Controversy

[Jem8472]

I have used the flag post button a few times its handy when people have been posting insulting and offensive topics.

I don't see it as grassing. There are ways that members are expected to behave and it can be surprising how many times some members just behave and post in unacceptable ways. I am surprised some people have not had forums bans yet because they don't seem to get the message of not insulting or being offensive towards other members.

Also the debating topics I think tend to be pointless as the members that often get involved in these types of topics have 100% belief in their views and no matter what you put forward they will not change their view or even see you point of view!

 

[Dar]

I think the problems arise when people can't accept that some people have a different opinion. It's all well and good telling someone you think they are wrong, but if someone then says they still feel that way, trying to force another opinion on them is when I think problems occur.

 

[TheMan]

We want the diversity but to keep it there needs to be a little respect for each other even if people disagree and respect for the forum in helping the team see what needs to be seen.

This is why I think it will be beneficial to embrace the diversity of posts and depth of feeling, and perhaps create a dedicated area for the more controversial. Corner coffee doesn't feel appropriate, and Courtyard comes across as a place for daftness and risque humour.

Also, a key point is the present state of affairs globally. Being broadly representative of society, at a time where there are many controversial issues affecting everyone, it is natural friends will get involved in heated discussions about this.

This forum is unique, I have said right from the start it can be hard for new members to integrate, I don't believe hitting the forum with a hammer will help do anything other than sanitise it. I think that would be a shame.

Many people would pay good money to have a forum and community as active as this one, a forum is nothing without it - simply another corner of the web.

To me at least, it seems odd that passionate debate (all be it, misplaced at times admittedly) should be stifled in any way. I do think that there are not clearly enough defined boundaries about where and how this takes place.

Ring fence the normal topics as a place for calm, reasoned opinions and discussion, and be extra welcoming and encouraging of new members - then offer very clearly defined places where heated passionate discussions can take place.

You have a core of members who enjoy getting stuck in, create a place to do it with an understanding and clear rule that it does not leak, in that style, into the main friendly discussion areas.

That would be my solution, seems obvious to me. However I also respect it isn't my forum, and I am still a relative noob lol! ;D

Just again to reiterate though, a little more comprehension from everyone, that sentiment is not easily communicated in text alone with no context, and it should balance out more too.

 

[Meat Pie]

So.. You guys think there's no point talking about anything you disagree about because you will never reach a consensus?

Maybe you just don't appreciate that some people enjoy discussions.

Discussions are about hearing different angles, posing your own suggestions, addressing points that the opposing poster raises. In many ways it's like a sport. You don't hear people saying why do people play football, if you don't always win?

The value of discussions are both in personal enjoyment of the participants and opening up subjects to be seen from a different position, that you may or may not be convinced by, but there's still value in talking about why we hold the values that we do, and challenging each other on that. Can't really think of anything more important to talk about and consider than the latter point.

 

[Dave]

The issue comes when people are rude, whether that's using insulting terms or aggressive language. Opposing opinions are not the issue without those it would be a boring debate and quite short.

 

[Craig]

As others have said, it's not just the controversial topics though. There's been a few occasions where this sort of posting style has found it's way onto the Alton Towers topics for example.

For me personally, I don't find it too much to ask for people to have a read of their posts and ask themselves if it comes across as respectful and reasoned for all. I understand some of those who debate with each other regularly may not take offence, and indeed maybe there is a mutual respect - but I don't think that sort of posting style should be accepted if others feel pushed away because of it.

There are some great points made by everyone on this forum, I just think a bit more consideration by everyone would go a long way to avoiding topics turning into a back and forth conversation with a few people, as opposed to everyone feeling as though they can contribute their views .

 

[Jem8472]

I am sure people enjoy it and find it fun, but when you comment in a topic and all you get back is a load of abuse or a condescending comment about how you should go away because you are stupid its hardly a good way to have open and useful discussions.

 

[TheMan]

I am sure people enjoy it and find it fun, but when you comment in a topic and all you get back is a load of abuse or a condescending comment about how you should go away because you are stupid its hardly a good way to have open and useful discussions.

That isn't debating I agree, I always say the first sign of a man beaten is resorting to insults. I do try to stay well clear of this, regardless of how vociferous I may get within a debate itself.

As others have said, it's not just the controversial topics though. There's been a few occasions where this sort of posting style has found it's way onto the Alton Towers topics for example.

Clearer, and more defined guidelines are needed to run what is essentially two styles of forum in tandem - which you do.

I posted how I found it extremely difficult to integrate initially, and was quite shocked at how quick you can get jumped upon leading me to a very defensive posting style initially.

I learn quickly, and happy to roll my sleeves up and get stuck in once I knew what I was dealing with. Craig here though has a point, it is something you do not expect, and can put off new posters and members.

I get it now, and love it, but when I first joined I didn't and it took me by surprise. My attitude was, I am here and posting, I am grabbing myself a chair so shuffle over and make room. This doesn't mean though, that I believe enough heed is payed to how quieter members may feel, and I can be a tasty debater! ;D

Nom Nom!

 

[Dar]

So.. You guys think there's no point talking about anything you disagree about because you will never reach a consensus?

Maybe you just don't appreciate that some people enjoy discussions.

Discussions are about hearing different angles, posing your own suggestions, addressing points that the opposing poster raises. In many ways it's like a sport. You don't hear people saying why do people play football, if you don't always win?

The value of discussions are both in personal enjoyment of the participants and opening up subjects to be seen from a different position, that you may or may not be convinced by, but there's still value in talking about why we hold the values that we do, and challenging each other on that. Can't really think of anything more important to talk about and consider than the latter point.

I simply mean that there comes a point that it is obvious that a consensus won't be reached. Rather than move the discussion on, it seems that sometimes these discussions just go round and round in circles and, I think, this can be what makes people resort to bad practices.

 

[BigT]

To me there is no problem with people disagreeing with me, Jesus virtually everyone on this forum has a far more social outlook than I do, I believe in freedom to make your own way the harder you work the more reward you should gain.

It also should be noted that that view is also the majority position in the country on the whole, look at the circulation of the so called right wing press versus the so called left.
I enjoy reading opposing views and occasionally I learn something, I'd also like to think that maybe something I said made people more aware of opposing views.
I have no problem people attacking posts calling the ideas stupid etc, and then writing out a thoughtful reply, what I do have a problem with is being called something personally, whether joking or not.

The reason I brought this topic back to life is because I'll be honest I wasn't intending posting again on here after last weeks warning which I felt was unjustified in the circumstances.
I couldn't be bothered puting the effort in to make sensible replys when most of what I was getting back was garbage, so I had a little fun and everyone took it as gospel.
Anyway I came back to make a post on something I thought I could have a debate about and what do I get, the next post from a certain person comparing me to someone I've never heard of but I'm sure there proberbly some nazi of some sort, how does that move the discussion on?
Then I get accused of being a monster raving loony and you mustn't debate with me as its pointless because I don't hold the same view! How is that supposed to help the discussion?

I feel I've moved on with a lot of members on here and even though I don't agree with there view points very oftern I have a lot of respect for them, but I won't continually take insults comparing me to and trying to make me out to be some right wing looney.
Yes I use emotive words because that tends to bring out a stronger counter argument, if you don't like some of the language then point it out politely and say "you know Big T you've gone too far please don't say that again" and I won't if it's really that offensive.

At the end of the day I don't have to spend my time on here, I choose to. The debates would be boring without me that's for sure.
If you don't want me here just say so and I'll go.

 

[Simon]

Can I just say that if the team decide to remove off-topic forums, I won't have a home?

 

[Dave]

Can I just say that if the team decide to remove off-topic forums, I won't have a home?

For you we will ensure the football topic remains.... we know how much you love it!

 

[BigDave]

I also think that with this being a online forum, its hard to understand whether what was said was meant as a joke or in a funny way or not and therefore people can often feel hurt or get angry, even if something is meant to be funny. i think its best to look at your post before you click post and think, will this post be seen the way I intended it to. If not, then change it

 

[TheMan]

I also think that with this being a online forum, its hard to understand whether what was said was meant as a joke or in a funny way or not and therefore people can often feel hurt or get angry, even if something is meant to be funny. i think its best to look at your post before you click post and think, will this post be seen the way I intended it to. If not, then change it

Absolutely, especially in more sensitive topics, just being a bit aware of your sentiment and intention, and going a little bit further to ensure that is known. I am doing this a bit more now, and getting ribbed for it, but its funny. However you have to learn text does not convey emotional feeling and sentiment/intention.

It really is our job as posters, to ensure we make our points eloquently and well explained. Nothing works perfectly like that online, but as a whole community this could be implemented for the good of the site and out of respect for each other.

I am certainly attempting it, though no doubt will royally balls it up at some point ha-ha!!

 

[Sam]

I see both sides of the argument, But believe we are on the urge of over population. So think it's right to have strict immigration laws.

I presume you mean 'edge'. But you need something to back up this 'edge of over-population' claim. It's not really good enough to say that you 'believe' it. Facts, sources please. Why are we on the edge of over-population?

There's much unused brown-field sites in our cities, and we can always build taller like they do in other countries. Deprived and miserable little towns like Rotherham or Doncaster could become transformed by a big population boost. More people means more demand for better services, better transport, more entertainment options.

If you have lost a job because a immigrant will work harder for less money, you will feel spite towards them. They did sort of take your job, regardless of whether or not it's more financial viable...

They can only work so long (working time directive) and for so little (minimum wage). And jobs can't fire you without a good reason - the tribunal system and all that. If you lose your job to an immigrant, it's most likely because you weren't very good at your job.

Since my other post got deleted. I'll post exactly the same thing but with more words.

No I'm not going to produce evidence Sam, I'm writing a forum post, not a university essay, I'm not going to go and do some research for a comment in a general topic on a rollercoaster forum...

How is it possible to have good debate when evidence, sources, facts and intelligence are held in such contempt?

 

[Fredward]

Don't know Sam. Ask whoever's comment that is and consult their reply.

 

[Sam]

Don't know Sam. Ask whoever's comment that is and consult their reply.

I already did, and you replied like it was an absurd suggestion that I ask you to provide anything at all to back-up your wildly speculative assertions.

 

[John]

Not everyone who wants to express their opinion in that sort of topic wants to get drawn in to the sort of heated, aggressive debate they inevitably descend into.

It's far easier to simply post an opinion as just that - an opinion - than try to construct a rigorous water tight argument and face the judgement of those who disagree.

 

[Fredward]

Don't know Sam. Ask whoever's comment that is and consult their reply.

I already did, and you replied like it was an absurd suggestion that I ask you to provide anything at all to back-up your wildly speculative assertions.

No... I expressed how I didn't want to engage in a debate with you... along with some sarcasm, it is an absurd suggestion to expect someone to take their time and effort just to please your debate hunger, when quite frankly, they don't want to.

This is a discussion forum not a debate forum. Forcing people to engage in debate makes their forum experience rather irritating, it's one thing which makes this forum worse then others. There's some members in this forum which expect everyone to write essays to explain every point.

If I was having the same discussion with you in a pub. I would not go get a encyclopaedia to check every bit information, we will have a discussion that will flow from person to person, I say something, you correct me, if I disagree with said correction, the discussion continues. (preferably without condescending remarks, which you seem very good at subtly hiding in your rather pretentious rants).

A good forum should not require everyone on said forum to have the knowledge of Wikipedia just to please 3 or 4 members.

Sorry if any of this offends you, but your post has been the straw to break the camels back. I personally do not want to go onto a forum just to be bombarded with requests for facts, figures. It does not mean I have less intelligence then you.

 

[Sam]

Saying 'we are on the edge of over-population' isn't really an opinion - it's an assertion of fact. 'I don't like immigrants' is an opinion. 'We are on the edge of over-population' is an assertion of fact. A fact that is clearly shown to be a load of crap if you spend about 30 seconds researching it.

Unresearched and speculative assertions like this on a national scale (through the Daily Mail and the Express) are doing real damage - stoking up racism and hatred towards migrants. The secondary damage is that it simply damages debate, if people can just throw around speculation like that. I think immigrants are the cause of 89% of all crime! Have I done any research? Of course not!