Crime and Punishment

[Martin]

What the hell is that about?

It's called sarcasm, you might have heard of it.

No it is not its called trying to be a clever dick, something your very good at.

As usual you come on here and try and put people down, the same as on all the other threads.
My first post in coffee corner for a while and I might add a friendly one and your straight on trying to score points, well done Sam, well done.

Unpleasant views without evidence to back it up, such as advocating torture and murder, does tend to make people respond in an unpleasant way.

The murder rate in the US is 6 times that of Britain and 5 times that of Australia. Texas has twice the murder rate of Wisconsin, a state that doesn't have the death penalty.

That's not evidence, its circumstance at best. I'm sure if I looked hard enough I could find statistics to show other countries with the death penalty that have a lower rate of murders than the UK.
There maybe evidence I don't know that's why I asked for it to be shown, not statistical garbage.

What ore do you want? You're like those fundamentalists who ask for evidence for evolution and then say the evidence is worthless. Circumstantial would be maybe twice as low, but five and six times? Doubt it.

But really, shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't the burden of proof be on those claiming capital punishment is a deterrent to prove it works as a means to prevent crime?

 

[BigT]

I think you've missed my point Blaze, statistics can be used and manipulated to try and back up an argument.
The point I'm making is I haven't a clue whether the death penalty works as a deterrent or not and neither have you or anyone else, its impossible to measure.
It would stop me killing someone more than a life sentence and that's all you can go on really.

Can we stop this nastiness towards anyone showing any other views please as its not pretty.
And I don't recall advocating torture or murder, but paedophiles (however you bloody well spell it) should be made to suffer.

Unless that is of course your condoning there actions and think they should be allowed back out to abuse small children.

 

[Martin]

I think you've missed my point Blaze, statistics can be used and manipulated to try and back up an argument.
The point I'm making is I haven't a clue whether the death penalty works as a deterrent or not and neither have you or anyone else, its impossible to measure.
It would stop me killing someone more than a life sentence and that's all you can go on really.

Actually I do. Of course statistics can lie. But these statistics do not lie. Places where they still use Medieval methods of 'justice' have higher murder rates than places that don't. The examples I gave aren't exceptions, and you're welcome to go investigate further. As ever, Google is your friend.

Can we stop this nastiness towards anyone showing any other views please as its not pretty.

It's not nastiness, it's simply picking apart an argument we don't agree with because there wasn't anything but opinion to back it up. As I said, the burden of proof lies on advocates of capital punishment to prove it works.

And I don't recall advocating torture or murder, but paedophiles (however you bloody well spell it) should be made to suffer.

Oh?

Unless that is of course your condoning there actions and think they should be allowed back out to abuse small children.

Aha yes, I was waiting for that! "You're either with us or with them". Erm, no. People who sexually abuse children are dangerous and mentally ill. They need to be kept away from society. Killing them solves nothing that locking them up and throwing away the key doesn't. In America, executions are considerably more expensive than life imprisonment, so there isn't even an argument from economics, not that economics should ever be seen as more important than life anyway.

Without wishing to be rude, support for the death penalty is either ignorant or stupid. I wouldn't want to think of you as stupid, so I can only assume you don't know enough about the issue to realise. This may be a good place to start http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/

 

[adsyrah]

BigT - you're completely misunderstanding some of the views being posted by me and some other members on here.

Not wanting to cause suffering to a criminal is in no way the same as condoning their actions.

There may be an element of self-righteousness about this, but I don't want to show the same lack of humanity towards a human being that appears to have no humanity themselves. It reeks of hypocrisy by lowering myself to their level. Yes they should be punished, but not by taking of their life or by being hurt. Contained, watched and (if possible) rehabilitated is my preference.

To coin an old phrase:

The true test of society is how well it treats its prisoners and old people

(edited for spelling mistake)

 

[Sam]

Unless that is of course your condoning there actions and think they should be allowed back out to abuse small children.

To imply that anybody in this topic supports the abuse of children because they don't agree with your barbaric views on the death penalty is disgusting.

 

[Poisson]

Anybody that supports the abuse of children is disgusting.

Fixed it for ya

 

[BigT]

BigT - you're completely misunderstanding some of the views being posted by me and some other members on here.

Not wanting to cause suffering to a criminal is in no way the same as condoning their actions.

There may be an element of self-righteousness about this, but I don't want to show the same lack of humanity towards a human being that appears to have no humanity themselves. It reeks of hypocrisy by lowering myself to their level. Yes they should be punished, but not by taking of their life or by being hurt. Contained, watched and (if possible) rehabilited is my preference.

To coin an old phrase:

The true test of society is how well it treats its prisoners and old people

You make a very good point here but I will just make one slight comment, the UK treats prisoners better than it does it's old people and I think that should be the other way around. I hope we all agree on that.

 

[Sam]

You make a very good point here but I will just make one slight comment, the UK treats prisoners better than it does it's old people and I think that should be the other way around. I hope we all agree on that.

We don't all agree on that, because it's demonstrably a load of rubbish. It's trivial whether prisoners have a television or not, or how comfy their mattresses are. By far and away the greatest possession you lose when you go to prison is your freedom.

That's not to say that old people are treated fantastically in this country, that's another debate. But as far as I know, old people in Britain aren't locked up and securely contained behind 10ft walls with barbed wire on top. They are free to see their family and friends, or vote, or drive, or earn a living. To seriously suggest that old people have worse living conditions than prisoners locked up in cells is to enter a fantasy land of your own invention.

 

[Tom]

The UK treats prisoners better than it does it's old people and I think that should be the other way around. I hope we all agree on that.

That quote sounds like it's been lifted straight out of the Daily Star. Prison effectively removes people from society as punishment, that is its primary purpose.

I'm not sure you're capable of debating issues with political tones on here without knee-jerk overreactions. I seem to recall a thread from you stating you wouldn't get involved in such topics any more because of what you considered to be snobbery and hostility towards you. You misinterpret disagreements as personal insults and then react in a disproportionate way, in my opinion.

While of course you are allowed to air them, you have to accept that a lot of your views are considerably controversial and will trigger many fair challenges.

 

[BigT]

My views are controversial now I've heard it all, I really am lost for words.
I don't know what to say except I think you will find my views represent the vast majority of people who live in the UK.
We might be stupid and ignorant to the very small minded few on here (and I don't mean everyone on here before you start crying) but you know who you are.

Back on topic if the government had the bottle to hold a referendum on the death penalty then you would be seeing the likes of Huntley swinging on the end of a rope.
But they haven't the bottle to call one because they know they will loose it, don't take my word for it have a look on that well known right wing resource the BBC.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14402195

Well I guess it's not just me that thinks peddo's should swing then.

 

[John]

The whole point of having a goverment is for them to make decisions ob behalf of the population as a whole. I am always uneasy with the idea of national refferenda as I wouldn't trust the "Great British public" with a decision any more important than the winner of the latest TV talent show.

 

[Cariba]

I don't know what to say except I think you will find my views represent the vast majority of people who live in the UK.
We might be stupid and ignorant to the very small minded few on here (and I don't mean everyone on here before you start crying) but you know who you are.

I think you've missed my point Blaze, statistics can be used and manipulated to try and back up an argument.

So you have now tried to use statistics to try to back up your argument, despite arguing against this earlier.
As for the article you quoted, the petition mentioned did not get anywhere near enough signatures, and the opinion polls don't suggest a clear majority (51%). What people say in an opinion poll is also a very different matter to what they would vote for in a referendum.

 

[Jonathan]

As I believe I have stated before, no sane government would ever bring back the death penalty. There are various international protocols in place in the UK that would prevent it from ever happening. In reference to public support for the death penalty, I remember that an article from The S*n (I am loathe to type its proper name) stated that 99% of the British public wanted the death penalty back. I fail to believe that for one reason. The S*n is the most popular newspaper in the UK, and prints (in my opinion) articles that just scaremonger and brainwash its readers into knee-jerk reactions about anything. I suspect that this 'survey' was done solely amongst readers of this newspaper in order to gain a grossly biased result. I know of very few people who would actually want executions to resume in this country. Not even my grandparents, who were alive when the last executions in England happened in 1964, want it brought back.

And what if someone who's innocent is executed? I refer you to the unfortunate story of Timothy Evans, who was wrongly executed for murder back in the 1950s. He was granted a posthumous pardon in 1966, and the real murderer (John Reginald Halliday Christie), was executed in 1953. (Christie owned the flat, and Evans was renting it at the time, from what my research tells me.) "Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer." Blackstone's formulation is so very prominent here. Even if a person is found guilty, there is a small chance that they may be innocent, and to execute innocent people is just wrong. Then there are incidents when executions go wrong, and there are too many of these to recall specific cases, but lethal injection is one which is quite prominent, in that it can take a considerable amount of time for a vein to be found in the condemned person, and this time could be considered as torture, due to having needles poked into arms. In some cases, inmates have had to help the execution team find veins for the needles to go into.

 

[Sam]

Back on topic if the government had the bottle to hold a referendum on the death penalty then you would be seeing the likes of Huntley swinging on the end of a rope.

You make it sound like that's an indisputable desire for all of us. Murdering Huntley won't bring those two children back to life. Most of us think that two people dying was horrific enough, without killing a third as well.

It's deeply disturbing that you want to see a third person die in that awful story.

As Cariba pointed out, you've misused statistics, and you've started bizarre and spurious side-arguments (about old people being treated worse than prisoners) and then dropped the arguement completely when it was proved to be a load of crap. Please learn to debate properly.

 

[BigT]

You know when I come on here I sometimes feel like I've landed in the land of zod.
Please learn to debate properly WTF. Are you imature Sam because you behave like it.
FYI I didn't start the piece on grandmas I just gave my observation, if you feel that is incorrect then ok, but please don't insult me.
You ask for evidence, I give it to you and you still don't read it correctly, 74% if I remember right said they would support the death penalty for child killers and this is not a sun poll, it's youguv I believe which is used by your favorate paper the Guardian.
Just face facts your in as much of a minority on this as every other issue you debate, doesn't make you a bad person and there's nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe but please LEAVE ME ALONE or I might get angry.

 

[Harv]

/\ You wouldn't like me when I'm angry No, but seriously, it's interesting to see how sickened some people are at the concept of capital punishment and how enthusiastic others are. The death penalty is worth debating, but what are your opinions on less severe punishments? Not torture, etc. But do you believe that kids should be smacked if they do wrong in the hope that the punishment helps them avoid trouble later in life, and possibly lower crime?

 

[BigT]

/\ You wouldn't like me when I'm angry No, but seriously, it's interesting to see how sickened some people are at the concept of capital punishment and how enthusiastic others are. The death penalty is worth debating, but what are your opinions on less severe punishments? Not torture, etc. But do you believe that kids should be smacked if they do wrong in the hope that the punishment helps them avoid trouble later in life, and possibly lower crime?

Ha ha very true not nice when I'm angry.

Now I'm not a fan of beating children but I got a smack now and then off the old man and it didn't do me any harm.
I was actually smacked and caned at school when I was young (showing my age now) and I proberbly deserved it TBH as it won't surprise you to say I was a bit of a clown.
I think a direct link can be drawn from the day it was abolished as I saw the start of the deterioration when it was banned when I was about 13.
It would be very hard to go back now though as the kids are bigger and the teachers are a bit soft so I can't see it coming back but if it had continued then I don't think we would have half the trouble we do now.

 

[Sam]

FYI I didn't start the piece on grandmas I just gave my observation, if you feel that is incorrect then ok, but please don't insult me.

You were the first person to bring up the link between prisoner welfare and elderly welfare.

You ask for evidence, I give it to you and you still don't read it correctly, 74% if I remember right said they would support the death penalty for child killers and this is not a sun poll, it's youguv I believe which is used by your favorate paper the Guardian.

It doesn't mention child killers, 74% is the number of people in favour of the death penalty for some murders "depending on the circumstances". No child killers mentioned. This is according to one 2010 YouGov poll. Other polls on this page put the figure for supporters of the death penalty for child killers much lower, variously at 62%, 67% and 70%. It's also falling fast. Support for the death penalty has been dropping worldwide for decades, including in the UK, where support is the lowest it's ever been. It's a backwards idea that doesn't belong in the 21st century.

Just face facts your in as much of a minority on this as every other issue you debate, doesn't make you a bad person and there's nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe but please LEAVE ME ALONE or I might get angry.

Alright Bruce Banner, if you want people to LEAVE YOU ALONE then don't post in the thread. You're more than welcome to post you Victorian views, and people are totally within their rights to challenge them.

 

[Rupert]

I normally hate to do this, but I shall answer this particular (farcical) debate with a video appearance from a man who I believe nails the fundamental problem, followed in the last couple of seconds with another sentiment I believe - killing someone for killing another is revenge, not justice. But what an immoral, dangerous precedent it would set to reintroduce it (not that it would ever happen). I agree with all of the previous points made in this topic against it, and find it staggering it's still being debated.

In a way I would like one of these referendums to happen, just so it can be defeated once and for all. But then you run the risk of morons like the EDL etc. (yes, I'm generalising, and don't really care) actually forcing it through. Kind of like holding a referendum on EU membership really.

Anyway:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es9XrKTTc_4[/youtube]

 

[Cariba]

Sam posted largely facts from sources you've used, and that makes him wrong?

Only one other country in Europe actively retains the death penalty; Belarus, a barely democratic, quasi Soviet, isolated state ruled by the same man since 1994. What a brilliant role model for Britain. The death penalty is morally wrong and if we're going to use the eye-for-an-eye justice model, let's start cutting thief's hands off as well shall we?

The people who we elect to make decisions on our behalf consistently vote against the death penalty, and elections and votes have far more sway than opinion polls which poll between 1000 and 3000 people, less than 0.5% of the country.

And as for your fall-back argument of us all being left-wing buffoons who read the Guardian and are in every minority, it's ridiculous. For what it's worth, I read the Telegraph.