Cross Valley Coaster

[QTXAdsy]

A note from Squiggs: I've split this thread out of the Nemesis retrack discussion. So feel free to discuss the Cross Valley Coaster (either the 2003 or later iterations and offshoots) here.

Had to bring this topic back to life regarding the topic of Nemesis having the track filled with sand and the roar being reduced, I have been thinking about something how this could be part of certain future developments. We all know that Towers didn't need to get permission to do this but did it anyone to get the local's good side regarding the noise and from I can see it has gone rather well probably trying to point out about the sand in the track and how it reduces the noise though I'm unsure if they are aware that the other rides on park have been filled with sand. Got me thinking...could the possible loss of the Nemesis roar be the catalysis that finally gives us the Cross Valley Coaster? Now before you say anything, I know, it sounds like one hell of a longshot but listen, the fact that Towers have been making efforts to show the local community about their best efforts in reducing noise levels and that they have mentioned that this is for future developments for the park, maybe the ultimate endgame from this in the very best case scenario is the Cross Valley coaster a couple of years down the line?

I know you'll point out that that the valley is protected and that they couldn't even build anything in it though given if you remember in that future plans for the park that the valley was still pointed out as a proposed location for an attraction of some kind even years after the first failed attempt does seem to think that Towers/Merlin might point out otherwise given how much details went into the original plans for the area. Though even if they could build something there, it was the noise issue that many locals were up in arms about and honestly given the fact it would have been a loud woody, probably far louder than Nemesis' roar when you think about the sound corridor in that area. If noise was really what killed it for good then perhaps I can see their point of view. However given now we have Nemesis being filled with sand which would, at least to the locals, please them and get on their good side which honestly no one should underestimate just how important that might be for other things to follow for the park.

Ofc, it all depends on the retracking being a total success for all concerned which combined with (hopefully) new strong goodwill with the locals and even with the local council, Towers might even just have enough clout to get the nod to have the Cross Valley coaster taken off the shelve and brought back to life though I strongly suspect that it will not be the giant all pure wooden coaster as before, not because now Towers already have one but rather that a woody would still have a lot of noise and I honestly can't imagine those huge drops being surrounded by those sound tunnels being built which would be rather ridiculously, possible either a all steal or maybe (my personal favourite IMO for the valley) a RMC woody with its metal track filled with sand but even then this is just some wild speculation which many of you won't even care about or have just given up on the concept of a giant coaster in that valley but I just had to get it out there.

I'm sorry of going off topic from Nemesis but I can't help but feel that this retracking job could really be a pawn for much bigger things to follow for the park and that does possibly opens the door again for the cross valley coaster and let's face it, many old ideas for Towers never really die, they are put on the shelf for a future date and find their one making the light of day such as the double lift hill for SW1 eventually ending up on Smiler, the long awaited wooden coaster finally being built and even to some extent the Steampunk Port Discovery concept would in some ways find its way to life in the form of the Moon Voyage Room for the hotel; who is to say that we won't see some sort of coaster crossing the valley in one shape or the other many years down the line? So yeah, rambled on a bit but maybe the negative of Nemesis' iconic roar being muted might be a positive for that monster of a ride to finally appear? Give or take what you think of that.

 

[Matt N]

Had to bring this topic back to life regarding the topic of Nemesis having the track filled with sand and the roar being reduced, I have been thinking about something how this could be part of certain future developments. We all know that Towers didn't need to get permission to do this but did it anyone to get the local's good side regarding the noise and from I can see it has gone rather well probably trying to point out about the sand in the track and how it reduces the noise though I'm unsure if they are aware that the other rides on park have been filled with sand. Got me thinking...could the possible loss of the Nemesis roar be the catalysis that finally gives us the Cross Valley Coaster? Now before you say anything, I know, it sounds like one hell of a longshot but listen, the fact that Towers have been making efforts to show the local community about their best efforts in reducing noise levels and that they have mentioned that this is for future developments for the park, maybe the ultimate endgame from this in the very best case scenario is the Cross Valley coaster a couple of years down the line?

I know you'll point out that that the valley is protected and that they couldn't even build anything in it though given if you remember in that future plans for the park that the valley was still pointed out as a proposed location for an attraction of some kind even years after the first failed attempt does seem to think that Towers/Merlin might point out otherwise given how much details went into the original plans for the area. Though even if they could build something there, it was the noise issue that many locals were up in arms about and honestly given the fact it would have been a loud woody, probably far louder than Nemesis' roar when you think about the sound corridor in that area. If noise was really what killed it for good then perhaps I can see their point of view. However given now we have Nemesis being filled with sand which would, at least to the locals, please them and get on their good side which honestly no one should underestimate just how important that might be for other things to follow for the park.

Ofc, it all depends on the retracking being a total success for all concerned which combined with (hopefully) new strong goodwill with the locals and even with the local council, Towers might even just have enough clout to get the nod to have the Cross Valley coaster taken off the shelve and brought back to life though I strongly suspect that it will not be the giant all pure wooden coaster as before, not because now Towers already have one but rather that a woody would still have a lot of noise and I honestly can't imagine those huge drops being surrounded by those sound tunnels being built which would be rather ridiculously, possible either a all steal or maybe (my personal favourite IMO for the valley) a RMC woody with its metal track filled with sand but even then this is just some wild speculation which many of you won't even care about or have just given up on the concept of a giant coaster in that valley but I just had to get it out there.

I'm sorry of going off topic from Nemesis but I can't help but feel that this retracking job could really be a pawn for much bigger things to follow for the park and that does possibly opens the door again for the cross valley coaster and let's face it, many old ideas for Towers never really die, they are put on the shelf for a future date and find their one making the light of day such as the double lift hill for SW1 eventually ending up on Smiler, the long awaited wooden coaster finally being built and even to some extent the Steampunk Port Discovery concept would in some ways find its way to life in the form of the Moon Voyage Room for the hotel; who is to say that we won't see some sort of coaster crossing the valley in one shape or the other many years down the line? So yeah, rambled on a bit but maybe the negative of Nemesis' iconic roar being muted might be a positive for that monster of a ride to finally appear? Give or take what you think of that.

Do you know what @QTXAdsy? I was thinking the exact same thing!

However, I'm not sure that the resurrected cross valley coaster would be a woodie now that we have Wicker Man. My thought is that we'd see something like a B&M Hyper instead, which would be quieter and less intrusive in terms of supports than the originally proposed cross valley coaster.

The valley being protected is actually a bit of a misapprehension, from what I can tell. I was watching Sanbrooke's video on SW9 the other day, and he explained that the location of the cross valley coaster was actually a fair bit on down from the gardens, and outside of the gardens themselves. He also explained that you actually would be unable to see the cross valley coaster from within the gardens, and the noise from it would likely be no louder than that of other attractions that can be heard from in the gardens (e.g. Rita, Nemesis), so it wouldn't really intrude on the gardens much at all.

 

[rob666]

The cross valley woodie will never happen.
The valley outside the metal fence is part of the gardens, both landscaped woods and ancient woodland, with footpaths and roadways.
Just because they divided the gardens, and blocked them off sadly with a large metal fence, does not mean the land on the other side of the fence is not the landscaped gardens of the Towers, they still are, just very badly neglected.
If you actually walk round and look, there are lots of original landscape features hidden under the sea of bramble
The chance of getting planning permission, because of the woods, ancient pathways, King Ina's Rocks and the old Drive routes, with no less than three public footpaths that go right across the area in both directions, together with the noise and destruction involved in construction, and then the post development noise of the actual ride and screamers to the village, mean that the dream of the geeks will never, ever come to reality.

 

[Poisson]

I wonder if the sand filled spine will behave differently? I'd have guessed it would have a damper effect on the vibrations.

Regarding Cross Valley, god I hope it never happens.

 

[QTXAdsy]

Regarding Cross Valley, god I hope it never happens.

Never thought I'd ever hear that on these forums I must admit.

 

[DistortAMG]

I wonder if the sand filled spine will behave differently? I'd have guessed it would have a damper effect on the vibrations.

Regarding Cross Valley, god I hope it never happens.

I would have thought so yes. Afterall, all sound is, is vibrations.

 

[Matt N]

The cross valley woodie will never happen.
The valley outside the metal fence is part of the gardens, both landscaped woods and ancient woodland, with footpaths and roadways.
Just because they divided the gardens, and blocked them off sadly with a large metal fence, does not mean the land on the other side of the fence is not the landscaped gardens of the Towers, they still are, just very badly neglected.
If you actually walk round and look, there are lots of original landscape features hidden under the sea of bramble
The chance of getting planning permission, because of the woods, ancient pathways, King Ina's Rocks and the old Drive routes, with no less than three public footpaths that go right across the area in both directions, together with the noise and destruction involved in construction, and then the post development noise of the actual ride and screamers to the village, mean that the dream of the geeks will never, ever come to reality.

But if the cross valley coaster was such a dead cert not to happen, why would the park both consider it twice (2003 and 2015 both saw potential plans for a cross valley coaster of some form put before the council) and put it as a potential ride idea on the Long Term Development Plan, which I believe was approved by the council?

Surely if it was never going to happen, the park would just have given up after the initial 2003 proposal was withdrawn?

 

[Matt.GC]

There's been loads of things considered over the years and very few have happened. This is what businesses do, put everything on the table then whittle the options down to a final decision. I wouldn't get over excited about this, it won't ever happen.

 

[Matt N]

There's been loads of things considered over the years and very few have happened. This is what businesses do, put everything on the table then whittle the options down to a final decision. I wouldn't get over excited about this, it won't ever happen.

Oh, absolutely. But my point was more; if the cross valley was such a dead cert to be rejected, or a dead cert not to happen, why would Alton Towers have submitted alternative proposals after that initial 2003 proposal? They have shown intention to go cross valley twice since 2003, both within the LTDP for 2010-2019 (“cross valley ride” was shown as a ride location) and in a screening opinion for a “timber truss structure” in 2015.

Surely if they thought the cross valley coaster didn’t have a cat in hell’s chance of being approved, they wouldn’t have tried the idea again after 2003? Had they floated it once in 2003 and never tried it again, I could see that it might be a bit of a long shot; that would suggest that they tried it once, but it didn’t work, so they never tried it again. But seeing as the park has floated the idea again multiple times since, surely that suggests that the park feels they may be able to get such a ride through planning?

 

[jon81uk]

I don’t think the 2015 was really cross valley, it was more top-of-valley wasn’t it? But then no plans ever got out, so other than removal of Blade for the coaster I don’t think much else was known.

 

[Matt N]

I don’t think the 2015 was really cross valley, it was more top-of-valley wasn’t it? But then no plans ever got out, so other than removal of Blade for the coaster I don’t think much else was known.

Rumours at the time strongly suggested cross valley of some description. It was always suggested that it at very least would have used the valley in some form.

 

[rob666]

Oh, absolutely. But my point was more; if the cross valley was such a dead cert to be rejected, or a dead cert not to happen, why would Alton Towers have submitted alternative proposals after that initial 2003 proposal? They have shown intention to go cross valley twice since 2003, both within the LTDP for 2010-2019 (“cross valley ride” was shown as a ride location) and in a screening opinion for a “timber truss structure” in 2015.

Surely if they thought the cross valley coaster didn’t have a cat in hell’s chance of being approved, they wouldn’t have tried the idea again after 2003? Had they floated it once in 2003 and never tried it again, I could see that it might be a bit of a long shot; that would suggest that they tried it once, but it didn’t work, so they never tried it again. But seeing as the park has floated the idea again multiple times since, surely that suggests that the park feels they may be able to get such a ride through planning?

On both occasions, things never got past early planning because it was obvious that the plans would not be turned into reality without a lot of complaints from the local community, on sight and noise grounds, and on developing an ancient woodland and (badly neglected) landscaped estate.
There was little commercial chance of it happening, so plans were halted very early on.
Dipping a toe in the water to gain an early idea of consent issues is very common.

 

[Matt N]

On both occasions, things never got past early planning because it was obvious that the plans would not be turned into reality without a lot of complaints from the local community, on sight and noise grounds, and on developing an ancient woodland and (badly neglected) landscaped estate.
There was little commercial chance of it happening, so plans were halted very early on.
Dipping a toe in the water to gain an early idea of consent issues is very common.

But the thing is, Rob, I don’t remember hearing that there was any public pushback to the later two. The LTDP was passed with that “cross valley ride” in it, as far as I’m aware, and the only reason I remember 2015 being scrapped was the Smiler incident happening shortly after it was initially submitted.

 

[AT86]

I thought the LTDP was simply for the park to set out their long term plans/options? The fact it was accepted by the council did not mean that all the ideas contained within it were given any kind of approval. Individual planing applications still need to be submitted where required?

They could well have included the cross valley knowing it wasn’t likely to happen, but it would give them some leverage to perhaps build something elsewhere. For example ‘if we build this coaster here then we won’t need to bother with the cross valley coaster’.

 

[Matt N]

I thought the LTDP was simply for the park to set out their long term plans/options? The fact it was accepted by the council did not mean that all the ideas contained within it were given any kind of approval. Individual planing applications still need to be submitted where required?

They could well have included the cross valley knowing it wasn’t likely to happen, but it would give them some leverage to perhaps build something elsewhere. For example ‘if we build this coaster here then we won’t need to bother with the cross valley coaster’.

That is a possibility, but surely including it in the first place suggests that the park hasn’t entirely let the idea go?

 

[rob666]

I haven't actually let go of the chance of winning Mr Universe myself, but I'm letting the younger lads have a chance first.

 

[QTXAdsy]

To bring the thread back on topic to Nemesis, as mentioned maybe the Cross Valley is the ultimate attraction that those I'm certain quarters have wished to take the shelve and dust it off, maybe the soundproof Nemesis will be perhaps the final chance that Towers has to try and get the long term approval for the Cross Valley.

Even if Nemesis' sound is muted which goes down with the local but yet even then that's not enough to get permission for the Cross Valley then only then I feel is then that the dream of a giant coaster in the Valley can finally be scrapped once and for all.

Then again, strange things have always happened at Towers as in I never did believe that a woody would ever get built and yet I was proved wrong otherwise.

Still, I don't think ol' Nemesis will want some giant coaster nearby and will still make a ruckus to make sure that proposal never happens!

 

[Matt N]

For clarity, I’m not trying to say that the cross valley is a dead cert or even overly likely. I do agree that it would likely cause substantial pushback from locals and heritage organisations if it were ever proposed again, and that would likely be its downfall.

However, I was more reinforcing that this idea is far from an enthusiast fallacy that needs to be laughed out the room every time it’s suggested. The fact that the park has proposed it multiple times suggests that it isn’t merely a deluded pipe dream by any means, but rather a genuinely plausible idea. A cross valley coaster could happen; the park wouldn’t have wasted time and money planning the previous proposals if they didn’t think there was a chance of it happening.

And I don’t think the suggestion that @QTXAdsy made (that Nemesis being filled might facilitate the construction of the cross valley or something equally noisy/controversial in the future) is at all implausible, myself. I could definitely see the park using that as leverage in a future planning application (“we quietened Nemesis to offset the noise impact of this new ride we want to build!”).

 

[Squiggs]

But the thing is, Rob, I don’t remember hearing that there was any public pushback to the later two. The LTDP was passed with that “cross valley ride” in it, as far as I’m aware, and the only reason I remember 2015 being scrapped was the Smiler incident happening shortly after it was initially submitted.

Only one attempt has ever been made at permission for a cross valley ride, the one in 2003. And you have to suspect that the 2003 plans were withdrawn was so that they weren't out-right rejected, which would have caused the park other headaches down the line. No coaster plans were submitted to the council in 2015 for planning permission, unless you count Galactica.

As @AT86 mentioned, the LTDP was not related to getting permission for anything, so you really have to take any "details" in there with a pinch of salt. The document is designed to lay out the extremes of what could happen in the park, with the ultimate goal of making the "middle of the road" path seem most appealing. There is a reasonable chance that a cross valley ride was mentioned simply as a callback to the fact the 2003 plan exist, and to make any coaster they installed instead seem much more reasonable.

That said, there are clearly creative types around Merlin, who would dearly like to put a coaster in the valley, but I think the past few posts have got a good summary of why that is extremely unlikely to happen, given the choice between it ploughing through a listed garden, an ancient woodland or historic battleground. From a noise perspective, it is also worth pointing out that the valley is like a giant echo chamber, so I'm not sure if there's enough noise-cancelling tech in the world to silence a coaster running through it - for context on a still day you can hear the soundtrack from Towers Street all the way down the gardens and a good distance into the woodland beyond.

In comparison, I'm not too sure that the noise impact of Nemesis is significant enough for it to play to the park's advantage with the locals once it is quieter - I'm not sure anyone in the local villages will be able to hear the difference, since Nemesis' roar is reasonably self-contained in its pit - not like the Beast or more notoriously the Thunder Looper.

 

[Matt N]

With regard to 2015; I thought they mentioned a “timber truss structure” in Forbidden Valley, which would have used the valley, to the council in some capacity?

Perhaps it wasn’t a full planning application, but I definitely remember something official coming out along those lines, and I remember the rumour mill strongly suggesting that it was a revival of the cross valley coaster. We never got a full planning application due to the Smiler incident seeing it get cancelled and replaced with Wicker Man, as far as I can tell.