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Controversy
- Thread starter Simon
- Start date
Dave
TS Founding Member
The following is my opinion and not necessarily that of the wider team...
Ohh for crying out loud, this is a theme park forum. There are people from every political background on this forum who can't debate politely and sometimes I think it would be far better to completely get rid of these debating topics as they do nothing but cause the team a huge headache.
Then I remember most people know how to debate passionately without being rude and starting a war of words so why should they suffer. I think everyone needs to look at their own posting style and consider if they really get their point across out of a passion for the debate or just because they want to win!
I'm fed up if TS reputation being dependent on the minority!
**rant over**
Ohh for crying out loud, this is a theme park forum. There are people from every political background on this forum who can't debate politely and sometimes I think it would be far better to completely get rid of these debating topics as they do nothing but cause the team a huge headache.
Then I remember most people know how to debate passionately without being rude and starting a war of words so why should they suffer. I think everyone needs to look at their own posting style and consider if they really get their point across out of a passion for the debate or just because they want to win!
I'm fed up if TS reputation being dependent on the minority!
**rant over**
LiamC
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Hex
Dave said:
I couldn't agree with this more.
It's come to the point where I now like to stay away from topics of "controversy" or mass debate for fear of being shot down for my own views or not generally knowing enough on the subject and, once again, fearing being shot down. I find it sad that I should even think like this, let alone actually feel like it. I posted my thoughts in the Holocaust Sham topic as I felt so strongly about it, but I will be steering clear of topics like this in the future.
I'd also like to add that it isn't just in the Off Topic forums that this occurs, but in all topics across the board, it just isn't as prevalent in these as it is in Corner Coffee or the Box Office to some extent.
BigDave
TS Member
Couldn't agree more. If people are not going to to discuss topics instead of argue with each other, then I say we should just remove the corner coffee area altogether. I sometimes comment on certain topics and can make slightly abusive or personal digs, but recently people seem to be doing it all the time.
This is an Alton Towers forum. The main thing we should talk about therefore is Alton Towers.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
This is an Alton Towers forum. The main thing we should talk about therefore is Alton Towers.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
BigDave said:
I'm so glad that someone finally said this. To be honest I have stayed away from commenting for a while for this reason.. I know there is less to talk about regarding the park at the moment due to it being closed, but I am looking forward to when it comes back to being about the towers again..
Tom
TS Member
I personally feel that sarcasm is rife in some of the topics, and that sarcasm fuels the abuse - neither of which can be justified.
The key here is that sarcasm and abuse is not being effectively reined in, and I'm not sure why. I've been kindly approached about my posting style in the past and that has evoked change in me.
I've reponded to some highly provocative and personalised comments in the past, which I still feel people should be entitled to. However why should people be allowed to continue to provoke in the various ways that they do?
I don't know who else is approached with advice/warnings, but I find that more sarcasm comes from well established members than it does the others. So whether some people are given more leeway because they are in a clique or are known personally from meets etc - or that people aren't responding to advice/warnings - I don't know.
I find over use of the quotation feature frequently leads to intensified personal exchanges, also.
In a nutshell, I feel that no topic should ever get to a point that it is locked, providing that sarcasm and abuse is nipped in the bood quickly and effectively.
The key here is that sarcasm and abuse is not being effectively reined in, and I'm not sure why. I've been kindly approached about my posting style in the past and that has evoked change in me.
I've reponded to some highly provocative and personalised comments in the past, which I still feel people should be entitled to. However why should people be allowed to continue to provoke in the various ways that they do?
I don't know who else is approached with advice/warnings, but I find that more sarcasm comes from well established members than it does the others. So whether some people are given more leeway because they are in a clique or are known personally from meets etc - or that people aren't responding to advice/warnings - I don't know.
I find over use of the quotation feature frequently leads to intensified personal exchanges, also.
In a nutshell, I feel that no topic should ever get to a point that it is locked, providing that sarcasm and abuse is nipped in the bood quickly and effectively.
BigT
TS Member
I was trying to be kind when I said its a couple, it's one really and he can always be guaranteed to come along and play a staring role.
I was hoping he might have taken the hint and not have to name names but seeing as I've been insulted again above I shall.
Your posts Sam are grotesquely insulting and don't move the topics on one little bit, you seem to have been to the Alastair Cambell school of debating where you attack the person and not the post.
If you don't agree with what is been said then say why you don't agree and what your ideals are instead, it's not rocket science.
But I guess the star of TS will be along again soon now with his band of merry men to insult me again, giving examples of where I have been provoked into giving abusive answers and only posting one side of the argument but you know what, I don't give a .
We won't always agree as we have two very different views on the world, but stop the insulting, your posts in the park pages prove you can write amazing posts so why be a hater.
I'm giving you a carrot here so take it, and stop with the stereotypes.
I was hoping he might have taken the hint and not have to name names but seeing as I've been insulted again above I shall.
Your posts Sam are grotesquely insulting and don't move the topics on one little bit, you seem to have been to the Alastair Cambell school of debating where you attack the person and not the post.
If you don't agree with what is been said then say why you don't agree and what your ideals are instead, it's not rocket science.
But I guess the star of TS will be along again soon now with his band of merry men to insult me again, giving examples of where I have been provoked into giving abusive answers and only posting one side of the argument but you know what, I don't give a .
We won't always agree as we have two very different views on the world, but stop the insulting, your posts in the park pages prove you can write amazing posts so why be a hater.
I'm giving you a carrot here so take it, and stop with the stereotypes.
Dave
TS Founding Member
If there is posts people have issue with why are they not reporting them, we get maybe one report a day and as a team all have full time jobs/ education. If people don't report then don't wonder if things don't get looked at.
The number of times I see posts edited to "delete me please" proves people don't use this feature, maybe we need to advertise it more but if you have issue report! This is not a moderated forum and we are not able to check everyone of the hundreds of posts a day. It's meant to be a community forum where everyone pitched in. Though we can go back to the dogmatic style that was used on TT if people want?
Edit: my opinion again and I'm referring on our time at TT and make no assumptions on how TT forum functions now.
The number of times I see posts edited to "delete me please" proves people don't use this feature, maybe we need to advertise it more but if you have issue report! This is not a moderated forum and we are not able to check everyone of the hundreds of posts a day. It's meant to be a community forum where everyone pitched in. Though we can go back to the dogmatic style that was used on TT if people want?
Edit: my opinion again and I'm referring on our time at TT and make no assumptions on how TT forum functions now.
BigT
TS Member
The trouble with the report button is I feel it's a bit like a grass button were you are grassing someone up.
I have always fought my own battles and will carry on doing so, but maybe if it said Flag post rather than report it might encourage its use more.
Edit: forget that I should have looked first! Big T makes a -/: out of himself again!
I have always fought my own battles and will carry on doing so, but maybe if it said Flag post rather than report it might encourage its use more.
Edit: forget that I should have looked first! Big T makes a -/: out of himself again!
Scott
Former TS Team Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis
If you feel that way about the button it's your own prerogative. However, if people don't use the feature it makes it very hard to have an argument saying that we're lenient with people or don't sort things out quick enough.
As Dave has said, we can't see everything. If a post is reported it instantly comes to our attention via email and the forum.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
As Dave has said, we can't see everything. If a post is reported it instantly comes to our attention via email and the forum.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
Craig
TS Administrator
<Team Hat>
OK before this gets into (yet another) topic of insults being thrown between a few members lets just try and cool it please
.
Now for my own views.....
I think in general, there's been some sense spoken in here. Some posts have come across with quite an aggressive or insulting tone recently, and whilst a minority may find that acceptable, it comes across as quite overbearing to the majority. From feedback seen recently, it has a tendency to put people off contributing, particularly when a topic turns into pretty much ponts scoring between a small group.
Without wanting people to take this the wrong way, I think people need a sense of balance in posts. No one likes short, 3 sentence posts contributing to a topic, whilst in the same way few want War and Peace being written in response, with sentence after sentence nitpicking at one person's point.
In short, it's a case of considering tailoring your posts to your audience. That's not just the one person arguing against you - that's making your post accessible to every single reader of the forum.
I'm not talking about dumbing down your arguments, but perhaps consider how the tone of your post comes across (particularly in terms of sarcasm!) before hitting submit, and consider whether you have put your views across as succinctly as you can.
*puts team hat back on*
Now I'm not going to pick out individual members here, but speak in general. We aim to show no bias towards anyone be they friends, whether they attend meets or whether they simply just post on the forums. Those who know me (and indeed know the rest of the team) will know that's not the case. In my time on the team both here and on TT, I've taken action on the forum against plenty of people I consider friends, and wouldn't hesitate to do so in future.
I will say that just because individuals choose to speak about being spoken to by the team or having warnings issued, does not mean that everyone does. Any action we take against members is done so privately, and it's completely up to the individual who has been warned/received a PM as to whether they wish to tell others about this.
As Dave has already mentioned, we can't watch every single topic, and the flag post button is ideal to raise issues with posts. If anyone finds an issue with a post, then please report it to us. It's not a "grass button", and no one but the team see the reports that come in - and we certainly wouldn't go listing the members who have complained if we did take action. We're only human, and sometimes getting thoughts of what other members think through reports assists us to gauge the community's thoughts on a topic rather than solely relying on our own judgement. I say this time and time again - but we would sooner have far more reports than not enough reports, so click away!
OK before this gets into (yet another) topic of insults being thrown between a few members lets just try and cool it please
.Now for my own views.....
I think in general, there's been some sense spoken in here. Some posts have come across with quite an aggressive or insulting tone recently, and whilst a minority may find that acceptable, it comes across as quite overbearing to the majority. From feedback seen recently, it has a tendency to put people off contributing, particularly when a topic turns into pretty much ponts scoring between a small group.
Without wanting people to take this the wrong way, I think people need a sense of balance in posts. No one likes short, 3 sentence posts contributing to a topic, whilst in the same way few want War and Peace being written in response, with sentence after sentence nitpicking at one person's point.
In short, it's a case of considering tailoring your posts to your audience. That's not just the one person arguing against you - that's making your post accessible to every single reader of the forum.
I'm not talking about dumbing down your arguments, but perhaps consider how the tone of your post comes across (particularly in terms of sarcasm!) before hitting submit, and consider whether you have put your views across as succinctly as you can.
*puts team hat back on*
Now I'm not going to pick out individual members here, but speak in general. We aim to show no bias towards anyone be they friends, whether they attend meets or whether they simply just post on the forums. Those who know me (and indeed know the rest of the team) will know that's not the case. In my time on the team both here and on TT, I've taken action on the forum against plenty of people I consider friends, and wouldn't hesitate to do so in future.
I will say that just because individuals choose to speak about being spoken to by the team or having warnings issued, does not mean that everyone does. Any action we take against members is done so privately, and it's completely up to the individual who has been warned/received a PM as to whether they wish to tell others about this.
As Dave has already mentioned, we can't watch every single topic, and the flag post button is ideal to raise issues with posts. If anyone finds an issue with a post, then please report it to us. It's not a "grass button", and no one but the team see the reports that come in - and we certainly wouldn't go listing the members who have complained if we did take action
. We're only human, and sometimes getting thoughts of what other members think through reports assists us to gauge the community's thoughts on a topic rather than solely relying on our own judgement. I say this time and time again - but we would sooner have far more reports than not enough reports, so click away!
Tom
TS Member
I flagged a post one single time, and that was only because I felt the only possible response to the post in question was an expression of hostility. If everyone that feels that only a hostile response is all they can type, reports the provocative post, then I'm sure problems would soon stop.
I mean it really depends on how sensitive you are. Let's take an example where BigT said that Citizen's Income is 'Stupid'. In my response I went on to say that something he had said was 'Bonkers'.
Is that what we're talking about here? Because as far as I'm concerned that's not an insult, that's just natural human reaction. I didn't take BigT's comment to mean that I'm stupid, merely that he felt that what I was advocating was. Likewise I wasn't saying that BigT was bonkers, just that his view on what we were discussing was.
It's about tackling a viewpoint with honesty, not attacking a person. Let's take a more controversial example where I likened a statement about travellers where the poster called them 'Sub-human scum', to the Nazi view that travellers are sub-human scum. I regret going on to make a flippant remark that the person who wrote this post might enjoy Mein Campf as that was flippant unnecessary and lashed out at the poster. However the original point that the view was in line with Nazi ideology was a legitimate one that focused on the statement being made, not the poster.
This is where the line really needs to be drawn. Tackling a view expressed by someone is not an insult against the poster. If someone were to attack a poster with irrelevant insults then that's where a problem would start to form in my eyes. I haven't seen too much of this.
And as for some people being deterred from posting in these debate topics - If you entered it with caution and not with the obnoxious confidence and ego that the likes of myself do, I am certain no-one would rip you apart. But if you do decide to enter with the same confidence, ego, and certainty that you are right, then your posts are fair game. You get back what you put in.
Is that what we're talking about here? Because as far as I'm concerned that's not an insult, that's just natural human reaction. I didn't take BigT's comment to mean that I'm stupid, merely that he felt that what I was advocating was. Likewise I wasn't saying that BigT was bonkers, just that his view on what we were discussing was.
It's about tackling a viewpoint with honesty, not attacking a person. Let's take a more controversial example where I likened a statement about travellers where the poster called them 'Sub-human scum', to the Nazi view that travellers are sub-human scum. I regret going on to make a flippant remark that the person who wrote this post might enjoy Mein Campf as that was flippant unnecessary and lashed out at the poster. However the original point that the view was in line with Nazi ideology was a legitimate one that focused on the statement being made, not the poster.
This is where the line really needs to be drawn. Tackling a view expressed by someone is not an insult against the poster. If someone were to attack a poster with irrelevant insults then that's where a problem would start to form in my eyes. I haven't seen too much of this.
And as for some people being deterred from posting in these debate topics - If you entered it with caution and not with the obnoxious confidence and ego that the likes of myself do, I am certain no-one would rip you apart. But if you do decide to enter with the same confidence, ego, and certainty that you are right, then your posts are fair game. You get back what you put in.
TheMan
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- NemiLerVion
Dar has comically pinched my disclaimer that I posted in the Shout Box topic, but I was beginning to feel the need to make things clear.
All to often, people make mistakes, and rather when those are explained leaving that alone, there is a tendency to continue on with the same point. I have had this many times, an inability for people to grasp no matter how clear, that I can agree and understand a decision that is taken, whilst believing there may still be a better way long term to address it.
Also, there is a little frustration coming to light from team members about this being an "Alton Towers" forum. Well you are in name, but not in spirit, and never will be unless you change who your regular and longstanding posters are.
One of the most controversial figures in here, is Sam, as he has strong opinions that are quite set in stone, and can come across as incredibly steadfast etc as discussed. Do I have an issue with this, no. Other posters the same, very strong opinions (I have them, but I hope people are getting a sense that I am not quite as harsh as I may at first seem). The thing is though, pound for pound, his coaster posts are fantastic.
"So and so coaster, place, date" is incredibly common place, and has just won Best Poster... what you have here, is a spectrum of people who represent the general public - what is it you want? A sanitised coaster forum? Yawn. Let me tell you how many of those sites I am active in....
Didn't take long.
I think the major issue here, is sentiment, that is what gets lost in text based posts. I am learning lessons quickly in here, and have taken more than my fair share of grief, which did make for me being quite a defensive poster at times, and is quite distant from the reality of who I actually am in "real life TM".
I write long posts if I feel it is required like now, to try and address an issue I feel is worth it. It is my time, that I choose to proffer to this site, as I believe in that. If that is not welcome then fine, that is something I will happily take to another place.
And I am afraid those who moan about the other topics, just what exactly are you doing reading them? They are not in the main area, there are a myriad of coaster topics to indulge in, there are many topics I found offensive or not to my taste, but being aware that it is your own perception/life experience that creates your impression is a great start! Too easy to point the finger at people in here, because you have a different view on what is or isn't acceptable.
You have something unique here, perhaps all you need to do, is be a bit more clear about where the "debating chambers" are, and create something bespoke for it. You have a need, you have an audience, so make a venue! Supply/Demand.
You have a few members, putting in enormous efforts across many topics - the fact it gets a bit heated is natural, embrace it, be grateful for it, accept it is just representative of wider society, and if you don't like that bit - stay away.
That is my War & Peace for this subject.
All to often, people make mistakes, and rather when those are explained leaving that alone, there is a tendency to continue on with the same point. I have had this many times, an inability for people to grasp no matter how clear, that I can agree and understand a decision that is taken, whilst believing there may still be a better way long term to address it.
Also, there is a little frustration coming to light from team members about this being an "Alton Towers" forum. Well you are in name, but not in spirit, and never will be unless you change who your regular and longstanding posters are.
One of the most controversial figures in here, is Sam, as he has strong opinions that are quite set in stone, and can come across as incredibly steadfast etc as discussed. Do I have an issue with this, no. Other posters the same, very strong opinions (I have them, but I hope people are getting a sense that I am not quite as harsh as I may at first seem). The thing is though, pound for pound, his coaster posts are fantastic.
"So and so coaster, place, date" is incredibly common place, and has just won Best Poster... what you have here, is a spectrum of people who represent the general public - what is it you want? A sanitised coaster forum? Yawn. Let me tell you how many of those sites I am active in....
Didn't take long.
I think the major issue here, is sentiment, that is what gets lost in text based posts. I am learning lessons quickly in here, and have taken more than my fair share of grief, which did make for me being quite a defensive poster at times, and is quite distant from the reality of who I actually am in "real life TM".
I write long posts if I feel it is required like now, to try and address an issue I feel is worth it. It is my time, that I choose to proffer to this site, as I believe in that. If that is not welcome then fine, that is something I will happily take to another place.
And I am afraid those who moan about the other topics, just what exactly are you doing reading them? They are not in the main area, there are a myriad of coaster topics to indulge in, there are many topics I found offensive or not to my taste, but being aware that it is your own perception/life experience that creates your impression is a great start! Too easy to point the finger at people in here, because you have a different view on what is or isn't acceptable.
You have something unique here, perhaps all you need to do, is be a bit more clear about where the "debating chambers" are, and create something bespoke for it. You have a need, you have an audience, so make a venue! Supply/Demand.
You have a few members, putting in enormous efforts across many topics - the fact it gets a bit heated is natural, embrace it, be grateful for it, accept it is just representative of wider society, and if you don't like that bit - stay away.
That is my War & Peace for this subject.
Yet to be convinced that there isn't mutual respect between posters, just not necessairly their opinion. I respect people too much to not be honest when I think they're wrong.
This seems like a largely invented problem by people who simply don't enjoy those kinds of topics.
This seems like a largely invented problem by people who simply don't enjoy those kinds of topics.