Controversy

[Fredward]

:

k.

 

[Sam]

:

k.

Kinda undermines your point when you go on to just spam the forum.

 

[Wilsy]

I think that's enough now guys...

 

[Nick]

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k.

Kinda undermines your point when you go on to just spam the forum.

Does it? Really?

To be honest, people should be able to post their opinions without having to justify them to anyone. If they think that the country is becoming overpopulated, what's wrong with that? To quote Fredward, "But believe we are on the urge of over population." therefore implying it's an belief and not an assertion. His opinion could derive without evidence, he could have just noticed the amount of people walking around the town centre at a weekend. If that number had increased, and people had to queue for a long time to buy something- whereas, before they did not- could this not suggest that there is some overpopulation?

Even if it was an assertion, land space is not then only factor in determining overpopulation. There's plenty of space for all in the Sahara Desert, this is not an issue. However, there may be water and food shortages that may point to some kind of overpopulation.

Also, even if someone was against immigration, what's wrong with that? It's certainly not racist, as I'm sure people against immigration wouldn't be happy with well trained, white, British speaking Americans taking their jobs either.

The secondary damage is that it simply damages debate

I think he's made it perfectly clear that he doesn't want a debate.

 

[Sam]

Then why post in a debate topic? If you post completely spurious assertions in a topic, other people have a right to challenge them, especially when they are completely incorrect.

Why are facts and evidence viewed so poorly on this forum? It's almost like Fredward thinks he has some sort of right to post anything in a debate topic without it being challenged, and then moan about it when someone points out why it's wrong. When someone says something like 'we're on the edge of over-population' that is likely to contribute towards the national hostility towards people of other nationalities, it's not unreasonable to ask them to provide something to back it up.

 

[Nick]

Then why post in a debate topic?

Looking at the first sentence of the topic, it says "In a nutshell, do you believe immigration should be more limited than it is nowadays?". Fredward did this, and does not have to explain to anyone why this is true. The topic may not be a debate topic to everyone, it is an discussion forum.

especially when they are completely incorrect.

In your opinion. Now that is an assertion.

It's almost like Fredward thinks he has some sort of right to post anything in a debate topic without it being challenged

Wh can't he think this. Fair enough, he can be challenged, but he doesn't have to answer any questions.

and then moan about it when someone points out why it's wrong.

Again, your opinion. And another assertion. And his opinion can't possibly be wrong, because if he thinks it's right, then to him it's right.

 

[IanB]

I have to agree with Fredward, just posting something without any research or backing your facts up is fine, as long as it is in the spirit of a positive contribution.

If its wrong, or misinformed, so be it, but at least its contributing to the forum, instead of not posting anything, one of the things I do a lot, is write a post, and then delete it, because I don't have the time to check what I am saying is accurate, and get facts and figures from the internet to support it.

I have an opinion, based on my life experiences, and just want to post that, but all to often worry that the "serious" debaters will jump all over me, make fun of me, and leave me wishing I had not bothered. This is one of the reasons why I try and avoid posting in those threads.

If you want to have serious debates, with people who enjoy debating, why not sign up at http://www.ukdebate.co.uk/forums/ and you can debate away with like minded people who want to debate stuff. I am sure it will be a lot more fun and interesting, than the debates we have on here.

I always feel that any of these Controversial topics where people start debating things get messy really quickly, and always ended up been a shouting competition between two people.

I come here for the Theme Park content, and while off topic threads can be interesting, and people expressing their own opinions can be interesting to read and further enhance my opinion on that subject, I do not come here to debate with people, or try and convince people my views are correct.

Ian

 

[Adam]

Why are facts and evidence viewed so poorly on this forum?

I assume you have some facts/evidence that proves your theory that they are?

I don't view facts/stats/evidence poorly, and I'm 100% certain that 99% of the people on here feel the same. Thing is, this is a forum about theme parks, not parliament. While I certainly admire your abilities in debating, is it really necessary that one must back up every opinion they hold with a portfolio of facts? Fredward gave his opinion. You not only gave your counter opinion, but invited Fredward to debate. He declined. Why is this such a problem?

People only have one life, and if someone doesn't want to spend their life debating, who are you to say that they have to?

 

[DiogoJ42]

Most of those topics are not started with intention of creating a furious argument where members try to change other people's opinion. I think you'll find they are usually started simply to have something interesting to talk about over closed season.

Then why post in a debate topic?

Are they actually labled "This topic is for serious debate only. No fence sitting allowed."? Most of them are just called "The <insert subject name here> Topic".
There is a difference between posting "my thoughts on the matter are blah", and wanting to get drawn in to a full on debate. It could be that we respect your views and wish to leave it at that.... or it could be that we think you are such a raving loony that it's not worth the hassle of arguing with you.


I'm all for having a new sub-forum for "heated debates", with a clear set of rules and guidlines on how to behave. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, Sam, you'd be the ideal person to moderate such a sub-forum. You could get a little rubber stamp to slam on everyone's posts that says

Until we have such a forum though, there is no shame in just wanting to casually discuss a topic.

---

I do most of my forum surfing on my iPad. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is trying to copy and paste links between browser tabs on one of these things? In order to get that image url above, for example, I've had to first copy all this text in to the note pad, because most mobile browsers refresh the page when you switch between tabs due to a lack of memory. If I didn't do this first everything I've written so far would be gone when I return.
Then, I find the image with Google... except that with the tablet version of Google, you can't get a direct image link very easily. The quickest option was to ask Kelpie to find it on her laptop and send me the link via facebook!

So maybe sometimes the reason people don't post reams of evidence is that they are posting from a phone or tablet and getting so much as a link to wikipedia is too much of a ball ache.

 

[Nick]

I'm all for having a new sub-forum for "heated debates", with a clear set of rules and guidlines on how to behave. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, Sam, you'd be the ideal person to moderate such a sub-forum. You could get a little rubber stamp to slam on everyone's posts that says

Yes, this is what Meat Pie and I suggested in the Q & A Chat session last week. It would avoid problems like this much more.

 

[Craig]

I'd be interested to hear other member's views on some sort of debating forum. My concern would be that it would only be used by a relatively small number of people in comparison to the wider community. It's obvious from previous topics there's a small group of people who do enjoy serious debates, but is the market large enough to warrant a separate for it?

Referring to a point I made previously in this topic too - There seems to be times when such serious debate becomes a feature in other topics outside of Corner Coffee too. From feedback we've received this can be off putting to other members. So taking that into consideration and looking at the wider forum in addition to Corner Coffee, would an additional forum really serve to help the issue of all topics becoming heated or just spread the issue out further?

 

[TheMan]

You could get a little rubber stamp to slam on everyone's posts that says

I don't mind getting stuck into a meaty debate some times, others not so much, and I tend to respect others views and make posts with some idea as to how I reach this opinion (resulting in huge amounts of rib tickling at my expense), so I do appreciate this is a quite unique aspect to this forum and the serious debaters, and in truth, it is something that got me posting here rather than elsewhere.

However, that Diogo is another reason hahahaha!

I wont lose my edge in my posting style, and I think some here would do well to recognise how some of the more intense members actually really add to the true quality content as well. I don't put myself in that bracket, I am who I am and happy with that, like it or not.

I don't always agree with Sam, I don't always agree with how he words things either online, but having finally met the guy, and being constantly impressed by his informative threads on multiple coasters and attractions across the world, I think you need to accept he is as much a part of the forum furniture as anything or anyone else.

Maybe, the time is right for the regular members to accept Sam for who he is, perceived good and bad, and also to remember that within his threads (much the same with Meat) or debates - each point he makes, actually arises from a place of compassion... essentially, he cares enough to make the points.

Maybe people realise now I am not quite as hard line as they thought I was at first, I enjoy all areas of this place (serious debates included at times, and especially moaning about the f-ing hotel prices/service ;D), but it can be a bit easy to be so familiar with something, or the virtue of balance, and forget it's value.

Sam, much like me, can be an annoying fecker on here, personally I find the people who just constantly post some crappy sarcastic retort way more inane and annoying than anyone who actually cares enough to have proper opinions.

Rather passion than apathy any day.



I have to say though,
(EDIT I already said it, but that made me chuckle so left it in).

Referring to a point I made previously in this topic too - There seems to be times when such serious debate becomes a feature in other topics outside of Corner Coffee too. From feedback we've received this can be off putting to other members. So taking that into consideration and looking at the wider forum in addition to Corner Coffee, would an additional forum really serve to help the issue of all topics becoming heated or just spread the issue out further?

I myself suggested something along the lines of "The Chambers" (obviously you will need something Alton Based for it). The issue as I can predict, is that it is hard to have separate guidelines for no holds barred debate, and polite discussions. If done, it would have to be with the acceptance from all members that normal discussions in the thread will be toned down.

Personally, I simply learned quite quickly to tone down the language, and attenuate my thoughts a little - that doesn't mean things don't wind me up

MOOOOOOON ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMS!!!! SAVOY!!!!! KNIGHSBRIDGE!!!! *foams with rage*

Er yeah, so to finish this wall of text, more acceptance from all members or compromise, or stronger rules in separate areas done with the communities wider willing.

Good luck with that Craig ;D

 

[Adam]

I'd be interested to hear other member's views on some sort of debating forum

Personally, I'm all for it. As long as the moderation is much more lenient that in the majority of the forum.

 

[DiogoJ42]

I'd say if anything, the moderation needs to be stricter in such a forum. Gotta make sure every point is backed up with facts and presented calmly, without getting personal, after all.

 

[Fredward]

Thank you guys! I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this way, and it has generally emphasised the community part of the forum!

I think perhaps a sub forum of corner coffee for heated debates may be useful. But not necessary, I don't mind debates, and on occasion like to read through them (or more accurately skim through), but if I do want to throw my two cents in, I don't want to be forced to elaborate, expand and produce sources on a theme park forums.. (unless ofcourse i'm making wild accusations that my mums, dads, uncles, dog works for Gerstlauer.. then perhaps sources may be useful..)


EDIT: Just read through your post TheMan, and I'm not telling people to change there posting styles. but just to make people aware not everyone wants a discussion like that, I enjoy reading through your posts, but if i'm not in the mood for reading long articles I won't.

But Sam just got on my nerves because he was essentially not respecting my more casual posting style, I don't want to back up my posts with stats and anecdotes.

As I said, I view the forum as a casual discussion place, like the casual discussion you have in a pub (Tavern for when you get really sloshed!) I personally don't want to write all my posts like a university essay, but that's not to stop people who do want to.

Hmmm I'm not sure a sub forum is a good idea as most debates do stem from casual conversation, the only issue, like in a pub, when two mates start going at it, the rest of the party tends to disband to continue conversation elsewhere.

Perhaps a sub forum called "DEBATE BATTLE PIT" essentially once a debate starts, send it to the "pit" so it doesn't put of other people who want to discuss the topic but not get into a debate.

 

[CGM]

My concern with a "Dedicated Debate Pit" is that a good debate does not mean being at each other's throats all the time as some seem to think, that's just an argument. In other words, a proper debate should be more than suitable for the cafe if done properly. Perhaps some sort of specific debate guidelines should be introduced? Some of the responses in debate topics verge on being a bit too personal I find.

A dedicated debate forum may send the message that the gloves are off and you can be as vicious as you like even if that's not the intention. It would be a forum of topics too serious for the tavern and too angry or controversial for the Cafe leaving a forum with a lot of extremely heated posts and a clique of seasoned debating fiends which could create a pretty downbeat, intimidating environment particularly for new users.

 

[Noonie99]

Personally I have read through all the comments from people on here and I think Fredward is right. At the end of the day conversation no matter what topic will always bring a difference in opinion. No two people are the same, and I think people need to realise that some subjects will bring strong views from some people. I made the decision to not comment anymore on the "I feel down" topic, because quite frankly when I did post a very geniuine response I basically got shot down and sections of my post quoted to respond very bluntly to. So I thought forget it, no thank you but just basically told to shut up and I know nothing.??
I will say again, I joined this forum to talk about Alton Towers and I supect I will get shot down by someone for commenting here.
I love a good debate, how do we ever expect to learn or grow if we dont hear others thoughts?
We are all stressed with life, work, whatever else, so its good to have somewhere to vent, talk, speak about things that maybe we wouldn't on a normal every day.
Certain people need to chill I think, and maybe realise that life isn't just one persons opinion.

 

[James]

Why are facts and evidence viewed so poorly on this forum?

I've always questioned the legitimacy of facts and 'evidence' - especially 'nation' wide surveys, which are usually limited to a certain criteria of people or numbers of people. But that opens up a whole can of worms on debating the legitimacy of evidence.

I don't think facts and evidence is key to a debate. If you wish to support your argument with evidence that is perfectly acceptable and it may strengthen your argument too (in academics it's pivotal to writing anything, but in real life the rules do not stick to this). However I believe opinions are fine as well, and most people hold general knowledge which goes into a lot of use.

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The key problem I find is that debates on here are done by the same people. Then you have people that sometimes jump in but get ignored because two/three members are shouting at each other. Then you have people who are too scared to get involved without being rudely spoken to.

The last two sets of people should not be treated or feel like this, they should feel like they are welcome to post in these topics, get involved and enjoy it.

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In my opinion, a dedicated debate forum would just not work - not now at least.

From what I've seen with this community on here and back on TowersTimes (when 'this' group formed the main community on there) debates tend to come and go. There are times of the year when we have a huge influx of debates, this is usually at a time where politics or sensitive topics are in big talks in the world. Then there are other times of the year when you have just one debate, and then other times of the year with nothing whatsoever.

At the present time, I don't think the forum suffers with that many debates to warrant a debating forum being made. If the forums ever got to a point where you had all debate topics dominating a page and nothing else on there then yes, I think it would be best to consider a debating forum.

Another thing that would be a problem with a debating forum is the general attitude of members on here in debates. Nearly all debates here result in insulting one another, people shouting at each other - generally debates get extremely heated to a point where it's uncomfortable and people are at each other's throats. A debating forum I think would only make this worse and would leave the team with a very difficult job of having to manage this (I'd dread to think of how many posts would be reported).

I agree with CGM that some form of guidelines should be introduced. I know the whole thing when creating this site was not to be too heavy with rules here and there, but some light guidelines would be good to see.

I know again this contradicts the site ethics in some ways - but I think people who constantly insult others and do not listen to team warnings should be put on moderation. Without mentioning names, apart from one member who has recently disappeared I still think there are one or two members who have been getting away with insulting others for years now without any action (in the public light) taken against them.

 

[Harv]

I feel partially responsible for these disagreements, especially considering that I set up the topics in the first place. Therefore, I also feel that I should have a say on all of this and explain myself.

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I create the topics knowing that there will be disagreement. That's why I create them. There's no point making an abortion topic if everybody is going to be pro-abortion, right? That's where the discussion comes in. Ideas conflict, perspectives are opened and users here get to see other users open up and, essentially, bond a little. It's communal, not segregative. Theoretically.

What inevitably happens though, is that the discussion derails. Usually, a more forceful member will see something that they disagree with. They pick at the post, hoping to read more into it than they possibly should. And then retaliation occurs. And so forth up until intervention is taken and everyone abandons the topic.

It really is a shame. I don't mean to construct arguments; I mean to construct heated debate, where witty counter-arguments are used instead of personal insults. Instead of picking posts to pieces and treading on a badly worded phrase, I'd rather see questions pointed to make users question their own beliefs... Debates are wonderful stimulation for the mind and forums are the perfect place for them to occur. Here, we have a position where we can take time to consider our points, and directly quote and refer to others. Let's not waste this by upsetting those who monitor the forum - it is their job, after all, to ensure that everybody has the best experience possible on the forum and this won't happen if personal insults and humiliating jibes are being tossed around.

Come on guys, this is an intelligent forum - some of the posts in the debate topics just go to prove that. Let's all strive to achieve a situation where we can all express ourselves freely and maintain a healthy level of opinion.

 

[Sam]

It worries me that people are allowed to post slanderous things about immigrants and foreigners, and then act like the idea of having to back up their bile with anything intelligent at all is personally offensive to them.