Britain and the EU

[Martin]

Doesn't our economy get 15 times back on the amount we put in? Pretty sure I recently saw government figures saying that. Leaving would be economic suicide.

The EU has its faults, but it's amusing how often the argument for leaving boils down to them deciding we have to change what units we use to measure weight or whatever. It's hardly a big deal considering all the things we, and the continent as a whole, get out of it.

 

[Sam]

I know it sounds trivial, but by far one of the best things the EU has ever achieved is not having to change your currency multiple times if you're travelling around Europe, or having to stop, queue in your car and show your passport! (along with all the visas and entry clearances that involves)

 

[TPMC]

I know it sounds trivial, but by far one of the best things the EU has ever achieved is not having to change your currency multiple times if you're travelling around Europe, or having to stop, queue in your car and show your passport! (along with all the visas and entry clearances that involves)

I don't want to be sarcastic, but if any EU citizen want to visit UK they need to change currency and they need to show ID or passport.
You need to see that UK is most independent country in EU anyway!

 

[Meat Pie]

I wouldn't say that the EU is doing a good job of keeping peace, in fact it's paving the way for war right now. The rich northern countries like the UK and Germany are forcing the broke southern countries like Greece, Spain and Italy to install horrendously harsh austerity packages in exchange for bail-out money, despite being completely against the will of those country's citizens. It's almost as if they've become the guinea pigs for an extreme right wing social experiment, and I will be surprised if it doesn't eventually end in war.

There are fundamental democratic problems with the EU... But crucially, the good thing about it is that it brings international consensus on social issues, human rights and environmental issues, which is vital to make them work.

What you need is independent democracies, but bound together with core progressive objectives of improving the lives of people no matter what their nationality, and not an organisation that allows for individual countries to impose economic models on others simply because it is beneficial to them. Having said all that, I still think it would be madness to leave and be shouting from the sidelines, it makes sense trying to achieve those aims democratically within the EU.

 

[Dar]

I like the EU, but I don't like the way it's run. I'm not a fan on the standardisation that is happening across the block. I like the quirks of other countries. I like the idea of going to different countries to see and do different things.

I don't see why the EU has evolved from the common market into what appears to be a single country. The common market is a great idea, but I firmly believe that trying to integrate everybody into one country won't work. There are just too many cultural differences for a single economy to work.

 

[BigT]

The EU is probably the greatest thing mankind has ever achieved. An organisation that is responsible for ending the previous 500 years of Europeans constantly butchering and killing each other. France and Germany now talking, instead of warring.

It obviously has its faults and foibles, but wanting to leave is madness. And dangerous for world peace - the more major countries that leave the EU, the greater the chances of descending back into perpetual European war.

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2

I don't remember too many wars between the French and the Germans, I remember Germany invading and France giving in without much of a fight.
Their not called cheese eating surrender monkeys for nothing.

 

[Harv]

I don't remember too many wars between the French and the Germans, I remember Germany invading and France giving in without much of a fight.
Their not called cheese eating surrender monkeys for nothing.

I appreciate that this was said in a jokey context, but I do feel that it was a little uncalled for. I have relatives from Paris dating back who were killed fighting for France and it's a bit of a historical discredit to say that France didn't commit to war.

Nonetheless, it's interesting to see so many divided opinions on this one! Not often do you see such contrast as;

The EU is probably the greatest thing mankind has ever achieved.

and;

I will tell you something, as I came from post communist country and I still remember.... For me European Union looks very similar now to what Soviet Union did to Eastern Europe a few decades ago.

Really fascinating reading.

 

[Sam]

I will tell you something, as I came from post communist country and I still remember.... For me European Union looks very similar now to what Soviet Union did to Eastern Europe a few decades ago.

Yeah, the Soviet Union and the European Union are very similar. In that they both have the word Union in the name, and they're both an organisation composed of member nations. And, err, well that's about it. Care to elaborate on the similarities...? :

I like the EU, but I don't like the way it's run. I'm not a fan on the standardisation that is happening across the block. I like the quirks of other countries. I like the idea of going to different countries to see and do different things.

Cultural quirks of other countries are fun. Having to change your money every time you cross a border, or countries in Europe having the inhumane death penalty isn't fun. The aim of the EU isn't to eliminate all cultural identities and assimilate every European into one big super-state. It's to try and make life easier for everyone in Europe by working together on the stuff that makes sense, that makes our continent better.

I identify much more strongly as European than as British or English. As a continent, I'm incredibly proud of the huge contributions we've made to art, science and political liberalism and tolerance.

 

[Rupert]

Look at Norway, they aren't in the EU (and have no intention of joining up as my ex-norwegian girlfriend told me) and are happily getting along while being close friends with their fellow european nations and (I think) have a strong economy in this money-troubling times.

Norway's vast wealth and economic success is largely due to the way it has handled its revenue from North Sea oil - it is the reckless spending of the UK's North Sea oil revenue, initiated by Thatcher in the mid-1980s and continued ever since, that contribute to our economic problems in comparison.

Successive Norwegian governments have taken a longer-term view with regards to their oil revenue (from state-owned oil companies [e.g. Statoil], tax revenue and the sale of licenses for exploration). They set up The Petroleum Fund of Norway (now The Government Pension Fund – Global) to prepare for declining oil-related income and save necessary funds for the future to help ride out global economic crises. In September of last year the fund had a value of $654 billion, expected to reach $717 billion in 2014 and $1.3 trillion in 2030.

The UK could have had a similar petroleum fund - after all, there continue to be regular, large oil discoveries made every year in the UK North Sea (including in the West of Shetlands in 2012). However, it should be noted that Norway owns about 60% of Statoil so also receives considerable profit revenue. But as the UK government's have been too short-sighted, we are in massive debt whilst Norway have considerable surplus. Our membership of the EU (and Norway's lack thereof) has little bearing on whether this would be the case were we have a petroleum wealth fund like theirs.

---

To answer the original question, I am massively in favour of the EU. We get back far more than we put in, and not just in economic terms (although projects such as the EU's investment into local community schemes across the UK are often overlooked). Cross-border travel; the ability to live and work anywhere in the EU (something I'm currently enjoying in the Netherlands); advancements for human rights (again, not just in the EU); a strong judiciary system; strong UK influence on the continent (currently being eroded by the idiots we have in charge); and strong economic, diplomatic, military and social influence on the world stage.

Others have said it, but leaving the EU, or at the least being less involved in it - for example Cameron's refusal to sign the European Fiscal Compact, paving the way for all other EU countries apart from us to enact beneficial budgetary policies and to promote greater stability and growth within the EU - would be a complete disaster. The UK is on the road to insignificance, led by a short-sighted government catering to the self-serving views of a few wealthy conservative and Conservative individuals at the expense of the rest of the country.

Britain used to have key influence in the EU and it would do well to regain that, but it is being eroded away and other states are losing patience and are happy to bypass the UK on key decisions. We rely on the EU as a major (the most important) economic market for exports and cheaper imports, for subsidising our agriculture sector through the CAP, and for subsidising about two thirds of Wales, the Scottish Highlands and Islands, South Yorkshire and Merseyside - all because theses regions are economically poor and in an attempt to reduce disparity between regions of the UK. Without this EU financing, these regions of our London-centric country would be even worse off.

There's no need to lose heritage and cultural identity because we share economic and legislative organisation. There's every need to stay economically competitive and influential. Leaving the EU - even becoming less involved - would be a long-lasting, unbelievably damaging move which would permanently screw over the UK.

---

I had written the above mainly focussing on the economic benefits of the EU, which generally people seem to feel are the most relevant reasons for being a part of it (or not). However, Sam raises an excellent point about the arts, sciences, political liberalism and tolerance - and not least our contribution to humanitarian plights around the world as part of the EU. Membership of the EU is not just an economic consideration (although economics alone make it more than worthwhile) - education and the vast range of social improvements are also hugely important.

 

[Dar]

I like the EU, but I don't like the way it's run. I'm not a fan on the standardisation that is happening across the block. I like the quirks of other countries. I like the idea of going to different countries to see and do different things.

Cultural quirks of other countries are fun. Having to change your money every time you cross a border, or countries in Europe having the inhumane death penalty isn't fun. The aim of the EU isn't to eliminate all cultural identities and assimilate every European into one big super-state. It's to try and make life easier for everyone in Europe by working together on the stuff that makes sense, that makes our continent better.

I identify much more strongly as European than as British or English. As a continent, I'm incredibly proud of the huge contributions we've made to art, science and political liberalism and tolerance.

But it seems like they are trying to assimilate everybody into one big super state! The Euro is a great idea, but fixing things like interest rates centrally isn't, in my opinion.

Like I said, I like the idea and concept of the EU but I feel like they have overstepped their original purpose. Why does it need to micro-manage things such as, to use the often used example, the shape of fruit?

 

[Sam]

Like I said, I like the idea and concept of the EU but I feel like they have overstepped their original purpose. Why does it need to micro-manage things such as, to use the often used example, the shape of fruit?

Except of course, that the 'shape of fruit' hysteria is mostly a myth. The actual truth of it being a series of un-notable international standards for the classification of food produce that was pushed for by the food industry and national agricultural ministers is a lot more boring.

Just one of the hundreds of EU myths whipped up by Britain's tabloid press in an attempt to appeal to xenophobic and cynical aspects of British society. We face a stark choice: we either remain a key member of the European Union or we become an international irrelevancy as the rest of Europe continues to shape the future of our species without us.

 

[Dar]

Fair enough, I'll except that.

I do however still think that there should be less economic bonding. Having one central bank would, in my opinion, be as disastrous as the EU collapsing. The range of countries is just far too vast for one single economic policy to work. The interest rate is usually used as a way to help control the rate of inflation, but if two countries have different inflation problems then one policy isn't going to help?

EDIT: As I've said, I think we should still be a part of the EU, I just have concerns about how far reaching its powers and say should be.

 

[Fredward]

Petty as it maybe, I like using £'s not €'s The icon is better, and I like the currency.

Thats as far as I care about this issue.

 

[TPMC]

I will tell you something, as I came from post communist country and I still remember.... For me European Union looks very similar now to what Soviet Union did to Eastern Europe a few decades ago.

Yeah, the Soviet Union and the European Union are very similar. In that they both have the word Union in the name, and they're both an organisation composed of member nations. And, err, well that's about it. Care to elaborate on the similarities...? :

Is in English:

Związek Socjalistycznych Republik Europejskich?

 

[Jordan]

The majority of this country's view about Europe is driven by scaremongoring and xenophobia from the Daily Express.

 

[AstroDan]

Re: Re: Britain and the EU

The majority of this country's view about Europe is driven by scaremongoring and xenophobia from the Daily Express.

Amen.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Plastic Person]

Whilst I'm becoming slightly more convinced that pulling out of the EU wouldn't completely destroy our economy, I am worried that the driving force behind many people's dissatisfaction with the current setup is to do with the sort of jingoism and xenophobia that naturally arises in societies during an economic crisis. The right are focusing more and more on aspects like immigration and even some great, often baseless cultural divide to promote a referendum. Whilst the EU has changed the face of the country over time, I'm not sure people are fully aware of the effects leaving would have on the lives of the working man in terms of human and workers rights. The widespread opinion amongst much of the Conservative party, and in some areas of big business, is that these sort of directives must be changed so that people feel encouraged to work more hours for far fewer benefits to compete again internationally. Now, I don't want to see our country fall behind other emerging superpowers, I've already seen the general quality of life decline as of late and would genuinely be out of here if I saw much more of the same.

 

[Sam]

The well-being and quality of life of citizens is more important than having a bigger economy than anyone else, or competing internationally. That should be accepted by all right-minded people without question.

That said, we can have both. We can have a high quality of life with tight restrictions on working hours and minimum wage standards, but also compete internationally by joining forces with other countries in Europe to work more efficiently - possibly in some sort of economic union...?

 

[BigT]

So you don't think the worlds 6th biggest economy couldn't survive without being part of Europe?

More to the point increasingly Europe won't be able to survive without us so don't let the Guardian fool you into thinking that.
I suggest a little more balanced research is done before stating such balderdash.

Only on these boards could it be stated that to have a vote on something is somehow undemocratic and the citizens of this country are too xenophobic to listen to balanced arguments on both sides and be intelligent enough to make a decision that is best for this country.

And before you start I don't know which way I would vote, I'd like to listen to both sides of the argument first but we only seem to get one side unfortunately.

 

[Sam]

Re: Re: Britain and the EU

So you don't think the worlds 6th biggest economy couldn't survive without being part of Europe?

We're only the world's sixth biggest economy due to inertia, as well you know. We're a former super-power in slow decline (Brazil recently leapfrogged our economy). The only way we can stay globally influential is as a leading nation in the European Union.