. Its listed for a reason, I think justly so.

If we see an RMC (ever) my guess is that it will be purpose built at TP.
 
GCI retracked woodies at BPB (minus Mouse, I doubt anyone sensible will touch it) would be great
 
jon81uk said:
There already has been discussions in this thread about the modifications on the Big Dipper, they were made in the 1930s, making the ride still pre-war. Whereas your response lists the Wild Mouse modifications happening in the 1960s and therefore less historically interesting.
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I presume the last part of that is your interpretation of what Historic England said, rather than your own personal view. The pre-war / post-war divide, while useful for describing architectural idioms (usually the difference between art-deco, the last vestige of ornamentation, and brutalism, the first great modernist style) is completely arbitrary as a measure of whether a building deserves listing or not.

The Wild Mouse as a coaster is far more unique than the Dipper, which is pretty similar to dozens of older coasters in America. The Mouse is similar to only one operating coaster in the world, and its later modifications actually enhance its merit rather than detract (as it's very rare for a rollercoaster once completed to be extended later in such a jerrybuilt way as the Mouse was).

I think I have grounds for appeal on two points:
1. That an inconsistent approach has been taken, with the Dipper being listed despite more extensive modifications.
2. As far as I can see, there has been a factual inaccuracy in that they have said the ride was "recently modified and extended by the Pleasure Beach."

Does anybody know what they're talking about with regard to that latter point? Are they confusing "modification and extension" with standard re-tracking and maintenance?
 
Rick said:
Do they do traditional wood, or just topper track?
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Taken from their website:
topper track
Pre-engineered track product that consists of a steel “box” that replaces the top two layers of the traditional wood stack. A new six layer laminated wood stack is attached to the new Topper Track during the manufacturing process. Topper Track can utilize existing or new wood or steel ledgers.
Patent pending: Europe, China, Canada, Mexico, and US

Uses:

  • Topper Track can be used to create a brand new state of the art attraction, such as The Outlaw Run.
  • Topper Track can transform an existing and aging ride into a smooth exhilarating attraction.
  • Topper Track comes with a 5 year warranty.
Benefits:
The Topper Track allows the park to maintain the aesthetic and general feel of a traditional wood track while minimizing maintenance costs. Topper Track creates a smooth riding experience , limiting liability for the park. Exciting elements can be incorporated such as inversions, extreme banking etc.

topper-track2.jpg
topper-track1.jpg
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Link to web page as photos won't post:
https://www.rockymtnconstruction.com/topper-track.php
 
I find the whole 'RMCing' the Big Dipper a bit silly to be honest. :p

If The Big Dipper needs it I'm sure GCI will be able to do a full retrack with new millennium flyers, look at the Towers for example, they have shipping containers plonked down by them for the last half of every season and not to mention 2/3 of a ride inside them! But I don't think any of Blackpool's woodies will get retracked anytime soon.
 
This conversation is a waste of time.

If a ride has been Grade II listed it will never be 'RMC'd'. It will also not have Millennium Flyers added as they are completely different in form to PTC-style trains, and the trains are an essential part of the listed structure.

Why would anyone want a century-old ride to be 'RMC'd' anyway (unless you were a philistine)?
 
I can't comment on an RMC because I'm yet to ride one, they seem to be the norm at the moment in the states. Despite that, Big Dipper and Grand National I hope never get that treatment. Classic coasters are very rare these days and I still enjoy the old school experience shall we say.
 
Sam said:
Why would anyone want a century-old ride to be 'RMC'd' anyway (unless you were a philistine)?
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Because some people want to watch the world burn, apparently. o_O

I'm well aware I don't follow the general consensus and that my views and ideas are not well received, but do you honestly think Pleasure Beach give that much of damn about Dipper being Grade II listed? You remember Southport's Cyclone and The Texas Tornado at Frontierland right? Both built in the 30's and both destroyed without a care in the world.

For me, I don't see the historical significance of the ride and therefore I have no issues with whatever happens to it. As ever with you Sam it's black or white; 'this person must hate all things of historical significance then if he thinks Dipper should be modified'. Yes, Sam that's exactly what it means. :rolleyes:

I stand by my comments and my disliking for the ride, I also understand why my comments spark controversy and disagreement, at least I'm honest.

It wouldn't be the first time someone's said something on this forum that the majority disagree with and I've been around long enough to take it on the chin. Getting too old to fight against petulant keyboard warriors who cry and hurl assumptions because you don't agree with them or you say something outlandish.

"ain't nobody got time for that!" Still down with the youngens vernacular though :cool:
 
Spike said:
I'm well aware I don't follow the general consensus and that my views and ideas are not well received, but do you honestly think Pleasure Beach give that much of damn about Dipper being Grade II listed? You remember Southport's Cyclone and The Texas Tornado at Frontierland right? Both built in the 30's and both destroyed without a care in the world.
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I agree with Cyclone, but not with Tornado - people are seemingly quick to forget that Geoffrey Thompson really tried to flog Tornado but nobody wanted it - why would they, to be fair. It was prohibitively expensive to move it and you couldn't leave it where it was because the land was already sold.

Cyclone is trickier, in a backward way, the destruction of Cyclone in some ways secured the Blackpool woodies. If someone else had bought the Southport site in its existing state and operated it in competition with the Pleasure Beach, that would have spelt disaster*

*not the fairground that it is now.
 
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