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Blackpool Pleasure Beach: General Discussion
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Rick
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- Crux
I can only conclude you haven't ridden one if you think as much?
Spike
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- Taron
I'm not sure how it would of spelt disaster, the park was losing money and was a victim of the company's own success. When the tourism industry took a big hit with the introduction of cheap European holidays, they put themselves in direct competition with themselves for the Northern trade.
If installing Traumatizer didn't work and the Thompson family couldn't make it work, what makes you so sure another company could take trade away from the Pleasure Beach and who would have bought it knowing full well who was on their doorstep?
With regards to the Dipper, Sam did actually make a good point previously in that The Wild Mouse is a very rare coaster and for me how rides or indeed any structure should be listed is on its uniqueness as well as age. The Dipper is a yawn-fest of out and back coasters which there are lots still in operation of similar ages, that's why I just don't see it as special enough, not to mention it's not even the same ride that was built. I can see why my thinking of turning it RMC would get people's blood boiling but come onnnn, it'd be so much more fun. Lol
Keep everything from the break run to the top of the first drop - station and all - but go crazy from the first drop to the break run. It's not like it's been torn down from these points and rebuilt before now has it
Rick
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I don't think it's a fad, I think it gives parks an option other than demolition and in terms of the ones I've ridden, has made them infinitely better. Only rides with low ridership or chronic maintenance problems have been converted by RMC.
The only one I would even be close to agreeing is a 'classic' would be Colossus at Magic Mountain. A ride that they didn't race for years prior to its conversion.
In terms of the others... well - they were mostly sucky rides, or were built in the early 1990s when Dinn Corp thought that building mega woodies was going to be sustainable.
- Texas Giant - opened 1990, closed 2009
- Mean Streak - opened 1991, closed 2016
- Twisted Twins - opened 1998, closed 2007 (closed for 7 years prior to conversion)
- Cyclone - opened 1983, closed 2014
- Hurler - opened 1994, closed 2015
- Medusa - opened 2000, closed 2013
- Roar - opened 1999, closed 2015
- Rattler - opened 1992, closed 2012
- Colossus - opened 1978, closed 2014 (modified in 1990s).
Because there is a fundamental difference between one company running two parks in the same market and and two different companies running the same two parks.
In the same way that you will have a Sainsburys and a Tesco supermarket two miles from each other, but you won't have two Tescos. It makes sense to compete with your competitor, but not with yourself.
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CGM
TS Member
You can have whatever opinion you want of the ride experience but if Big Dipper isn't historically significant, frankly, I don't know what ride is.
The fact that it's one of the oldest coasters in the world and a beloved landmark for the town of Blackpool that's stood for almost 100 years should be enough for it to be considered historically significant. But if that's not enough...
It was the first coaster outside of America to have up-stop wheels and the L-shaped track profile that has been used on most wooden coasters since John Miller invented the concept. Basically, it introduced what we now think of as a wooden roller coaster to this side of the Atlantic.
To say that Big Dipper was the Nemesis of its day is probably an understatement. The most advanced coasters that existed in the UK at the time were brakeman-operated scenic railways. Then along came Dipper with its towering hills, steep drops, high speeds and out-of-seat sensations. The leap in coaster technology was monumental. So much so that it was featured as part of a conference on the future and ridden by several prominent figures of the day including H.G. Wells.
It was also the first coaster in the world to carry the name Big Dipper, which has since become so widely used that it's a term synonymous with roller coaster.
Again, just because you don't like the ride does not mean it has no historical significance.
I think you miss the point of preservation. The fact that there are comparable examples in existance doesn't justify destroying historically interesting structures. No one gets to decide how rare something has to be before it's deemed to be worth saving.
It's not just about protecting things that are rare, it's also about preserving heritage. It's about the relationship between Blackpool and Big Dipper, the part it's played in the town's history and our culture as a whole. In that respect, there are few rides that can compare to Dipper.
This is ignoring the fact that all the coasters that are directly comparable to Dipper are in the US, thousands of miles away. I'd much rather keep the example we have here than have to go all the way to Kennywood to experience something similar.
DiogoJ42
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- The Metropolitan Line
I'm not a huge fan of Dipper as a ride, but that doesn't mean I can't apriciate it's cultural and historic value. In much the same way that I find the entire South Bank a revolting concrete eyesore, buuut....
(EDIT: And OK, maybe the RMC conversions weren't so "classic" to begin with, but It's still a fad. )
(EDIT: And OK, maybe the RMC conversions weren't so "classic" to begin with, but It's still a fad.
)
Spike
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- Taron
Do I appreciate it's contribution? Yes
Do I think it should be Grade II listed still? No
I'm sorry, I just can't get on board with it being that historical in comparison to something like Blackpool Tower say. The ride has been changed and rebuilt, and over the years replaced probably 2-3 times over, how does that put it on the same pedestal as the other Grade II listed structures in Blackpool like The Winter Gardens or The Grand Theatre, these haven't been rebuilt many times over the years.
Give the ride a place of historic interest but it's not worth listing in my view, if it was the worlds first to do everything you mentioned then I could see your point, but it wasn't, it was just the first in the UK. Do you think they'll argue for PMBO to be listed as it was the first coaster to exceed 200ft, or Oblivion, Air, The Smiler etc because they all did something unique and world's first at their time.
There are 2 ASDA's in Blackpool that are 0.4miles away from each other.
Starbucks occupy 4 premises in Glasgow within a 200yard radius.
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CGM
TS Member
The effect of replacing timbers in the ride is vastly overstated. I highly doubt the structure has been renewed twice over the years, it just doesn't happen regularly enough.
It's also true of any coaster of that age so I don't know why Dipper is so frequently singled out for this reason.
In my view, it's also largely irrelevant. Any of the great medieval cathedrals will have had their limestone exterior continuously replaced over the centuries to the point where there's little left that's original. The golden gate bridge has been entirely replaced over the course of its life.
The point is that the structure has been there continuously for 94 years. Of course it's seen extensive repairs, it's made of wood!
If Historic England used your critera, hardly anything would be listed.
Blackpool Tower? It's an Eiffel Tower rip-off. Loads of those around the world, wasn't even first. Nothing particularly special about that.
Winter Gardens - the opera house was rebuilt twice in 1910 and 1939. The exterior has also changed dramatically as it's been extensively modified. It looks nothing like the original design. Therefore it shouldn't be Grade 2 listed.
The Grand Theatre? Absolutely loads of ornate Victorian theatres like that in this country alone, never mind the world. Knock it down and build a bowling alley. I find those more fun.
If you look into what most Grade 2 listed buildings and structures are, they tend to be fairly innocuous things like parish halls, old milestones or even lamp stands. I did a search for listed structures in my small market town. I got back 512 results!
On this basis, given the rarity of the structure and its cultural significance, Big Dipper more than qualifies.
If any of the coasters you mention do survive as long as Big Dipper has, I'd say they'd have a very good chance of being listed. Particularly the Big One which is already somewhat of an icon for the town.
I honestly have no idea what you're getting at here.
Spike
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You've just single handedly contradicted all your previous posts and agreed with me but on opposing structures lol
There are multiple Dipper style coasters around the world of similar age and yet you think The Tower is not worthy of being listed because there's one or two similar. The Tower is more significant to Blackpool heritage than The Big Dipper is, even The Flying Machines are.
It's okay for you to think structures like The Tower, The Grand and The Winter Gardens are not suitable for listing because they've been modified or rebuilt around the same time but if I think Dipper isn't, I'm wrong.
If you think they're not worth listing then that's your choice, but I think we both know which structures were more significant in Blackpool's rise to prominence.
If you're going down the route of just mirroring my views against other Blackpool structures then that's just a petty way of discussion, at least I respected your views.
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Spike
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They are, The Tower is Grade I listed, Winter Gardens and The Grand Theatre are Grade II
CGM
TS Member
I think it's pretty obvious that's exactly what I'm doing. Of couse the Tower, Winter Gardens and Grand Theatre should be listed! ( and they all are by the way @delta79 ).
I'm merely trying to point out how your reasons why Dipper isn't worth saving can be applied to a number of Blackpool's other listed historic landmarks.
You might think it's petty but I see it as showing you your arguments in a different context that doesn't suit your agenda.
Spike
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Agenda, don't be so dramatic. I have an opinion that you and others don't agree with, simple. I have no 'agenda' or hate everything historical or cultural. I simply just disagree with Dipper being Grade II listed.
Of course you're entitled to defend this and I have stated that my views are not the general consensus. You turned it into a petty tit-for-tat, I'm not going to stoop to that level I'm afraid.
Of course you're entitled to defend this and I have stated that my views are not the general consensus. You turned it into a petty tit-for-tat, I'm not going to stoop to that level I'm afraid.
CGM
TS Member
You have continuously said that you don't think Dipper should be listed. Reasons you have given include:
-It's not the first of its kind in the world
-It was heavily modified early in its life
-It's not rare enough to be considered
You then gave 3 examples of buildings in Blackpool you presumably believe are worthy of being listed, all of which fall short of your critera.
What I'm trying to point out is that if all historic structures had to meet the standards you think Dipper should meet, very few buildings would be listed at all.
In reality, the barrier to being granted listed status isn't that high and I think a lot of people would be surprised by just how many listed structures surround them in their day-to-day lives.
All I can infer from your posts is "I dont like it, therefore it isn't as important as these other buildings and shouldn't be listed".
-It's not the first of its kind in the world
-It was heavily modified early in its life
-It's not rare enough to be considered
You then gave 3 examples of buildings in Blackpool you presumably believe are worthy of being listed, all of which fall short of your critera.
What I'm trying to point out is that if all historic structures had to meet the standards you think Dipper should meet, very few buildings would be listed at all.
In reality, the barrier to being granted listed status isn't that high and I think a lot of people would be surprised by just how many listed structures surround them in their day-to-day lives.
All I can infer from your posts is "I dont like it, therefore it isn't as important as these other buildings and shouldn't be listed".
Sam
TS Member
I presume from the comment above that you don't understand the implications of the ride being Grade II listed. If something's listed it means it can't be demolished (without being de-listed) or altered (without the permission of Historic England) for any reason.
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